John

Sorry, I'm new to this lingo. Perhaps its the clip system? I'm not sure. The boards are grooved on the side and in between are donut-shaped plastic parts. I understand the hole in the middle of the donut is for the screw to go through into the joist. But the contractor didn't put any screws through these donuts. Instead, he glued the boards to the joists and then also screwed them directly to the joists.

I think 1/8" may be a big gap to start with if the ipe is air dried. My supplier recommended 1/16", I used that and sometimes 0 gap in places where needed to keep boards straight. Most of my 0 gaps have already opened up after 2 weeks.

Kiln dried is another issue...

Were the boards glued, clip sytem with no screws there, but face screwed?

I think that Elk Trading kiln dries their wood. Then it sat outside for three weeks as well..

The boards were glued, clip system with screws drilled through boards rather than through clips, no face screws.

I just went to the Banner Elk website

http://www.ipedeckingsource.com/Ipe-installation.htm

Their ipe is air dried and they recommend a 1/16" gap.

If the screws were not into the face or into the clips, were they into the grooves on the sides of the ipe? Kind of like a toe nail?

Yes, into grooves on side.

Now that is an intesting way to do it, use the clips but dont use them. Like installing T&G material screw thru the groove that being a little different than T&G where you screw thru the T.

Man thats a mess using the clips is a gamble anyway but nonusing them is really asking for trouble.There is no one to yell at all a person can do is take it all up start again. Ipe has got to be fastened to the joist system in a Very Secure way. J

Wood expands and contracts with changes in moisture content.
There is no practical way to stop this.
You can glue and screw till the cows come home, but the boards are going to change shape.
If you use enough fasteners you WILL cause splitting to occur as the wood shrinks against the immobile fasteners.
The visible damage occurs during the shrink (drying out) portion of the cycle, but less visible damage occurs when the wood expands between fasteners. The wood cells are crushed and when the wood then dries it becomes loose and splits.

If you can post some pictures, there may be more helpful advice available. The easiest way to post pictures may be to upload them to photobucket.com, and then copy the link for each picture into this post.

My guess is that 3 things occurred, the boards shrunk after installed (normal for air dried and potentially better than swelling) , the gaps were big to start (over 1/16"), and the fastening failed and allowed the boards to bow the way they wanted to. For my third assumption to be correct, where the large gaps occurred, there are probably smaller gaps 1 board over.

Does any of this seem correct?

This is exactly why I would not use any clip system for building decks. Any wood left in full sun will move more than wood in covered areas. The architect is dead wrong, the boards would have contracted no matter if those clips were screwed down or not.

Al

Yes, Alb1k, the gaps were big to start - over 1/16. I believe the contractor did them at 3/16. But no, where the gaps are big, there are often big gaps next to it.
My contractor is now proposing re-doing deck with another type of clip. I'm not sure what it's called - not the ipe clip but the original one the Ipe Clip is based on, I believe the model number is 007 (not sure of brand, just remember that Bond number.) But it's black and oblong and now comes with black stainless screws to match clip. He plans to use glue again and also to stain bottom of boards this time. He's going to do a 3/16 gap. He's also going to re-lay most of the boards in the same spots. He feels that the boards have been down long enough now that most of them have acclimated and they'll be less shrinking and/or expanding. But he'll also have to replace a couple of the boards which shrunk the most because they're bowed. Does this make sense? If we don't use clips what do we do? We don't want plugs - we don't like the way they look. Contractor says tiger clips and metal systems may damage or stain wood - and are very expensive and time consuming to install. Given his error, I could push for them if that's best solution...

DM

Digm,
Let me get this right...your deck is screwed up because your builder used inferior hidden fasteners and set large gaps between the boards. Now you want him to rip up all the boards, and install them again with inferior hidden fasteners, and large gaps between the boards...are you freakin kidding?

If you don't want to screw up again...screw those boards down this time...or screw them down when you build your deck the third time. Set the gap at 1/16".

use 2.5" trimhead Headcote screws, or 2 3/8" #10 NoCoRode (from mcfeelys.com...see link) and plug the screwholes. You could also use the 2.5" #8 deck screws from home despot (if you want to save some money)

Just my opinion, but I'm sticking to it.

steve

Here is a link that might be useful: good screws

I can add if you put finish on the bottom of the decking the adhesive will not take. Other than that I could not agree with Steve any more. Face Fasten that decking and forget using any of the clips. J

Thanks guys. Very helpful. I just want to see what a deck with these screws looks like. I've looked at your site, Brooklyndecks, but can't get a sense of how the screws look on those decks - or how they age... I'm concerned the plugs may pop out when the wood expands? Or not match well when stained? We currently have a few plugs at the first board and they are pretty visible.
Digm

Brooklyndecks - I just saw your response on the other thread regarding plugs = thanks. Whats your method for staining them and installing? How often do you have to resand? Do you have any photos of a deck done with this method (or headcoated screws)?

Also, do you think improper installation - not screwing the clips into the wood could be to blame for my gaps? Or is it all due to wood shrinkage?

DM,

Because you used the clips, you had large gaps to begin with, and then they got bigger as the wood shrunk. I start with 1/16", and the gaps might open to 1/8". The clip system isn't gonna stop wood from bowing or cupping, and that would make the gaps look bigger, or not uniform.

here are a couple of pics. one is a plugged deck. the other has headcote screws

{{!gwi}}
{{!gwi}}

Total Bad Steve, You The Man !!! J

I just finished reading all the posts concerning this expanding gap issue with the ipe and I don't get it. I don't think any one problem that was mentioned is THE problem. I think it's a combination of everything the contractor did and did not do. I say this because I personally installed 500 sq ft of ipe while building our new back porch using the Mini Ebty clip system. It was awesome. The boards were kiln dried 4/4 boards (finished size 3/4), pregrooved both sides. All boards were 12' in length. I had to use the bow wrench on almost every board to get them installed perfectly straight. I did NOT use any glue (too messy). They've been down over 6 months and I have very SLIGHT movement in only 2 boards. I had never worked with ipe before, nor had I ever built a porch and to top it off, I'm a 5'1" tall female. You're contractor must have other issues. If you would like to see a picture of our porch I would be happy to email one to you if you'll send me your email address. I tried to attach one here and couldn't get adobe to cooperate (sorry!).
Pat
PS: I love Steve's deck with the stairs coming up the side. Very nice!

Here's a link where you can view a couple pix of our ipe porch floor -ours is the second group of project photos down, click on the photo to enlarge. (just cut and paste to your browser). Pat

http://daveosborne.com/dave/photos/index.php?PHPSESSID=5db23f30499a6c64a191c5fb7c7ed8cd

Thanks Pat. Deck looks great. Although I notice it looks like it doesn't get a lot of sunlight? Did you use 3/32 EBTY clips? I'm still a bit unclear on the gap issue - I guess the clips determine the gap and you just crank the boards as tight as possible? Also, I understand that EBTY recommends glue?

Hi digm - sorry it's taken me this long to respond, I didn't receive a notification email of your posting!
About 3/4 of the deck on the far side gets heavy duty sun exposure about 6 hours a day and as the day goes on (and the world turns) the other deck (along the windows) gets the same amount of afternoon sun, so yes, it gets lots of sun exposure, also we have lots of wind blown rain here. I mispoke in my previous posting - the ipe was AIR dried, not kiln dried, I don't know what I was thinking when I said that. yes, the 'Mini EbTy' (actual name on the box) I believe are the 3/32. They worked great and yes, the instructions say to use the glue. I searched out several different web forums re EbTy and found most people who reported using the EbTy clips did NOT use the glue. Only the most fastidious of the lot used the glue. I can tell you, if I had used it I would most likely still be out there permanently stuck to those boards!!! I also learned an entirely new language while installing that went something like this @!!$X*%!....:) While the end product looks beautiful (use a cleaner and brightener then apply Messmer's per instructions) it was a real challenge for me to get the boards to submit. It's a pleasure to look at, relax on and was well worth the effort.
Pat

From Garden Web (Pat 2007 2007: "While the end product looks beautiful (use a cleaner and brightener then apply Messmer's per instructions)"
Pat: Your deck looks beautiful and hopefully ours will look as good. We have decided on using Ipe based on great information from this site. However, we have never seen Ipe. Could you clarify for me the following: 1. the boards looked rather ugly before you finished them - is that their natural color before you stained them? 2. If we decide not to stain them it's hard for me to see them turn to a natural grey color later based on what they looked liked originally. 3. Now if we stain them, would you please explain what you mean by "cleaner and brightner" (and what products did you use?) and what stain did you use re Messmer's? I will have to explain all this to the contractor. Thank you so much! Mandy

The pictures don't do the natural color of ipe justice, it's actually quite beautiful unfinished. The wood in the photo probably just needed to be washed. It is tough to imagine that it would turn "silver" but it does with enough weather and time. While walking across the brooklyn bridge I couldn't actually tell what the wood walkway was made out of but it was Ipe. The "cleaner and brightener" is a product used to clean and PH balance the wood to receive stain, many companies make them, you'll see references here to a product called RAD or "Restore-A-Deck" which does those things. Do lots of reasearch if you decide to stain and babysit your contractor when he does it. It can be a lot of work to remove a poorly chosen finish.