I feel for you! You're right, you shouldn't have to argue with your contractors. Remember, just because your electrician knows his wires doesn't mean he's a lighting expert (any more than a fantastic painter is necessarily good at choosing colors). You shouldn't have to give in on anything!

Can you hold off on some of the light fixtures? Just put up $10 something for the time being, until you have time to get exactly what you want? I've installed dozens of new light fixtures - you don't need an electrician for that, once the wiring is in place.

ITA with annkh. Unless it's recessed, you can always get some $15 fixtures at HD.

Hang in there, listen to their input (they may be right at times) and hold your line. They won't have to live there. I don't recall your lighting plan, have you posted it? Six feet sounds too far, unless you have high lumen/wattage 6" fixtures and very tall ceilings.

The 5" radius sounds like the corner radius. (This can be both inner and outer) If so, that is a big round one. If you want sharp corners you must specify the minimum they recommend for the type of material you are using.

Where in VA? I can bring sustenance in liquid or solid form. Hold on!

Java (in SE VA)

Agree with the above. Listen to what they have to say about functionality, their experience (or code, of course). Then, process it with a bit more research. But don't let your contractors dictate or change what you want to do -- or do what they like! Wrong skill set, not your needs, not your aesthetic and often just what's easiest or more economical for them (anything that raises their wage). They are notorious for bad decisions, bad design and short cuts. Their job is to bam boom done, yours is to get it done right and the way you want it. Of course, they're going to want to do things as they always do. It sounds as if you know what you are doing and have thought things through well already.

If you've done your research, and it sounds like you have, stick to your plans. Since you're getting push back, be prepared to repeat what you want clearly and without fumbling around that might be interpreted as uncertainty.

I found it very helpful to put everything I could on the 3D renderings of my kitchen. I handed my GC a stack of papers that included all my appliance specs and a rendering from each angle showing where stuff went. I drew in and labeled switches, outlets, lights, which things were switched together in the same circuit, etc. I think I kind of surprised him a little, but he carried those around the whole time and had very few questions. At times he would ask me about something I indicated, if it turned out something couldn't be moved for some reason, or I was doing something most people avoid, we discussed it and found an answer together.

If you want a lot of light, and they don't, I'd just mark where you want everything, put the lumens/ft as a note so they know you are aware of what you are asking for, and have them both initial it as the plan to use. You might consider adding dimmers, as you may find them helpful and they should convince the electrician you can't hold him responsible for too much light since you can just dim them down "when you realize he is right".

I totally feel for you. I am knee deep in lists, notes, etc. It's really a draining process. I never knew truly how draining until I started.

I say, stick to your guns and get what you want. I have no help to offer on the lighting, but I'm sure there are great people here that can.

Definitely be there for the templating, if possible.

Good luck!

Great idea on the dimmers, williamsem!

If you are feeling doubtful about your lighting plan, could you take your drawings to a good lighting store and have them take a look? I know, one more thing to do, but might be worth it if nothing more than to confirm what you already have planned.

I let an electrician talk me into two recessed lights in the LR and the location of a switch I didn't think we would ever use...and I was right....I hate the location of the 2 lights he installed (out of 4) and unscrewed the bulb on one..it was right over the chair I like to sit in and I felt like I was a spy being interrogated by a foreign government like in old movies. And we've never used that switch to turn the lights on or off. Listening to my gut would have saved a substantial amount, but I went along with the "expert."

You are paying them to do it the way you want it

Build, you just stick to your guns and you will be fine. The analogy that AnnKH made about a painter not necessarily being a color expert was dead on. The time spent on this forum has made you an expert on the planning process.

My KD told me there was no such thing as a Kohler Apron front sink with a side drain. I had to convince him to do the research on the Whitehaven. I have made a believer out of him. He said not only is the Whitehaven less expensive it is also much easier to install, and is the one they will now be using. I am a novice, he is a professional and he learned from me.

I have found that there is no need at all to argue and make points (I know you aren't doing that), you just state over and over what you expect to be done until they can echo back to you how you want it done.

You also need to know when to listen to a professional but there is never a time that you should not do what you know is right for you and your family because of a so called professional opinion. You know how important lighting is in a kitchen. Now that all my lighting is installed, if I had every light on in the kitchen it is a lot of light. I don't need all lights on at all times but I am sure glad that I have them all because I can fine tune the lighting to my desire. To me more lighting is better lighting.

I am in constant awe of the knowledge that is to be found on this forum! I thank each and every one of you!

I can honestly say there was only one case where I deferred to my KD and he turned out to be right. Every other time (and thank goodness there were not many times) I deferred to him, I was right and he was wrong. He's a good designer, but stuck in his way of doing things. He usually gave up trying to convince me after one try, though. I don't envy you having an electrician who wants to "win" the discussion. As others have said, hang in there, and remember who will be living there long after the guys with the wrenches and drills go home.

Have you had "the talk" with your KD and GC? I had to when I was doing my kitchen.

They both, initially, had the attitude that they "knew best" b/c they had been in the business so long. It quickly became apparent (especially with the GC) that I was going to have nip that attitude in the bud! I had a vision for my kitchen and I was tired of hearing "it can't be done" or "in my 25 years of...this is how we've always done it" or similar! So, "the talk" was necessary.

I took them aside (separately) and was very firm with them as I explained... "This is MY kitchen, not yours. I will have to live with what is done here every day, you will not. You will finish up and never see this kitchen again...but I will have to live and work in it every day for many years! I am paying you to build my kitchen to the design we agreed to and signed off on. Know that I designed every detail of the kitchen with a purpose...nothing was haphazard. I expect you to build to the agreed on design. I also expect to be consulted every time there is a problem. Together we will come up with possible solutions, but I will make the final decision as to which solution we will go with. I welcome all input and, of course, need to know the cost for each solution, but in the end I will decide on the final solution based on what is needed, how it will function, how it will look, how it impacts the schedule, and how much it will cost."

I only had to do this once with my KD...and, to be honest, I didn't have to be as emphatic with her, she got the message very quickly! In fact, it became a truly collaborative effort after that - which I was very pleased to see! (No, not everything was "perfect" and we did have a few stumbles, but most things worked out in the end.)

My GC, however, was another story. I do not know if it was a case of me being a woman and him a man and the attitude many GCs have, but my DH and I both made it very clear (over and over!) that I was the one who had to be pleased and who would have the major say in most decisions...and that they should call ME with questions, etc., not my DH!

[My DH and I would discuss the issue overnight, but he usually left the final decision with me b/c he knew how much the kitchen meant to me and he usually didn't care - especially if he didn't have to be the one "confronting" the GC. (I'm better at this type of thing.)]

Note: Do not do this in front of anyone else, including/especially their workers. This is something best done with just you and the supervisor or owner. You do not want them to "lose face" in front of their employees or subs.

Hang in there! Other have already provided some great input and advice.

Re lighting--stick to your guns about the amount you want (there is great advice on the lighting forum about distance, lumens, etc. for recessed lights). Put everything on a dimmer (lutron makes a nice decor plate with a very small slider to the right of the switch). We are in the midst of renovating a home and finished with the dimmers today.

Re the radius for your countertop. Our remodel is a mid-century modern home. The island is the only countertop to navigate around and I did a simple eased edge and corners. DH initially wanted it to be curved but I vetoed it. Very happy I did. I kind of worried about running into a corner, but no one has so far! I think if you are looking for a more contemporary style, that's the way to go!

Ditto the dimmers. I thought my previous kitchen was well lit, but still added two more 6 inch cans (EcoSmart LEDs) and the first time I turned on all the lights I was dazzled. Now, I appreciate all the extra light but use my dimmer frequently. I picked the Lutron Maestro compatible with the LEDs and am still tickled every time my lights slowly fade on or off.

I ended up as GC on my project so dealing with the subs was interesting sometimes. Many times they had never seen or heard of what I wanted, but I was nicely, but firmly insistent. As a professional, I tried to treat everyone that I worked with also as a professional. My DH, who works with contractors frequently, informed me that as a group many are shall we just say less than professional and I needed to be meaner!

One quick comment - regarding the granite edge:
If you are unable to physically go see what they want you to agree to, then ask that they send you a picture or drawing of what they are referring to.

You can then "sign off" if you agree.

At the same time, take a look through your inspiration pictures and find some counters that reflect what you want and then use that to communicate precisely what you want. They can then sign that document (if needed).

I feel your pain. There are so many decisions to make, and so many little details to keep track of. Every time I think I've made every possible decision on the project, the contractor wants me to decide on something else! I thought I'd finished with that months ago and could just sit back and watch them finish the house, but no.

It sounds like you're having more trouble with the electrician than the GC. One thing that might work is to let the GC deal with him. The electrician is working for the GC, after all, not directly for you. Sure, listen to his advice, but then make your own decision and let him and the GC know what the decision is. You're paying the GC to make it all come out right, and it's his responsibility to get his subs to do their job correctly.

I haven't had any problems with my contractor's electrician, but his tile guy is a bit of a flake. In cases where I disagree with him, I tell him and the GC what I want and then let the GC deal with making things right. But I do stay friendly and go over there a lot to see what is happening and to answer any questions the tile guy has. He keeps forgetting what tiles go where, even though we keep writing it down. But he does amazing work once he figues things out, so I can't complain too much.

On the slab thing: I've never heard of a fabricator who didn't want the client present when laying out the templates on the slabs. That is just bizarre.

Laura

What do they mean, your lighting plan will make your home "look like Ferguson."? Is that an insult? Lighting was the one area where I had no clue, and the lighting forum made me go cross-eyed (sorry, lighting forum). I finally walked into the local Ferguson (I didn't know they were a chain) and asked for help. They were very helpful and not pushy at all. In the end, there is only one recessed light I would have placed a little differently. (In front of the pantry - it kind of shines in my eyes vs. lighting up the interior). I was good on switch and outlet placement, it was just the lights themselves I was unclear on.

In your case, you are good on your entire lighting plan. I am so envious! Stick to your guns. Those guys aren't going to live in your house.

As for the radius on your granite, I'm not sure what they mean, but maybe our corners will help you think about what you want on yours. This is one of those "a picture is worth a thousand words" thing:

We like the corner radiuses, which were suggested by our fabrictor. The two roundy ones do not catch passing hips, and the kitchen-side corner one gives that little bit of extra work space at a point where you're less likely to whack into it on the way by.

I feel your pain! I think it's great that you know what you want after having done your research. It's also great that you have this remarkably talented group of TKO's to support you. Hold your ground! Good luck! It'll all be worth it in the end.

I agree with all the advice you've gotten above. Yes, put up some cheap fixtures for now, so they can finish *YOUR* plan and get the heck out.
Of all the things in a house, electrical and plumbing are the most difficult=expensive things to change after the fact.
Spend your energy on those, and "have the talk" with them.
Remember: My house, my money, my way.

We did a whole house reno 2 years ago and after our first "disagreement" my mantra became, just as iroll stated

My reno, my money, my way. It really is very simple.

And lighting is key. We have recessed lighting 4 feet apart, undercabinet lighting, pendant lighting over the peninsula and we still have one dark spot. But we all thought it would be fine. Stick to your guns. As someone mentioned the electrician knows current but not planning.

As a counter-point to what everyone else (including me) posted above, I should mention that some electricians are actually good at this stuff. Just not yours, from the sound of it.

My electrician (my contractor's, actually) was very helpful with lighting design, way more than my architect was. He took the plan I'd gotten from an interior designer and had good suggestions for moving some lights around (e.g. to avoid pointing straight down on where a couch will go), adding additional lights in the kitchen and a few other spots, adding switched outlets for over-cabinet lights, and so on.

So it is definitely possible to find good ones, but it doesn't sound like your contractor was lucky. Mine seems to have pretty good sub-contractors, maybe because he does a lot of custom homes where the clients demand really high quality.

BTW, if anyone needs a good electrician in the south SF bay area, let me know.

I feel your pain, I know how draining the experience can be.

Stick to your guns, and don't be bullied or talked out of what you planned. There is a ton of good advice on this thread.

My analogy to your being 'tired' and worn out is like the life of a pro boxer. They train and plan for a very long time. Then comes the fight. They are beat up for 9 rounds but can't afford to lose or let all of the hard work and training go to waste. At the start of the final round (you are here), they are exhausted, tired, ready to throw in the towel....but they don't. They know it's just a little more 'fight' left and it will all be over. To give up in the 10th round, as much as their bodies tell them to, they get up and keep swinging, sticking to their game plan to the end.

It may be corny, but you need to keep with YOUR game plan, keep fighting, avoid being beaten down and tired, you're almost done....you're in the 10th round, stick to your plan and don't give in to anyone, you've worked to hard to make it to this point!

Good luck!