Do you have a floorplan for the new layout? It's easier to see possibilities, spacial relationships, and problems from that type of view than from separate wall elevations.

Sorry, that was the one image I could not get to upload last night. Here it is:

{{gwi:2107666}}

{{gwi:2107667}}

Thanks for the try!

I can't really change the outlay of the current kitchen as far as plumbing and electrical; it would increase the expense so much we wouldn't be able to afford it. Plus, one of my top priorities is to retain the tilework above my current cooktop that my FIL had installed for us. I think I'm probably just stuck with my current layout including how I have my butcher block and just adding new cabinets.

Thanks anyways! Any other tries?

The most meaningful layout change you can make is to improve access to sink from cooktop. That pretty much requires either moving the sink to the peninsula or move the ref to the space between the window and door ob the existing sink wall and adding a prep sink where the ref used to be.

Its worth getting estimates for the plumbing job.

I'll be the first to warn you that the tiles might not survive removal of your existing cabinets and countertop. This is not a comment on how it's constructed, more on the nature of the demolition universe - if you like it, it falls apart by itself when it sees the screw driver. If you hate it, it needs a sledge hammer.

Not trying to argue here because I do appreciate any ideas to throw around. However, I don't see where moving the sink to the peninsula helps things.

Currently I use the peninsula to sit 2 of my 3 kids. When we have company, we use it as part #2 of our buffet set up. When there are multiple people in the kitchen helping, one can be cooking, one can be cleaning, one can be prepping and no one falls over anyone. For everyday cooking, I wash, move to the peninsula or butcher block for prep and then to the cooktop to cook. I wanted to add to my available counter space on the peninsula by relocating my counter top microwave somewhere else - and we barely use the thing - so that all 3 kids could sit there.

Moving the sink to the peninsula would break up my flow of open countertop, take away from where my kids could sit at the peninsula, make the sink the main focal point that you'd see from the family room instead of a nice expanse of clean, clutter free counter. I am short on storage now so to take away a section of overhead cabinets to place the butcher block over by the back door doesn't make sense to me unless I am not seeing things. My kitchen, at 12'6" wide x 20'4" long including the eat in area, isn't really big enough to take away storage space to put in a prep sink either.

While I appreciate the suggestion, I don't see where it would be an improvement over what is there. Any other ideas?

Oh, and we'd be doing demolitian ourselves, so we can take our time to preserve the tilework. When it was installed, I planned very carefully for an eventual demolitian of surrounding cabinetry so I can not only take the time to work around it, but I can also replace anything that needs it once we start this project.

Anyone else have any suggestions? I know I may be seen as asking for help but then arguing with what was provided, but I was pretty clear in my initial post that I wanted to:

-retain tile behind cooktop.
-add to available space on my peninsula by taking off the micro to make room for kid #3 to sit there.
-not move appliances to save added expense of plumbing and electrical work.

What I had in mind, and why I posted wall views, was help with my butcher block and suggestions on the cabinets, etc. that were in the layout. If what is there is the best I can do, so be it.

Think it would be odd to do an island top with marble and the butcher block inset in there? It's a small island about 30 x 50 so it would be about half and half. My other option, is to keep my butcher block tucked in under the counter like it is now.

I do have feelings and have some ruffled feathers right now. Everyone who answers is trying to help and I took a while thinking about your kitchen and drawing something up that I thought would be helpful.

You took the time to point out every which way you thought it was wrong without making any effort to understand why I'd drawn what I'd drawn. That was interesting, to say the least. Perhaps I have too thin a skin.

When you look at your kitchen, you have worries about money, about saving the tile and about symetry and other concerns - all valid. When I look at your kitchen, I don't have "feelings" about it, I just look at function. I thought you were asking about your layout, not decorating or minor cabinet issues.

I value function over looks - or to put it another way, if it doesn't work well, I hate it no matter what it looks like. This is my bias when I look at a plan. This doesn't mean that people who value looks over function are wrong. Its an explanation of why I wouldn't understand them and they wouldn't understand me.

Even function of any given kitchen is not "absolute." It partly depends on you, how you cook and what arrangement you feel is organized. We don't know any of that looking at a floor plan.

Every design has trade offs. Every design may work better for some people than for others. You are accepting the limitations of your existing kitchen design and that's fine. You want to have restrictions about the tile and the bb island, which is also fine. You already decided not to move any appliances or utilities at all, also fine. None of those were clear to me from your initial post. My apologies on missing the tile concern in your original post - which you did state.

So, your kitchen and what I was thinking ... Your layout has some problems and some of them are fairly well know issues. That doesn't mean that they aren't fine if you like them that way.

• Main cooking in an aisle - dangerous and uncomfortable. If you turn around quickly with a hot pot or someone brushes by a pot handle and knocks the pot off... There's also the height of the hot oven doors when open

• The aisle behind the cooktop appears to be a major pathway through the house - there have been discussions of this over and over - its been referred to as "kitchen as pathway".

• Sink is across the room from the ref and the range - inefficent and somewhat dangerous carrying hot pots filled with boiling water across a main pathway.

• Island placed between ref and sink and is small - see the phrase "barrier island". People report these as junk collectors.

• Much lesser issue is the ref is kinda on the wrong side, the goal being to have easy access from table, dining room, prep sink and any outdoor cooking/dining area you might use

The new design drawn repeated all of these, but did remove your pantry, which I kind of wondered about but figured you were ok with.

So, if this were a kitchen FOR ME, I would kill the...

I guess we're hearing "How could this be better, but I don't want to change anything." Not sure how to help...So it seems like your choices are to keep it exactly as is, or do what your friend drew. Bmore is helpful to point out that if you're going to spend the amount of money to redo a kitchen that it's worth checking out prices to 'get it right' before assuming you can't afford it. It wouldn't be helpful if we DIDN'T point those things out. We don't want you to feel like "Why didn't someone tell me?" later... Regrets after the money is spent and there are no options left are no fun.

I'm not an expert on layout the way bmore and rhome are (and I really wish I'd found this site while I was still in the design phase). I had a layout something like yours with a peninsula, and after 15 years of walking all the way around it to get from the breakfast nook to the kitchen, I was only too happy to get rid of it for an island. Even though the aisles in mine are on the narrow side, I'm so far very happy with the better flow. You're fortunate enough to have space for both a peninsula and island, which tells me that if you get rid of the peninsula you can have a bigger island. Again, I defer to the pros on this site for specifics of placement of appliances -- I'm only commenting on my real life experience with the peninsula vs island.

When budget is a serious issue, choices are usually: 1. reface or paint cabs, make cosmetic changes, and live with the layout you have; 2. cabinets now/appliances later, or vice versa, making sure that whatever you buy later will fit with what you're buying now (the tricky part IMO).

The easiest way to lighten up a south facing exposure with a lot of trees? Trim the trees! Shorter valances might also bring in more light. HTH.

bmore, I like that story about bringing your cabinet home on the bus.I would've done that back in the day.Now i don't have to, but I still enjoy chainsawing my own trees when necessary. anyway,i hope to transfer my kitchen layout to some program so you can comment on mine-your analysis would be very helpful. sorry this might be off subject.

I'm sorry, I guess I shouldn't have posted on the forum. I've seen others ask for help with stipulations and thought it would be okay to do. I was very careful to outline what those stipulations where in my initial post. I am seen as arguing, but the suggestions made went against my post.

Yes, I am asking for some change without being willing to change. However, my FIL did the tiling for us and it can't be done again. If it doesn't stay as is, there is no way my husband will change anything at all. As I said, I've put my kitchen in the hands of 3 companies; no one else had issues with the stipulations. We have no family around, when we do have family it is many bodies and for lengthy periods of time. With my eat in kitchen area and dining room and peninsula, I have seating for almost all to have a sit down dinner, but am always short a place for myself; hence the desire to have one additional place setting at the peninsula if not two. I also have 3 children; 2 sit there, I'd like for all three to be able to sit up there to eat.

When I posted here, as I stated, I was looking for ideas on optimizing storage and incorporating the butcher block. The idea presented to me was to have it part of the peninsula which seems great on paper, but weird once you tape it out and realize you'll have this raised area smack dab in the middle of the peninsula. I've read posts here for the past 3 years and time and again I've seen people post suggestions - no put a lazy susan here, wait, the micro would work great here, drawers here would be great but cabinets here would be better - that type of stuff. I just thought someone might look and have some ideas on what was drawn out there.

Sorry to have ruffled feathers, but the ideas suggested just sort of ignored my entire post. You may not understand the reasonings behind, but I'm not changing the general outlay of the kitchen as far as appliance placements. #1) I can't afford the additional expense which I stated in my initial post, we may not be able to afford to do anything at all. #2) They may not be optimal, but they were here as is when FIL did my tile work behind my cooktop and while the next homeowner may rip stuff out and change it up, it's not going to happen under our ownership any time soon.

Sorry that you may not understand or agree. I didn't come to cause trouble, just thought I could get some help within my guidelines.

Thank you for the time you spent in typing and responding.

bmore... I can't get over the thoughtful intent with which you word and place your posts... truly generous.

sandra... I'm getting that you pretty much want to just change out your cabs and somehow incorporate your butcher block while maintaining your current flow for whatever your personal reasons are. rhome and bmore have forgotten more then I would ever pretend to know but I have one small thought. What if you were to create an island that was the same height as your butcher block so it could be unobtrusively built in anywhere you want. Then you could have marble to butcher block back to marble if you wanted it in the middle. The entire island would then be prep/baking center height. Would work if you're a shrimp like me. Don't be too quick to blow off this forum; the people are extraordinarily helpful and are happily willing to put a tremendous amount of personal time and effort into their suggestions. I, for one, am extremely grateful for the help I've gotten and as I near a REAL start will be posting frequently asking for fine tuning and suggestions. I hope I can be as helpful to anyone who asks as time goes on and I learn more.
Elyse

Hi Sandra,

Just a couple of thoughts - does the tile have to serve as a backsground for the cooktop? If you could relocate your cooktop to the island you could incorporate your butcherblock over on that wall and retain your FIL's tiling as a focal point for that side of the room.

Another idea - scrap the island and make a modified U - incorporate baking center and butcher block there instead. Doesn't look like you could take that too far out - not sure what's there besides the stairs to the basement. If you do this I'd play around with trash/cutlery placement so that you could use to blind base pullouts - not the best solution I know but...if you have stuff you don't use much that you can put there it's doable. Email me if you're interested - I drew your kitchen on my software just for fun so I have pictures.

Everyone here is great - don't despair! We don't all have to agree to get the best kitchen we can :)))

Tracy

Here are a few things I would change with your friend/KD's layout:

The most glaring thing for me is a 14" tray cabinet, when storage is limited. I hate my tray cab down at the beach and it's only 9". IMO, having verical dividers in the cab above the oven is the best way to store trays and pans. No bending and no step stool needed (needless to say I'm doing that in my remodel). I currently have 15" drawers on either side of my range and they hold all of my spices, cooking utensils, knives and first aid/medication type stuff in addtion to a bread drawer. Also, unless you're doing custom, there are no standard 14" base or wall cabs. If you have room to move the fridge down 2", you could get 15" base and wall cabs on either side of the cooktop.

I think a super susan next to the sink would be much more useful and hold a lot more than the proposed cabinets. I love mine. It currently holds all of my pots, pans and roasters.

I don't like the butcher block in the middle of the peninsula. I think it would look great in the island but I'm not sure how functional it would be there because it's so far from the cooktop. You're very used to working at the end of the peninsula so maybe it would be better to build it in at the end of it instead of in the middle.

The trash pullout is not ideal where the KD has it drawn because you can't open it much while standing at the sink. A 15" or 18" two bin waste cabinet would work very well at the end of the peninsula ,unless you decide to put the butcher block there. In that case put it in the peninsula next to the butcher block and it's easily accessible from both the sink and prep areas. You could also put a small bin under the sink for dinner plate scapings and other food waste.

I'm not sure about the pantry. While I agree that it would be nice to open up that space where you come in the back and it would provide a great place for a message center and to drop groceries etc. or a good place for the microwave can you afford to give up the storage? If you keep the pantry, you can put the microwave in there.

I'm not sure I'm making out the numbers correctly, but it looks like the wall cabinets on either side of the sink are 32", which are not standard sizes. Most semi-custom cabinets are made in 3" increments. Stock cabinets have even more size limitations.

Have you started looking at cabinets? Do you know whether you want framed or frameless? Frameless offers more storage space in a small kitchen especially if you do lots of drawers instead of base cabinets.

Keep us posted on your project. I'd love to see what you decide to do.

I certainly have no problem with limitations or stipulations, but many post here thinking it is too expensive or too much trouble to do this or that, only to find it isn't as bad as they'd feared. I would only want to warn of that, in case some of the limitations didn't end up to be what you'd thought. I understand about trying to keep the tile, which is a personal priority issue. We all have those.

I just find it easier to consider even cabinet configuration and usage when I can see the plan from the top and not be distracted by the elevations. That's when things like pantries vs open counter, and lazy susan vs other corner uses show up.

Now to move on to something I hope will be helpful: Someone may have already said some of this, but it's been a long day of baseball, and my brain is too sunburned to read and remember all that's been said here...I don't really like the butcherblock where your friend has it, thinking I'd prefer it where it is now, or I think I am intrigued by the half BB, half marble island idea. I also like that moving it will leave more uninterrupted work area on the peninsula.

Sandra, perhaps it was the post title that threw everyone off. When GWers see "help with layout" they start rubbing their hands together in anticipation of the fun of moving things around to make them more functional. Your needs weren't really for help on the layout but for maximizing the efficiency of your current layout, which is a fine request, as well. Don't be upset over confusions brought on my miscommunication--you can still get the help you need here!

Coincidentally, I just came across this pic of a butcher block incorporated into a marble island. This one is on casters, which I find a bit odd, but it does give an idea of what it might look like. I think your friend's idea was to incorporate just the top, which I think I would like better.

{{gwi:2107668}}

I second the recommendation to check out the cost of moving some things around. I had some fairly complex plumbing changes that were much less than I had imagined, so you may be pleasantly surprised. Cabinets were by far our biggest expense, so that's the one thing I would want to be sure to get right, and the layout matters a lot in getting it right.

You've been living with this layout and find it workable for you, so you see no compelling reason to change it. The folks here are used to seeing layouts that can be adjusted more significantly and look at yours as needing a lot of changes to maximize its functionality. If you're OK with the way it functions now, that's great, but please understand that everyone commenting is doing so in an effort to help you.

I suspect that Sandra has some issues that go beyond her mishmash of a kitchen.

But...I'd recommend yanking down the black curtains, cleaning off the frig, taking a wrecking bar to the soffits, install full shelves instead of 1/2 shelves in the cabinets, tossing the microwave and picking up a used OTR MW from a garage sale--but probably not even worth a $15 investment there since the MW is 'barely used', boarding up the backdoor (there are 2 back exits), moving the pantry to the where the backdoor was, installing 'creamy cabinet' in the pantry unit spot (sourced from garage sales & DIY painted), painting the walls semi-gloss white and saving up for new laminate countertops.

Oh--and spending $2-3 dollars for a bunch of bright, preferably red, silk flowers--tulips or geraniums for the island because the kitchen needs some color. Maybe even shiney new silvery knobs & pulls from a cheap on-line source.

And I would move the butcherblock out of the kitchen because it is not a wise investment in space. The BB doesn't do anything other than provide a surface and hog prime kitchen real estate (no storage above or below the cutting surface and it isn't even in one of those near useless kitchen corner spaces.) I would replace it with a butcherblock 'block' to use on the countertop--easily stowed, stored vertically, stood on edge on the countertop, left on the countertop... I got 12 x 24 x 2 inch Michigan Maple Block Co slab at a rummage sale for $2.

Note that the things I've suggested are geared towards an investment of sweat equity and extreme penny-pinching. No plbg req'd & only if the MW is relocated, a new electrical circuit may be req'd if there isn't a dedicated circuit there already. In fact, if the existing MW is not currently on a dedicated circuit, it is a code violation and a probable resale/ home inspection issue.

I will add that we just tore down walls & we'll be moving plumbing, gas line and installing additional electrical circuits and reconfiguring lighting & ventilation in our remodel--most of which, if not all, will be DIY. That & removing, moving & replacing windows...new subfloors & flooring.... As well as building our own cabinetry... IOW's, I don't understand "can't".

And, Bmorepanic--I have to say this. Even though Sandra doesn't appear to appreciate the considerable effort you invested in her kitchen, I do. You're A Most Valuable Resource in this community & I'm always learning great stuff from your posts. So, Thank You, Bmorepanic!

I have always made it a point to keep my opinions to myself when threads go bad on this forum but this is getting out of control. Sandra clearly didn't realize how hard it is to be tactful via email and bmore let her know that she felt offended and unappreciated, which is fine. I think holligator summed it up quite well and very diplomatically. But that last post was just plain mean spirited. Being anonymous on the web shouldn't give one a license to behave badly. Sandra made a mistake, she was told about it...let's move on.

First of all, thank you for the unbelievable welcome to this forum. In all my years reading this, I don't believe I've run across anything quite like this thread. I am sitting here crying over the unbelievable cruelty posted here. I am just amazed that an absolute stranger would be so hateful.

It's been posted that I have no tact, howeveer, did anyone stop to read my initial thread? I realize Bmore spent a lot of time in responding and I did thank her or him for the time involved. However, the post just ignored my request, went off on a whole different tangent from what I came here to ask. Okay, so the thread title was wrong, does that mean you ignore the written word within? I just don't get it.

So I questioned Bmore because while what he or she laid out was well thought out, it didn't answer the questions asked. So I am seen as some mean spirited person for questioning why what I asked for was ignored. Bmore even siad, he or she looked at the room with no feeling - it's in the post, but what is in my room is lots of feeling. There are memories and a chunk of life we are trying to preserve and I was quite open about the fact that some things would not change in my kitchen in my first post that appears to have been completely overlooked. I feel like time was spent on the picture, but not the person.

ci_lantro, your post was about the most mean spirited thing I have read here; be it directed at me or someone else. You were 100% completely out of line. I hope no one does to you or makes you feel how you have made me feel reading what you have written. Proud of yourself for being so nasty? At least you can be for doing such an incredible job at it.

And for your information, the soffits are being removed - it's in the drawings that no one seems to pay attention to. The valences are green, not black. I grow orchids in my kitchen and in other places in my home and wouldn't be caught dead with fake flowers. I wouldn't be caught dead with plain white walls. You don't like my fridge? Well, sorry, my kids love to stick things all over it and see their stuff and who really cares if you don't like it - they do. I never said I didn't appreciate the help given, I just questioned it because it wasn't an answer to what I had asked; but then, you'd have to have read that initial post as well to maybe realize it. And I'm the one whose said to have no tact! Amazing!!!

I never write anything intentionally mean spirited. If it was taken that way I am sorry. I still don't se why it was deemed so incredibly wrong to question what was suggested when, again it went against everything I took the time to sit and write out.

Thanks to any of you who were kind enough to make suggestions. Believe it or not, I did take some positive things out of this whole horrid experience. The rest of you sure know how to chew someone up and spit them out.

Sandra, see what I mean about email...I really didn't mean that you arent tactful, just that one has to be EXTRA careful in emails because it's so easy to be misunderstood when someone can't hear your tone. I should have followed my own advice and chosen my words more carefully but I was on my way out and posted without my usual editing. Sorry about that.

Things are pretty tame here in kitchens. You should try appliances or remodeling...WOW!

Sandra, I haven't participated in this particular thread, but I do want you to know that the vast majority of people here really do mean well. They see something that they want to help fix...sometimes unsolicited...but it's done because they do care and want to help.

I was a case in point...I insisted I had to have an island but folks here showed me that w/my kitchen there was really no way to have an island and also increase my cabinet & counter space plus have a good layout...also things I wanted! I ended up w/2 peninsulas--one that seats 2 and the other w/no seating (what I call my "mini peninsula").

People here showed me why it wasn't a good idea--which was probably the only way I was going to see it. Granted, in my case I didn't have the same constraints so once I "got over" wanting an island it was much easier to meet my other, more important, goals.

In your case you have an emotional attachment to your backsplash that I totally understand plus you have budget constraints--also totally understandable!

Sometimes we here on the Forum get caught up in the "heat of the moment" in "fixing" a kitchen that we forget constraints OR we want to point out some things that you may or may not have thought of OR we want to encourage you to verify what the actual effort/cost is involved to do certain things (costs vary widely by region of the USA or even the world...we're an international bunch!)

Please don't give up on us!

Sandra - please don't give up on the group, but also realize that sometimes people read the post and miss stuff or read it and then came back to it to answer and then forgot some info. This even more so when the post is long and I'm bad about making long posts myself with a lot of information. Some is always missed and I will at times feel frustrated about it, but learned after a while on message boards it is par for the course and not worse raising my bloodpressure over.

The best way in general is to just say thanks, but as I mentioned in my first post I can't do this or this and then just move on and ignore it. I'm a very direct person and I'm sure at times I may unintentionally hurt somebody's feelings when responding because I tend to be direct like you were. However in the written word it can come across as much harsher than the intention was so you have to be careful in how you word things when people can't hear your tone of voice or see your facial expressions etc. that is normally part of communicating.

Also I'm not sure how many threads you've read on here, but I'm guessing at least 50% if not a lot more of the threads have suggestions that were not part of the initial scope or even against some of the stated restrictions. You will also find some threads where the OP (original poster) change their mind about one of the restrictions after finding one of the unsolicited suggestions a good idea or learning they can do it without affecting something else. It is all part of opening it up to a wide variety of people to respond. You'll get some you agree with and others you don't.

I'm really sorry you and others in this thread got their feelings hurt. I hope you decide to just let this post drop off and start a new one so you don't have to see the hurtful comments again.

Yes, yes ... totally agree with lyfia's post above.

Please come back Sandra, and "just start a new post and let this one drop off".