I have been looking at Blum's Dynamic Space materials while laying out a freinds's kitchen and generally if you have to go further out with an element it would be consumables (ie fridge and pantry) but that seems like a bit of a trek and in that layout the peninsula is in the logical path between the prep zone (by the cooktop) and the fridge.

I don't think splitting you cooking zone by having the ovens in that separate space is such a terrific idea and I don't see having a prep sink out there as being of much use (fridge with water in the door near the eating area doesn't seem so bad however - though still a little far away from the main kitchen).

Definitely need some adjusting (I think that new area isn't helping). I'll leave that to the more skilled layout folks.

I think a version of the second option is the best but needs a lot of fine tuning.

For instance, you have double ovens where I would normally place the fridge. Are you married to the need for doubles? Do a lot of baking or? It would free up a lot of space there if you could do either a range with the small/big oven as part of it or if a regular oven and say a toaster oven would work well.

Amd you said you'd like a prep sink. Is it enough to simply have a sink that provides access for two or ? Does it have to be placed under the window? (for that matter can the window get larger?) I guess what I'm saying is "Is the goal two ovens or room for two meals? Is the goal two sinks or room for two cooks?" I don't think those are necessarily the same answers.

The "laundry" area could become a simple bar area with a beverage fridge/small sink below and storage above if you needed it. But tall pantries would be cheaper if you don't need the space. You said it's got water and electrical from the laundry. Does it only have 240 (the big plug) or is there 120 (the small plug) as well?

Thanks caryscott and morgne for your responses to my kitchen layout dilemma. Your feedback gives me alot to contemplate. The beverage center across from the table might be a possibility with the refrigerator placed where the ovens are in design 2. I'm flexible with the double ovens, although I'd like to try a wall oven and store pots and pans under the cooktop. The other thing I'm thinking about with design 2, is placing the refrigerator across from the table, and possibly adding a refrigerator drawer somewhere in the U-area. I'd like to minimize the traffic in the work area around the sink. The prep sink would probably be better on the peninsula somewhere. The thought of a prep sink came about because of the availability of water in the pantry/laundry hookup area across from the table. Any other thoughts are greatly appreciated!!

Just looking at this quickly -- if you put the fridge where you have the ovens in #2, you will have to use a smaller fridge (27-30") or push the sink down and finesse the window issue. Whatever you do, the fridge needs to be in the main cooking area. Use a drawer for the secondary role.

If you want a larger fridge (33-36") and keep the sink and window centered, you could place it on the other side of that dining room door and put the cooktop either in the peninsula or in that corner on the diagonal. Use the corner on the fridge for a cabinet to the counter to get use of that space above. You could leave space for a stacked washer and dryer plus a beverage center oppposite the table.

{{!gwi}}
And yes, I am crazy.

Do you have a sketch of the house layout as a total? From the pics above it looks like you have a dining area on both the left and right of the kitchen that are pretty good sized. Is that right?

Would this be weird? And it doesn't solve the problem of open fridge in the way of traffic to the dining room...Does that happen often? Seems like it might be a minor compromise if you can otherwise get a layout you like.

Morgne makes a good point...Do you need 2 dining table areas?

Rhome thanks for your suggestions. The washer and dryer are in the basement and will stay there. I'm concerned that putting the refrigerator in that u-area would make the area very crowded. Although, it's definately a thought worth considering especially with a tall cabinet next to it. My options with Design 2 would be to add a refrigerated drawer in the u-area or to switch the location of the ovens and refrigerator and add a beverage center next to the ovens. I guess I could opt for a slide in stove in the u-area and have a dedicated pantry/ beverage/snack area across from the table. Any other thoughts?

Biorepanic and Rhome410 thank you SO MUCH for all your help. Your suggestions are giving me other ideas to consider. I'm now wondering about the galley style (design 3). It would give me more floor space, however, it would only give me 20" on either side of the cooktop. I feel like I would need more work space. Perhaps a cabinet or cart on wheels might work. I could move the cart to the wall by the refrigerator if it's in the way, or not use it at all. With this galley setup I'm also a little bothered by the unused wall space that backs up to the living room. I could, as suggested, put the refrigerator where the ovens are but then it blocks the doorway to the dining room (probably only a big problem during the holidays). With a double door refrigerator I'd have to move the dishwasher to the left of the sink. I'm gathering from all of the comments above that people feel strongly that I should keep the working triangle in tack and not move the refrigerator or ovens to the pantry area. Any other thoughts?

Sorry to be negative...The fridge won't work where you have it, because you won't be able to open the door against the wall...Unless it's a one-door fridge and the hinges are on the stove side, which would make it difficult to get into and get things out of. A 20" cart would just be an aggravation for me with things falling off the back side, or having to work too hard to make sure that didn't happen. And it would always be in the path to the sink. Bump-crash-Ow!-Grrr.

I don't think the pantry/dinette area is too far for the fridge, as long as it was at the kitchen end of the wall. One thing that makes it awkward is the offset walls...If the other wall was in line with the stove wall, it would seem to be more comfortable and make more sense. I would actually consider building the kitchen wall out to make it even...But the aisle is still pretty wide, even with that. Still thinking...

This is a small detail, but on the latest layout, I would think about if you will really use the extra sink, especially as a prep sink, so far away from the refrig. We currently have one in a similar location pretty far from the refrig. In 10 years I have never used it as a prep sink. Perhaps if you entertain and serve mixed drinks it might sometimes function as a bar sink...but again, ours was rarely used for this. (A pitcher of cold water would work just as well when needed!) I would have rather had that space for more open counter area or for pantry storage. The most it was ever used for was to fill it with ice and put beer and soda in it for a party b/c we didn't have a bev fridge. In the remodel we will of course still have the water lines available, and even additional water lines b/c we are removing an old laundry area...but we're not putting in sink just to make use of the water lines.

It might too much of a change, but there is something about that galley layout with the big pantry I like....on paper is looks very "clean" - like there would be good flow from dining room, through kitchen and all around the other table. Opens up and shows off the bay window.

Playing around some more:

It's hard to see, but that says 'backsplash storage' by the stove. I've seen it in a house near us...It serves as appliance garages or whatever. You could just run it up to the ceiling instead of having uppers, or put uppers in in front, as I have them drawn.

I moved the prep sink in a 30" deep peninsula...Close to the dinette and to the stove/prep area of the kitchen.

Don't really like how the ovens open into the dining room doorway, but couldn't come up with a better answer without crowding the cooktop.

going back to your design #2, how about putting the cook top on the corner by the pennisula and the double ovens in the other corner (by LR wall). you could put the fridge at the end of that counter space (just inside the doorway).

that'd make good use of both corner areas - they are such a pain anyway. the counter space between the 2 would be a working/landing area for both. If you want, you could put a small prep sink there or between the fridge and the double ovens.
I wouldn't like have the fridge way over by the table (and having to cross over a hall area to do it). if you don't need that area for the w/d you could open it up with lots of cabinets and countertop as storage, serving area (with small uc drink fridge / or drawer).

If you do need it for w/d area - maybe you could still use part of it for cabinests/serving/drink area.

Desertsteph, Unfortunately, the wall that backs up to the living room is only 66" and wonÂt accommodate a corner cooktop and the refrigerator.

rhome410 Thanks again for your input. If I put the refrigerator against the wall (design 3) IÂd have to allow a few inches of clearance for the handle which is a waste of space. I agree the cart might be a nuisance. Your thought of the refrigerator in the pantry area at the end of the wall is OK except that IÂd probably prefer a landing area and a more open look next to the refrigerator / hallway. If I were to use a Z edge cabinet (24 or 30") it might balance out the offset walls. Your idea of building the kitchen wall out 12" might work. Does that "backsplash storage" mean that the base cabinets and counter would then be 12" deeper. Is it an open area? It sounds quite interesting. My other thought is to use the 12" of dead space with a pull out pantry accessed through the hall.

To confuse things even more I added design 5. My family is ready to disown me because figuring out a decent layout for this kitchen has been a nightmare. IÂve been working on it for two years. ItÂs very frustrating!

Design 4

Design 5

I have no idea what a Z-angle end is! It's probably something obvious, but no image is coming to me...

Design 4 is just too separated and too far to run.

I like #5, because I think that counter in front of the ovens would be useful for baking and for the cooking area. The downside is that it's still a longer than optimum distance between sink and stove. Get things out of the fridge drawers...go 8 ft across to the sink...drip back across floor with washed veggies to prep and cook...Get pot out from under cooktop and take across to sink to fill...come back to stove....go back to sink to drain...and probably back to stove. Not the worst thing someone has had to put up with, but not the best. I wonder if a sink next to the fridge would help. Takes up your landing space, though, and you're constantly running across the entry doorway.

Speaking of fridge landing space: If you have a French door or side-by-side fridge, your best landing space is across from it, since the open doors block the side counters.

With the plan from earlier today (with the cart), you'd need more than just the few inches between fridge and wall for the handle. In order to pull out drawers past the shelves on the door, you need to open the door significantly more than 90 degrees, requiring more like 6-12 inches, sometimes more, between fridge and wall.

The backsplash storage I saw just had doors that opened under the uppers to an area behind the wall. I don't think the cabinets were extra deep. I supposed the counter did run deep and back to the wall behind. The pantry pullout into the hall is a good idea, too, if you like that type of storage and have a use for it.

I know it doesn't look like it, but its 11.66 feet front the ref to the sink and about 12 feet doing ref to range. Its 8 feet every time you have to schlep a pot of water.

Double the amounts for round trips.
So... need a piece of celery for your stew?, walk about 31 feet - range to ref to sink to range. Milk for a cream sauce - 36 feet from ref to range to ref.

A z angle cabinet is used on the end of a run for ease of passing around a corner. It's an alternative to using a harsh straight diagonal cabinet. If that makes sense. The biggest problem in my mind is the refrigerator location. In design 1, I kept it where it is now (by the hallway) and placed the cooktop on the diagonal. This allowed for a 30" workspace between the refrigerator and cooktop. However, I'm wasting alot of wall space by doing that, plus I feel claustrophobic with the refrig there. Although by eliminating the penninsula maybe it would be an improvement. Yikes!

bmorepanic, I see what your saying. Would it work if I placed the refrig next to the dining room on the wall with the sink and increased the doorway opening to 42". Right now the wall is 29" and the opening is 30". It would be tight when we used the dining room but that's not too often. It's a load-bearing wall so I'm not sure if I can change it. I guess I'd just be eliminating a couple of 2x4's and a little bit of moulding.

What if you were to make a modified U shape on the bottom of the kitchen?

It seems to me that you are working to get more stuff into a small space but not thinking about how you will use it. Having your pantry at the furthest point possible or a fridge in what is essentially another room is not good work flow and I don't think you'd be happy trying to work with it. That's what bmore is trying to point out. I've had better arrangements and hated them and the running track feeling of cooking dinner.

I've tried to come up with something better, but I'm not coming up with anything significantly better than what I suggested or what has been posted in rhome's and bmore's April 20th drawings.

Rhome's is not a classic layout, but it gives you separated cooking and clean-up zones. You have a couple of good prep areas by the sink and next to the ovens -- as well as a smaller area next to the cooktop. If you wanted to push that cooking zone out even 4-6 inches, you could have a "cantry" or shallow storage there too. With an open end beside the ovens, you keep some of the open feeling. The more I look at it, the more I like her approach.

Bmore gives you an efficient galley with a tremendous pantry for loads of storage. That space could be configured in many ways. It doesn't give you double ovens. I had a deep walk-in pantry once -- mine was across a hall from the rest of the kitchen. I came to hate it because it was like bmore pointed out -- running track to cook anything. What bmore has drawn is much better than what I had, but I still have some reservations about that pantry for the way I use my kitchen.

I don't know that you really have room for a second refrigerator to make sense. Getting a cooktop and double ovens is a push in a small kitchen. Same for a prep sink -- and in an efficient work space, you may not find that you need them.

I would look hard at what you really need and what are just wants. Why do you want the wants? Will they really change the way you work and live in your home or are they things you think would be neat to have? Extras are nice if you have the space and budget for them, but the most important thing is to have a good place to work where everything has a location that makes sense.

I worked on my kitchen ideas for close to 4 years. Better to spend your time working things out until you know you have something that is worth the mess and expense. Even then, you will question what you were thinking when the work begins.

lascatx, I am thrilled with all of the feedback everyone has been offering. I have been living without a working oven for 2 years, the dishwasher broke last year and I finally replaced it. I agree with you that I have to have the best plan that works regardless of how long it takes, but I feel like I've spent too much time on this project already. That said, I could get a range if it makes more sense. The galley setup is nice and so is the u-shape but in both arrangements I'm struggling with the location of the refrigerator.

No pantry and the wide aisle problem is still here, but it's a different idea to throw on the table:

Baking/buffet/secondary prep area by table and across from ovens, sink/fridge/stove/oven in same room, and cleanup and dishes area by table. Plenty of work area.

Shoot...Maybe this is better, because it gets rid of corner waste of space, opens the kitchen without a tall element on the family room side of the stove, but separates the potential baking area from the ovens:

Looking at this, though, I don't like the view from the family room as well (the corner stove can be attractive) and I'm not sure it's important to do away with the tall element to the side of the stove, because of the dinette wall sitting forward. Hope that makes sense.

That's interesting and would certainly be easy work to set and clear the table, load the DW and put dishes away. I think it would work for a family that is good about cleaning as they go, but not so good for one that tends to stack dishes. That would be a bit too close to the table for me.

The fridge at the doorway to the DR is not a deal killer. The fridge door is open for short times, and you already have a SXS so that the open door would not go as deep into the aisle. You might prefer something different if you use your DR a lot, but for most folks, that would not be a big trade off. You could swap the fridge and ovens but that creates a less usable corner.

Of the two, I like the one with the corner cooktop best.

I agree with Lascatx's point, but I just had to play at a new idea, since others weren't hitting the mark. ...If it's considered a kitchen/breakfast table, maybe it's not so bad? At least you can't see stacked dishes as well from the family room, but it could make the table a less attractive place to hang out.

That's pretty good. And I also like the angled cooktop version.

To the op, I have just one word ... and it is "pantry". Can you live without one in the kitchen? Or can we steal some coat closet?

looking back at your diagrams...it might work better to start the wall by LR with counter, fridge, turning corner with shallow cabs all along back wall (less confining - easy access) turning the other corner and going into the peninsula w/ the cook top on it. gives counter space on both side of cook top, area to land stuff going in / out of fridge on the shallow wall counter top and storabe above and below it.

when you're cooking you can see and talk to anyone sitting at the table having their coffee or whatever.

use laundry area space for additional storage of supplies, less used small appliances, serving pieces etc

Hey, I'd rather sit near the sink than run track while preparing everything. I think it's always good to play with unusual ideas and try to think outside of the box. Even ideas that don't work can lead to ones that do.

There are a couple of places you could put in some narrow pullouts or shallow storage -- or go back to that walk in pantry idea and create a hybrid of these ideas.

Thanks everyone! I only have 32" next to the DR wall for a 30" one door refrig unless I move the DW to the left of the sink.
Rhome, The sink and DW in that pantry area is very creative and a good use of space but I live in a trad colonial in CT with a wooden backyard and I'd probably prefer an exterior view when I'm doing the dishes although it would be a great food prep space. With that corner cooktop area did you have the ovens on the wall by the hallway?

desertsteph, I'm not sure that there would be enough space for a counter, refrig 32-38" and corner cab 36" on that LR wall. Or were you thinking about a blind cabinet? The wall is only 73". The shallow cabinets would be OK if there is enough space to open the refrig door or doors if a person is standing at that work counter or cooktop on the peninsula. There would only be 5' of space between refrig and peninsula.

I'm not sure whether this makes sense but in a galley style like the design #3 layout is there any way of building the wall on some sort of slight curved angle for the refrigerator and cooktop? Not placing either on an exact diagonal but just enough so the refrigerator door next to the LR wall could be opened. I'm guessing it would probably cause a lot of wasted space.

Yes, oven is next to hallway in the corner cooktop plan. Most people find that they spend more time at prep than at clean up (especially during daylight hours, I'd think), so prep is where people want their view...It has led to many plans with cleanup sinks in other locations to open up new and better layout possibilities. But you are the certainly the final word for your kitchen. I would just encourage you to try to envision it and 'try it on' before letting the sink at the window position dictate the whole layout.

And I would rather switch the DW to the other side than be limited to a smaller-than-needed (and maybe hard to replace) fridge.

Rhome, I'm definitely going to think about that cleanup center. It's totally different, and the food prep area with a prep sink by the window would be nice. I might be able to squeeze a little bit of space out of the coat closet for a pantry. I really do appreciate all your help!

Thanks everyone for your help! It seems that location of the refrigerator is my biggest challenge. In this latest design #6 (galley layout) I've placed it on the wall next to the LR. I thought perhaps a narrow pull out pantry might solve the problem of the handle hitting the wall. However, it only leaves 16" on either side of the cooktop. Also I've pulled the cooktop/refrig wall out 15" to be even with the pantry wall. To make use of that dead space, I might be able to put a pull out broom cabinet accessed through the hallway, deeper cabinets, or the backsplash storage that was suggested. I thought of also getting a refrigerator regular 30" deep and still have it look built in, even with the cabinets. All of the appliances are within the working area of the kitchen. The other decision is Rhome410's suggestion of putting the sink and dishwasher on the pantry wall across from the table for a cleanup area and just a prep sink near the window. What do you think?

I could deal with 16" on one side of the stove, but not both. Way too small for prepping, plus room to set ingredients, oils, sauces, spices, etc....Wouldn't work for me, anyway.

Well, I'm going to make a decision in the next week or so. In order to keep all of the apppliances in one area which seems to be the consensus of people on this board as well as KD's with whom I've consulted. I'm thinking of going with the galley style layout. (Design 6) I would put the refrigerator next to the LR wall with a very narrow pantry (9" maybe smaller if I can get one). If I get a smaller refrigerator 30" or 33" I could probably have 18" between refrigerator and cooktop and maybe 19" on the hallway side. I might look at a cabinet with a shelf in the top drawer for extra work area, on the right, next to the cooktop. Even thought I like the looks of the corner cooktop, (design 1) which I thought about doing for quite some time, I'm really not happy with the refrigerator next to the hallway. It's where I have it now, and I feel claustrophic when I'm working there at the stove. By putting the refrig against the wall I think it might be a more open feeling on either side of the hallway. I would pull the cooktop wall out 14" to line up with the base cabinets in the pantry area. The ovens would go next to the DR wall. I just have to figure out what to do with the 14 " of dead space behind the cooktop. Any thoughts?

You can start with a niche to to hold useful items. There are dozens on the Finished Kitchen Blog. They are beautiful when tiled.

Also, sometime back there was kitchen with a little door to the side of their cooktop to use the space, maybe someone remembers that one. You could try putting narrow pantry type doors on the wall for spices, etc. on each side, like a built in medicine cabinet. 14" is too much to lose.

Maybe I should just pull it about 6" enough for a regular depth refrigerator and make the end cabinet on the other side of the hallway, 18" deep.