Couple of questions.

Where do those doorways go? The layout gurus will need to know traffic patterns.

How many cooks in the family? How many kids? ages?

Do you bake often? Do you need space for rolling things out?

Are you married to the idea of a raised eating bar? I see that island as ideal space for rolling out dough or kids to spread out their projects if it's all one height.

What supermom said plus... where is the main eating area, where do you plan dish storage, is the pantry at the upper end of the kitchen? Looks like a grand space!

Thanks so much for the responses!

The doorways are at the front between the peninsula and the left counter run next to the range. The front doorway is open into the FDR. However, I would like the Fridge to move down to where that left counter run currently is. The second doorway is at the back left of the kitchen right after the fridge, it is currently a very 'soft' doorway, with no real doorframe and just open to the hallway. This doorway is open to the hallway that runs behind and along side the left wall of the kitchen. We do not need to use the kitchen as a hallway to get to other parts of the house.

One cook, me, and DH who likes to sit and offer advice. I put seating in the island so he could sit and chat while I cooked. There is also going to be a flat screen mounted directly behind the island on that bare wall, so I can watch TV while I cook.

I am not a big baker, and have no need for a large surface to roll dough on. We also have no kids, and we will never have kids above the age of 2 or 3 while we live in this house. Im not married to the idea of a raised bar, but since the bar is directly behin my main sink, I would like to hide any potential messes from people in the FDR

Main eating area for US would be the island. The main eating area when is more than us would be the FDR. We like to entertain and like the idea of people being able to stand at the peninsula, sit at the island, sit in the FDR, and all be able to chat while cooking!

Dish storage will be in the back run of cabinets and the pantry will either be on that wall as well or on the main wall with the Fridge and Range.

We are very lucky to have this amount of kitchen space in San Francisco. The open-ness is VERY important to us. The FDR is open to the LVR which has great views and light, which we are hoping carry to the kitchen. We are also centering a functioning sky-light over the island.

I can wait to hear everyone's thoughts!!

I'm confused. Is the raised seating bar planned for behind the sink in the island or behind the main clean-up sink?

It seems like your dish storage is a long way from both your dining room and clean-up zone.

It looks like a wonderful space to work with, though.

Holligator- Raised bar seating is planned for behind the sink in the pennisula, which is the main clean up sink. There is also seating behind the prep sink in the island.

I agree the dish storage is further then I would like, but the other option is in the uppers that flank the range, which I'm not sold on.

Have you considered putting the frig on the back wall with the pantry? That puts all your food stores in the same area making putting groceries away easy. It also creates a snack zone that keeps DH out of your way when you're meal planning. You could then slide the range over more centered on the island and place dish storage on the far left of that left hand range wall maybe in a hutch like cabinet. Dish storage would then be close to the DW. It puts the frig pretty far away from the DR, but you plan to do most of your eating at the island anyway.

Hey LaxSupermom.

Yes, I have considered moving the fridge to the back wall. I'm not sure about moving the fridge and pantry, bc I'm afraid of making the back wall to heavy looking. I guess I could put glass fronts in the pantry. I do like the idea of not having anyone bother me to get in the fridge while I'm cooking!

I have attached a new layout that has the pantry and fridge flanking the stovetop on the side wall, and also gives a better idea of where the seating will be.

{{gwi:1796078}}

laxsupermom just said everything I was going to say (how does she keep doing that?!)! I agree that moving the fridge gives you a lot more functionality and convenience. With the prep sink in the island, you don't have to worry about the distance between your fridge and sink.

I'm glad to hear that the island will be one level. The raised bar on the clean-up sink run makes perfect sense.

Here is a 3D version with the Fridge and Pantry on the main wall. The micro and warming draw are not visible from this angle but are in one of the bottom cabs on the back wall. I'm still considering the idea of putting the Fridge on the back wall, but I am concerned that it will make the room look less open, and you will walk right into it when you enter from the back hallway.

Thoughts?

{{gwi:1796080}}

I'm confused...If DH sits at the bar, how is having a snack zone at the back keep him out of the way? Oh, wait...He's at the island...So will he be happy with his back to the TV?

With the fridge where you now have it, is it more accessible to DH and guests (when there are some) if they're hanging out in the family room? It's also still accessible to DH without him traipsing through your cooking area, as well as being closer to the dining room, so I think it's OK.

One thing is that I like to go from fridge to prep sink to prep counter to stove...So I'd want the prep sink closer to the fridge. The way it is, you carry things past the stove and prep area to the sink, then come back with them. The prep sink is in the perfect location if the fridge was on the back wall.

Rhome- The TV is for me not DH! HAHAHA. I'm sure he would disagree. We are thinking about putting windows where the TV is currently and moving the TV to be on the pennisula wall.

I see your point with regards to the prep sink. Do you think it would be too close to the other sink if I moved it closer to the fridge? We are trying to avoid the fridge on the back wall, bc we don't want the first thing you see when you enter from the back hallway to be the fridge. I think I may do a corner hutch instead of the open shelving.

I have some new things to add to the original plan.

We have now decided to go with an all fridge unit on the left side of the cooktop and an all freezer unit on the right side of the cooktop. This makes the cooktop centered to the island. We also decided to not put upper cabinets flanking the cooktop.

The pantry would be moved to the back wall and the open shelving unit would no longer be there and in its place would be about a 2.5 ft pantry.

I'm also reconsidering how far dish storage is. My thought is since I have this giant island I could put dishes out in preparation for serving and use the island as a midway point between DW and storage.

I'm still having issues placing my micro and warming drawer. The DH is not thrilled at it being below counter height.

Thought?? Please HELP!!

Is the MW a standard MW or MW drawer? If a standard, I agree w/your DH...although many here will disagree. We have a tall family and there is no way we could comfortably use a regular/standard MW under the counter. Instead, we have a MW drawer that has controls angled up slightly for ease of use. The MW drawer is in the top drawer positition so it's easy to add/remove/check items in the drawer since you just reach down, not lean over and then reach down & in...I hope that makes sense.

Our WD is also under the counter but it's in the 2nd drawer position so it's not that low and is also relatively easy to use.

BTW...do not put the MW & WD in the same cabinet. Putting them in the same cabinet will definitely make one of them too low! I also suspect it would violate the installation instructions for both!

Do your fridge and freezer have handles that can go on either side? (A lot of sets have the fridge on the right, so I wanted to be sure) It's handiest to have the microwave close to the fridge, but I agree with Buehl, and since Hubby also has a concern, can you incorporate it into the pantry cabinetry, maybe making something wider that can house the microwave on the back wall?

I'm still confused about dish storage and what you're saying about it. (I suppose I could find it if I read through all the older posts) Is it on the back wall? If so, it'd irritate me to have to move it all to the island, then to its home on the back wall. Other people keep theirs near their table rather than near the dishwasher, although I think they're in the minority, so I guess it's all in what you prefer and are used to.

Buehl-
I'm totally on board with a microwave drawer, but the DH is still skeptical. The one I was looking at(Wolf 30'microwave drawer) was 1 cubic foot, is that really big enough? Granted we do not microwave much, we don't make meals in it and it is mainly used for snacks.

Thanks for the advice not to put the two units together!

rhome410-
The dish storage is currently planned for the upper cabinets on the back wall. Those will be the only uppers in the kitchen, bc we have limited wall space that is not covered with windows. The island will be our main eating area, so I guess dish storage is close to where most of our meals would be consumed! I'm not sure about the fridge, we are looking at the Sub Zero BI 36F, from the photos it looks like it is on the left.

If someone thinks of a better dish storage spot, please let me know! I am all ears! Also, If anyone thinks we should trash this layout and drastically move things around, I would love to know why and what you would do?!

The new Sharp (and probably Dacor since it's a re-badged Sharp) is 1.2 cu ft. It's a couple of inches taller than the older models and is made as either a 24" or 30" appliance. Note the interior space of both are identical; the 30" has more "trim" to make it 30" wide.

OK...now for an alternate layout:

MW. The MW drawer is in the peninsula. This location is (1) near the refrigerator, (2) near a water source, and (3) on the periphery of the kitchen so it's easily accessible to both kitchen workers as well as snackers. The MW is generally placed near the refrigerator as much of what you cook in it comes from the refrigerator or freezer.

Snack Zone/Beverage Center. You could even make the peninsula a "snack zone"...store snacks in the drawers next to the MW. If it's in the budget, you might consider a refrigerator drawer for snacks. Again, if it's in the budget, you might put in a built-in coffee maker or put in a small bar sink in the peninsula on the end by the wall and make it a coffee center. (The small bar sink, as opposed to a bigger prep sink, would be used to fill the coffee maker.)

Warming Drawer (WD). The WD is located next to the range. When folks on the Forum are asked if they like/use their WD, those that like them have usually placed the WD very close to the range or cooktop. Those that put their WD farther away generally did not use it much. You want it close by so you take something off the range and put it right in the WD...if you have to walk across the kitchen to get to the WD, you're less likely to use it. [Note to others: If you have a double oven stack, don't put the WD beneath the ovens, it's too low for most people & is usually too far away from the range/cooktop.] And don't forget to turn the WD on when you start cooking; you want it already warmed up when you put something in it.

Sink. Notice that I moved the sink off the peninsula. Sinks, like cooktops/ranges, usually work better if they're not in an island or peninsula. If you have seating, people get splashed. It also usually makes the dirty dishes more visible to areas outside the kitchen. If you're concerned about "visiting" while doing dishes, consider this:
70% of your time is spent prepping
20% is spent cleaning up
10% is spent cooking

If you're interested in "visiting" while doing something, then prepping makes the most sense since that's what you spend the majority of your time doing.

Also, do you really want those hanging out at the peninsula to be staring at a counter or sink full of dirty dishes??? Those dirty dishes would be "in their face".

BTW...a raised bar only hides dirty dishes from someone sitting down in the other room...if anyone is standing in the other room or sitting at the bar they will still see those dirty dishes...the only real way to hide dirty dishes is to get a deep sink (or put them in the DW)!

This location for the sink also puts it right where the dish storage is...trust me, you'll be very happy that you have your dish storage near the DW!

Island. To give you more storage space, I made your island wide enough to hold 24" cabinets back-to-back. Not only do you have more storage, but you also have bigger expanse of area to work. I also eliminated all but one seat and put the one seat on an end. When DH is sitting at this seat giving you "advice", he can now see the TV!

Trash Pullouts. I put in two 12" trash pullouts, one on each side of the island. The "top" one would be for cleanup and the "bottom" one for prep & cooking. One of the biggest regrets I have in my new kitchen is that I didn't either put in a second trash pullout near the prep & cooking zones or locate the one we do have in the prep zone rather than the clean up zone. Yes, it's used for cleaning up, but it's used much more during prep & cooking than it is during cleanup...especially now that we have a GD.

Prep Sink. The Prep Sink is moved to the end so it's more accessible for the MW, outsiders washing their hands or getting a drink of water, etc. It's also very close to the range for filling/dumping pots.

Corner Super Susan. I put in a 36" corner super susan (a lazy susan w/o the center pole). A super susan hold a lot! [In our old kitchen all our pots & pans, colanders, and misc other items all fit in our 36" lazy susan...pole & all! (I hold the same things in 3 different drawers in our new kitchen...two 36" drawers & a 30" drawer plus the pizza pans, etc are now above the ovens.)] Some people use it to hold their small appliances. Lazy/Super susans can be very useful.

Range Hood. I forgot to add the range hood. I recommend a 54" range hood (6" wider than the 48" range). You get better capture of odors, grease, steam, fumes, etc. if the hood extends 3" past each side of the range. Be sure to vent it outside!

Peninsula. Note that it's all one level now. This will give you a much better work area...for setting out dishes for appetizers, a buffet, or staging them for the FDR. It will make hanging out at the peninsula more welcoming as well. It will also be a great spot for craft projects w/the little ones...and the lower seating (counter- instead of bar-height) will be safer for them. Note that counter-height seating is more comfortable for the majority of adults as well.

I did want to mention that when planning for seating whether at a table or island/peninsula, you should have 24" of space per person. So, an 8' peninsula would only be able to seat 4, not 5. You might be able to squeeze another seat in, but it won't be comfortable.

Minimum recommended overhangs are also 18" for table-height (30") seating, 15" for counter-height (36") seating, and 12" for bar-height (42") seating.

Regarding the MW...my DH is 6'5", DS is 6'3", DD is 5'11", & I'm 5'10" and the MW drawer & undercounter WD work fine for us.

This is a lousy pic, but the WD is to the left of the cooktop, MW to the right.

Closeup of each:

Buehl-

WOW! Thanks!!

We just spent a marvelous day looking at micro drawers. I wish I would have checked Garden Web before we left! HA. I am definitely going to check out the sharp

I had not thought of putting the sink on the back wall! That is a great idea. The dish storage issue would be completely solved! Brilliant. I am worried that I would lose my pantry. My biggest complaint in my current kitchen is we have very little space for food storage, so a pantry is must for us. I could probably have the cabs under the peninsula be my food storage area. Would that be weird to not have a pantry and have the food stored in cabinets? Also, I'm concerned about the desk/recipe area, would it be too close to the sink if the sink was on the back wall? We are for sure getting a 'Magic Corner' which I think is the same thing as a super Susan. They are so cool!!

The peninsula being a snack zone is a great idea. Despite popular GW opinion I think we are going to do the raised bar on the peninsula. It is just what we like! We are not doing a built in coffee maker, and I don't think we have a huge need for a refrig drawer, it is just me and the DH.

I never even considered not having seating at the island. Look at all the extra storage space!! I forgot to mention in my past post, we just found out the wall labeled 80' (btw the measurements are all in centimeters, bc they design came from a European cab-maker) has to be 5ft 2in so I think my island may have to be shorter. I really love the idea of extra storage, but I also would like to use the island as our main eating area. I will have to contemplate the pros and cons of each idea.

Thanks again for ALL the GREAT ideas!!

Hi All!

I just wanted to share some updates to the layout!
This is a first drawing from our Architects, so forgive the roughness! I'm going to give a brief description bc there is a lot going on!!

Let's start with the "left' wall, with the range. The freezer is going to be at the end across from the pennisula, not where it is in the drawing. We are going with 27' all fridge and 27' all freezer. This gives about 30' of counter space on either side of the cooktop. We are going to have upper cabinets on this wall for dish and glass storage. Thanks everyone for helping me realize I needed it closer!

The back wall is going to have a furniture looking hutch about 4'wide. The curved wall is actually going to be a opening to the back hall. The previous desk/recipe area is going to become a pantry. We are going to see if it is possible to bump that wall out to become even with the outside staircase, so we could have a step in pantry. If we can't, it will still be a pantry but the specifics are yet to be determined!

The right wall now has the sink, dw, and trash pullouts! The Architect moved the doorway down so that the above items could be accommodated. There will be a large window or windows about this area.

The bottom 'wall' aka peninsula will now only have storage and the dinning room side will be raised to bar height. I'm also considering putting a beverage fridge in this area, to keep people away from me while I'm cooking.

The island will no longer have seating. Disregard the curved end, that part was the Architects doing, and I was not a fan. I was really looking forward to having seating at the island, but we can no longer have seating on the right side of the island, bc of the new sink area. I think the WD and MW will be in the island too.

Now that the sink area has been moved to the right wall, I'm wondering if dish storage on the back wall is possible.

Thoughts??? I know there's some detail I'm missing!!

{{gwi:1796086}}

Dish storage is one issue (could be in drawers at the peninsula or island if not in spots blocked by the open DW (possibly needing to flip the DW and sink which would also give you counters on both sides of the sink -- very important)

Another possible problem is that you don't' have a prep sink drawn in the island. If you have one, this creates working zones, but without it, you have a great barrier island and a major pain for working around.

Why is the wall curved at the rear left? If it is just for interest, I think it closes up the space and looks more awkward than interesting.

I am not the biggest fan of corner pantries -- you lose the floor space and the space above the door and I think you can get more storage and more floor space with cabinets -- but a drywall pantry is less expensive. That's just my preference and comes from a kitchen that needed better use of limited space but 10 foot ceilings.

I'm no expert -- just in the early planning stages of my own kitchen reno and learning a TON from this thread. Thank you all!

SFcitydweller, I'm curious how much that doorway to the outside will get used and where most of the traffic will be coming from -- that arched doorway top left or via the dining room? If a lot will be coming from the latter, it might make that sink placement a bit awkward.

I think the wide hutch on the back (top) wall is a great idea because it is the most visually featured part of your kitchen (the reason you didn't want to put a fridge there, right?). I am a big fan of storing dishes on open shelves -- convenient AND cool-looking -- but would it then make sense to switch your DW with your sink as lascatx has suggested?

Also, I am with you on the bar height counter between DR and kitchen. A lot of my friends have this, and I find it blocks out just enough meal-preparation-detritus to make eating more relaxing and enjoyable. Of course this is only true if/when you are sitting down in the DR, but for me this is the moment when it matters. As for very little kids (no older than two you said), I don't think the height/depth of that counter will make much difference as they will be in high chairs or those cool clip-onto the counter/table thingies.

Now that you have given up on eating at the island, is there a way you could reintroduce Buehl's idea of a single seat at the island? A perch from which DH can give you advice while you're cooking? (this cracks me up).

Speaking of, Buehl made SEVERAL really great points that were definitely new to me, and I will definitely use. One was trash pull-out near prep being just as important, if not more so, than trash pull-out by clean-up sink. Is it something that might be relevant to you, too?

Oh, and I think Buehl's famous super susan idea (I am definitely stealing this one) requires 12" or so on either side of the exact corner to work. Maybe she can confirm this.

Hey guys.

lascatz-

I am 100% for sure having a prep sink. I didn't even notice that it wasn't on this drawing. I also would prefer the DW to the left of the sink so there is counter space on either side. This was from our Architect and super rough!! The Architect did the curved wall as an *option* with a corner pocket door, we weren't fans. There is a a regular square hallway wall drawn in over the curved door, it is a more faint marking. I'm not thrilled with the corner pantry either, but I'm at a loss of where to put the pantry if not in that area.

Viva99-
The back doorway leading to the stairs will get no traffic other then me or cleaning people using it to take trash out. The Trash bins are at the bottom of the stairs.

I think the top left entry and the dinning room entry will get equal amount of use. The top left won't be curved, it will be a normal looking doorway with molding.

I would prefer the dishes to be stored in the hutch on the back wall. I'm begging to think with the new DW and Sink placement I may be able to do that, and not have upper cabinets on the cook top wall. I would love thoughts for or against that idea?!

Yes not kids over 2 maybe 3, but who knows!

I was thinking of having a single bar stool at the end of the island towards the back wall for DH's advice area.

I love the idea of trash under the prep sink. I don't think I will do a full pull out, but I will put a trash can under there.

I am also on board with the super susan idea! Our cabinet guy has a play on it which will make the corner usable!