I have a dog with a history of UTI issues.

She has been on Venison and Potato for about 18 months with no problems. (thank you Dog God Sirius).

I've heard so many nightmare stories about food related problems, and experienced more than my share. One of my other dogs is on the same thing because of a wheat allergy. My third, has just switched to it, for my peace of mind.

You might try Google for additional suggestions.

SG

I'm sure Meghane will weigh in here.

Good advice given on this forum (by laurie, about cats!) was to give more wet food and less dry food. The more hydration of the kidneys, the better; and dry food is not as hydrating.

Depending on the type of stone or crystals the urine pH may need to be adjusted up or down. For the majority of UTIs, an acidic pH is better to discourage bacterial growth and struvite formation. Vitamin C is excreted through the kidneys into the bladder and acidifies the urine. It also strengthens the lining of the bladder and has anti-inflammitory properties for the urinary tract.

But ... All this is speculation for your situation. Once the stone analysis is back, the pathologist who made the analysis should be contacted for diet recommendations to decrease the chances of recurrance of stone formation. Sometimes it is an intrinsic metabolic situation in the patient, and try as we may, stones will be formed again in the future.

The diet may need to be restricted in protein, calcium, phosphates, pH adjusted up or down .... Depends what the pathologist finds.

The analysis came back and her stones were 100% struvite. We switched her to the duck and potato yesterday.

As someone who tried with all my might to find a decent high quality food for my animals, I am struggling with keeping her on a food with poor quality. Of course if this is my only option, I will keep her on it. And it is better quality than the SO, atleast.

Hoping Meghane can still weigh in on this, and atleast put my mind at east about the food.

For struvite control you need a diet that has reduced phosphorus and reduced levels of magnesium and protein as well as maintaining an acidic pH. All these components are important to reduce the chances of new crystal or stone formation. Sometimes the metabolism of a patient will ~over-ride~ any dietary attempts to change things and they will still form stones ... although delayed.

Purina makes a line of prescription foods too. Ask your veterinarian what is best for the over all health of your pet.

Chickadee, I had two cats (male and female) suffer from FUS. It was very stressful for me, trying to keep it under control, and for the cats, whose pain, health and comfort I was trying to manage.

With my current cats, in an attempt to avoid these kinds of problems (crystals, stones) I have put them on a predominantly canned food diet, with water added. The idea is to keep their UT flushed.

What do you think of that, as a possible preventative?

I did not mean to hijack this thread!

That sounds like a *very* sound plan! By giving them the canned food they are already taking in more water. I think it was a study by Cornell or The Ohio State University that found the ~ash~ content isn't that critical for FUS.

 In order to have crystals form just because of the magnesium content in the food, the patient will develop metabolic bone changes first! It's all an interaction between the patient's metabolism, pH, mineral content and water intake. Probably lots more factors too but that's enough of a list.

To get kitties to drink more water, simply topping off their water dish seems to fascinate them and they'll drink more. Theres also those kitty water fountains that move water causing cats to take in more water.

Vitamin C will acidify the urine and make the most common type of crystals dissolve or not form in the first place. It also strengthens the lining of the bladder and has anti-inflammitory properties for the urinary tract. Bacteria that normally infect the urinary tract prefer an alkaline pH too. By altering the pH, it is more difficult for the bacteria to set up housekeeping in the urinary tract.

There's diets like Purina Special Care and similar that specifically acidify the urine to decrease the chances of FUS.

Are you sure they have recurring FUS and not something like an Interstitial Cystitis? That's a whole other creature!

Thanks for the information.

Again, sorry to hijack this thread!

I now have a healthy male and a healthy female with no problem. The cats I was referring to were:

1. Finney, adult male with crystals and blockage. Change of food to Prescription diet and supplements did no work so after the third blockage, he got a PU. He is now dead from other causes.

2. Sofie, at 2, had bouts of Insterstitial Cystitis, which was difficult to treat, and then crystals, a few years later. She would not eat wet food, but did drink. I lost her too. Could find nothing on necopsy.

So with my 2 cats now, I am trying to preclude any UT problems. This is prophylactic. I do add water to their food, so it is soupy.

Adding vitamin C: Can that be done prophylactically? Which form? Do you think the taste will be bitter for them.

I very much appreciate your thoughts on the matter! I hope other people take this all to heart. My vets never recommended wet food when my cats were sick! I had to figure it out on my own.

In gen most vets are terrible at foods because a healthy fed dog or cat has very little market value- think of it if your pet ate a raw or higher end pet food she would never have to have dental work,blood tests/ect. Only thing you'd need for a spayed dog would be heart worm/flea/tick and yearly/bi yearly shots.

Innova EVO is really good,along with Orijen, ziwi peak, Instincts, and raw food diets. but if you go raw be careful and research.

Struvite stones are caused by urinary tract infections with bacteria that are protease-splitters which cause a rise in urinary pH. If you eliminate the source of infection, then you eliminate the cause of the stones.

My own Max is a repeat struvite stone-former. He's had numerous upper and lower urinary tract infections, one of which was so bad he lost a kidney due to an abscess. He doesn't show signs of UTIs like most dogs- when he had the kidney abscess he peed something that looked like root beer, but no increased frequency or peeing in the house or anything. Just one day peed root beer. Several urine cultures and appropriate courses of antibiotics later, he still lost a kidney because it was abscessed. Now I CULTURE his urine every couple of months to make sure he's OK because he is just not helpful in showing me he has an infection.

For struvite stoners, it is SO important to follow up with urine cultures. My Max had his kidney removed in 2006, then May 2007 he blocked with struvites because I wasn't told to follow up (this is all stuff I've learned later through experience and talking with experts). October 2007 he had stones again because I didn't know then what I know now. Here's my free advice that will cost you a couple of urine cultures but possibly save your dog from repeated stones- GET FREQUENT CULTURES. I'm talking once a month for a year- ridiculous I know, but I swear by urine cultures. i can look at a urinalysis until forever and never see evidence of an infection and send the same sample to a lab and have them grow stuff. And when I say "stuff" I mean bacteria that predispose your dog to forming struvite stones.

There is no reason to place a dog on a special diet or urine acidifiers for struvite crystals (note I said CRYSTALS). They are normal in many dogs. STONES are caused by bacteria, so your dog needs to have his urine cultured to make sure he doesn't have any bacteria, and if he does have an infection to find the best antibiotic for it.

Max is now on urine cultures every couple of months because he has proven to be clean last year. That wasn't the case for several months following his stone issues, even though clinically he was normal and the UAs were normal. CULTURE the urine.

Did I mention I think you should CULTURE the urine? Follow up and make SURE the infection is gone. If your dog had struvite stones, he had an infection, and those stones will come right back unless you eliminate the infection. Take it from me and the amazing uni-kidney Max, CULTURE the urine!

Another great informative post, Dr. Meghane! :-) I'd sure hope there a C+S done for the urine but as I'm sure you've experienced too ... often the client declines it and you're forced to do one of those ~best guess~ treatment options. Unfortunately people often can't spend the $$ for one culture and forget multiple cultures so one can only try to do their best within the constraints the client allows us.

It's *REALLY* frustrating when there's a stone culture and the lab can't identify a specific nidus or worse ... no bacteria! We had one lady who's cat was developing bladder stones because she was a vegetarian and forced her cat into a vegeterian diet. After the second surgery she was annoyed with US because her cat kept developing stones. She wasn't listening to our diet recommendations so referred her to OSU for a nutrition consult. She didn't listen to them either. :-( *~*~*~*~*~*

Hi Elly.

Sorry you lost your kitties. :*( Pee issues can be so very frustrating for everyone. When I was an animal tech. a thousand years ago one of my cats had FUS, was obstructed BIG TIME, and had the PU surgery. He still had crystals and blood in his urine. We did repeated cultures, dye studies of the urinary tract ... no improvement. Finally we went to Ohio State Univ. and met with Dr. Chew, the kitty pee problem guru. He too did all we had done and concluded there was NO reason why my cat should have crystals and blood in the urine.

All these years later I remember his asking me, "Do you want to try some voodoo medicine? ... Give your cat Vit. C daily ..." (For the reasons I mentioned earlier) "... and he'll be fine." What did we have to lose?

Woody got Vit. C , 100mg. tablet once a day for 17 years! If we miss one dose, he'd have blood in the urine for 3 consecutive days. Of course, bear in mind, every kitty is different but that's what worked for my kitty early on and I have no problem recommending it for my patients either, unless there's other medical issues to consider.

As Dr. Meghane stated, the struvite crystals can be normal for dogs but, especially in male kitties, they can be a real risk for problems. I tend to think that very early castration of the male cats could predispose them to obstruction because the urethra doesn't have a chance to develop more fully. That's just my own personal theory from observation of the male patients who are obstructed.

As with anything, PLEASE consult YOUR veterinarian BEFORE changing anything for your kitty! Don't take the word of a faceless, nameless me when it comes to your pets health! Your vet. and you know your kitty better than anyone and you need to make sure any changes are safe for them. :-)

Thank you Meghane!

You're a good teacher - when Coda had her first UTI last year, you mentioned ordering a culture, and it's stuck with me. It was one of the first things that came out of my mouth when I talked to the vet this time. Unfortunately she was so bad they were unable to draw any urine from her because she was urinating small amounts every 20 minutes or so. Anything that went in the bladder immediately came out. They tried all day long.

However, they said when I take her in for her follow up appointment and urinalysis they will culture it then. I really like this vet because they pretty much do whatever I ask them to - even if sometimes it seems like they think it's unnecessary, they still do it to humor me if I ask them to.

So if I am understanding this - there is no reason to keep her urine PH at a certain level via food - because struvite stones form with infection and bacteria, not just out of nowhere?

I will mention this when I take her in in two weeks. Thanks again!

So Meghane, do you think we should get a culture of our dog's urine? : )

Meghane and Chickadeedeedee, thank you for your input!

Chickadeedeedee, I lost a cat to FUS. I never want to go through that again, it broke my heart. I have two young male rescue cats, can Vit C be used a preventative? and what's a good food for cats to prevent this occurring in the future?

Meghane, how would you determine/know when a dog has stone's? What are the symptoms?

Edna

Edna -

A lot of dogs don't show symptoms for stones, infact often stones are found when dogs come in for other reasons, or their yearly check up. Had my dog not gotten a UTI, I don't know if we would've caught her stones at all.

But, symptoms can be painful urination, straining to urinate, urinating only small amounts, frequently, blood in the urine, passing stones, or straining to urinate with no result. If the last one happens, it's an emergency.

Also, dogs may have a sensitive stomach when you palpitate the bladder. Sometimes they will also be lethargic and have less of an appetite.

As far as how they figure out at the vet that stones are present - they use an x-ray. Some stones who up on their own in an x-ray, other don't, so they use dye to make them show up.

Hi Edna.

I'm so sorry you lost your kitty! It is a horrible condition. We've had dozens of cats as pets and only one had FUS and probably interstitial cystitis too. Chances are good that you will not need to go through the FUS with your future kitties.

Part of my standard care for FUS patients is a Vit. C injection during the initial treatment/ catheterization / fluids / hosp... and recommend either to give Vit. C or use an acidifying diet. I've been a small animal and exotics veterinarian for 22 years and have had less than a handfull of patients return obstructed. When they did ... the owners had lapsed in giving the Vit. C by their own admission. Once we get things right ... they didn't lapse again.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Vit. C is the magic bullet for preventing FUS. It will acidify to urine and struvite crystals need a more alkaline pH to form. Those crystals look like broken glass under a microscope and they *have* to cause some pain and irritation as they're floating around in the bladder or being passed through the urethra.

I'd think it's better to not have them if we can tweak the system a little. Even if it's a female, with less chance to become obstructed, the irritation that is caused by the crystals would also give an avenue for bacteria to set up house keeping. Acidifying the urine makes it tougher for the most common bacteria in the urinary tract to survive too.

Purina Special Care and a Friskies formulation for urinary tract care are formulated to acidify the urine. Science Diet CD, for dogs and cats, does the same to prevent struvite stone and crystal formation. The stone by the decreased bacterial count and the crystals by the lower pH.

Vit. C is a fairly safe way to acidify the urine. We give our cats 100 mg. once a day. More than 250 mg. is NOT recommended and will likely cause the pet to vomit because the stomach becomes too acidic! We give it to our dogs at a higher dose based on weight.

As with anything concerning the health of your pet, please don't take the word of some annonymous someone like me who may have the best of intentions. PLEASE discuss any changes with your pets diet or other recommendations with YOUR veterinarian first. Safety first for you and your pets.

You got it munkos! It can be difficult to get urine when the patient is so painful as to urinate small amounts all the time. Then I do my best guess and hope to culture at the end of the antibiotic course, assuming resolution of clinical signs. I'm lucky because we have ultrasound and I can use it to find even a TINY bladder. Obviously if the problem doesn't go away, I try to culture earlier. But you are correct, you don't need to worry about acidifying the urine, since the infection caused the pH to go up. Get rid of the infection, the pH goes to normal, and no problems. Of course, even if the pH never goes back to normal, you still don't have to worry about struvite stones if there is no infection.

My Aleksander for whatever reason had a urine pH of 9 his whole life. Never had a stone or even crystals in his urine. Tried acidifying with Vitamin C but it didn't work (although I think it has some anti-inflammatory effects especially in cats), then gave up and stopped worrying about it. Animals on high protein diets tend to have higher urine pH.

I've found that telling people what I NEED to do is a very effective way to increase compliance. In other words, I don't give people the option to culture or not, depending on the circumstances. Female dog with mild UTI, I may just use best guess Abx and recheck a UA. Male dogs I like to culture because they shouldn't be able to get an ascending UTI due to anatomy (much longer pathway for bacteria to colonize the bladder than in females). Also if there are serious clinical signs such as straining or blood, or if the patient has repeated infections or infections that never really resolve, I just tell the clients that we need a culture. 99% of the time, they do it, and NO, I do NOT have rich clients. However they understand the value of the culture when I take the time to explain it to them. They may not be rich, but they aren't stupid either, they just need someone to explain how a culture can save money in the long run. They generally appreciate spending a little more now rather than wasting money on useless Abx and still need a culture when the UTI doesn't go sway.

Cats are a *completely* different story when it comes to stones and urinary issues. As my anatomy teachers were fond of saying "A cat is not a small dog." It was even a fill in the blank test question once! We can talk FUS in another post, but it gets confusing switching back and forth between cats and dogs with urinary issues in one discussion. For me at least :)