In the township where my mom used to live there was a "built in catch". If you didn't get the appropriate permits, etc while doing the work--somehow when you go to sell your house they look to see if the correct paperwork was filed when work was done. If not, there is some sort of procedure--can't recall what it was--maybe fines, inspections? Not sure--it was a long time ago. Try to find out about that too.

I was just watching an episode of "Trading Up" the other day, and work was stopped because in their county/township they needed permits for everything like you are describing. And the work all needed to be performed by licensed electricians and plumbers--even if you are replacing an appliance. They were "caught" because the inspector was next door and saw some work being done which attracted his eye. I suppose if it is obvious you are having work done (dumpster, work trucks, etc) then you should be prepared to file for correct permits.

Ugh, I'm so sorry you are having such trouble so early on.

One of the first questions our contractor asked was whether we were pulling the permits or whether we wanted him to do so. He would not even cut a hole in the wall to look inside without the permit. We had him pull the permit and it took about 10 days to get the initial permit. We had inspections for building, electrical and plumbing -- good thing too, because though we had a MAJOR company do the gas work, they did not pass inspection on the first go around. The inspections did not take long, our contractor anticipated the finish date and then called ahead of time to schedule the inspection and then just made certain he was ready on the day/days of the anticipated inspections. There were costs associated with the permitting process, but not even close to 50%. There was always plenty to do (and our contractor planned it that way) while waiting for inspections. This was our experience-- for what it is worth. I'm sorry you are going through this -- unlike you, we had a wonderful experience with our contractor. He was youngish, but detail oriented and a complete pleasure. We were lucky. I hope your situation turns around soon.

Permits are there for your safety and the safety of people who might end up in your house after you leave (renters or new owners).

An ethical contractor would have clued you in on his plan to sidestep safety laws rather than blame you after you discovered his plan. As you have already discovered, this guy is all about (1) being very loose with things that have to do with safety (load bearing walls), (2) more than happy to set up situations (the wall and the pre-ordered cabinets, the permit) that you will get stuck with paying for. In other words, you already know that this is a corner-cutter, a blamer, etc. I would use the lack of a permit to cut my relationship with him and move on.

As someone who is just wrapping up a kitchen at the 9 month mark (major project and part DIY!) I can say that I'd rather have a careful and ethical contractor than have a fast kitchen.

Our permit didn't add much if any time to the work because the contractor scheduled the inspections as necessary.

Think about the examples you provided. You need a permit to remove an interior wall specifically because idiots like your contractor cannot identify when walls are load bearing and because they avoid using structural engineers to make sure they don't ruin your house. That's how a permit protects you.

As to messing with gas, why wouldn't you want to make sure that was as safe as possible. We get permits in my city for new water heaters, new furnaces, etc. and it's NO BIG DEAL.

On the plumbing, again, my city gives permits for plumbing. Why? read the posts about plumbing failures and what that does to your kitchen if there's a problem! Goodbye kitchen; hello insurance agent.

Your last example -- swapping in a new electrical panel -- just brings to mind the major fire down the street from electrical problems. Electricity is dangerous. A new electrical panel is a major deal. You want it done right. Why mess with your family's safety?

Here in MA each town has their own requirements. In my town for a major kitchen renovation the homeowner is not even allowed to pull the permit unless they are licensed in a trade. We're gutting 2 baths, adding a half bath, mudroom addition, bumping out the kitchen, moving the main staircase and adding a new HVAC system. Our permits will cost over $2000. My contractor is charging me directly for the permit but his time is already in the bid. They have a lot of other things to do so they are not just "sitting around". Some towns are vigilant when it comes to permits. I had a friend replace a few boards on their porch and inspectional services came by and wanted to see the permit. In this case he didn't need it because it was a minor repair. Another guy went to jail because his back stairs was built into the setback and he refused to rebuild it. Where I grew up no one got a permit unless they were tearing down their house or putting up a new one. Each local is different.

Me again, just some more thoughts.

I see lots of people in this and the other threads asking if you have a contract with this guy. I haven't seen an answer yet--probably just can't find it. I wonder can you tell him you want your money back now, or you will turn him in to the township as a GC that doesn't use permits. Also, is he licensed? Is he insured? Could you also let him you know you will inform his insurance company and whoever issues the licenses of this practice?

Sounds like you should not try to get away without the permits. At this point, if it was me, recouping any money I have given him would be where my focus would be. I think those GW'ers who say kick him to the curb might be right. It's most likely one of those decisions that once you make it, you will feel so much better. If you lose money now, in the long run, everything might turn out for the best. Maybe you need to call the other contractor....

The only way I've ever had work done on my house with no permits is minor interior or exterior work with little chance of getting caught. A kitchen remodel, like yours, is major work. If you fail to get permits, and the inspector stops by because he saw the dumpster or otherwise got word of the job, he can issue a stop work order which, if violated, is a misdemeanor. Then you'll have to apply for a permit, usually at double the fee (depends on the ordinance) because you failed to pull them in the first place. If you've built something contrary to code, or are planning someting not allowed, you'll have to change it, which adds to your cost.

50% more cost to pull permits to wait for inspectors? That's absurd. Most inspectors are pretty responsive, and will inspect the same or next day after they have been called. A contractor can work on other areas while they "wait." The more you write about this, the more leary I am becoming of your contractor.

I know you must be terribly disapointed about all of these troubles, but you do need to so things right. The biggest red flag for me is him telling you it will cost 50% more if you want a permit. He is trying REALLY hard to get you to do this without a permit. You have to ask youself why? Why is he trying SO hard to fly under the radar? Inspection do not take that much time. Something tell me he may have something to hide. A reputable contractor would want to do thing right. He would have never for one second tried to get around permitting if your area requires one. There are too many red flags going up about your builder. Sorry.

Cindy

In our town, any construction over $1000 requires a permit. The permit was a set amount, plus $X per $1000 of work, including labor...The towns way of increasing revenue. We also removed a load bearing wall, moved plumbing and electrical, as well as moved and enlarged a window. We had to include information on the new beam with the application. The Plumber and Electrician had to pull their own permits, which was included in their quote to us. Fortunately, they were able to coordinate all of the inspections to be done at the same time. I believe we only had two inspections. The first was before the new beam was covered and when the rough-ins were done for plumbing and electrical. The second was when everything was completed.

Before we had started the kitchen reno, we replaced our gas fireplace. Our GC recently told us that when the inspector came for the first inspection, they commented that the fireplace was new and we had not obtained a permit. The fireplace was something done totally separate from the kitchen with no involvement from our GC. We'll see what happens when I get my next tax bill.

I agree with ludy-2009 concerning the cost and the waiting process. IMO, it sounds like you're contractor just doesn't want the hassle. I look at the permitting process as protection for the homeowner against shotty workmanship. The inspectors will pick up if things are not done to code, which if not found now could turn into a real nightmare down the road.

Good luck. Hope Day 3 is going better.

I agree with all previous posters - DO NOT avoid the permit process for a job like this, and, DO look for a new contractor.

Luckily, our permit inspector caught a MAJOR carpentry mistake (supporting the kitchen ceiling, which has a room above it); one that even a structural engineer said was done wrong! Imagine if we hadn't gotten the permit, hadn't had the inspection done, and then had our office above suddenly start to sag down into our new kitchen! EECCCHHH!
Then, 2 weeks later, our inspector failed the propane line install. Imagine if somethign went wrong with that! EECCCHHH!

So, yes inspectors can take a bit too long coming out for the inspection.
And, yes, they can be a bit high and mighty with their attitudes, but, they are doing it for YOUR own good!

Your contractor should never have avoided this topic with you - it wasn't following work ethics. And, his saying he's going to charge you 50% more, also unethical.

While our carpentry and propane were delayed, we had the electricians and plumbers doing their work. There is always work to be done!

GL!

We are so in over our heads.

To answer your question: yes, we have a signed contract with him. We have paid him about 18k to date.

Here is the really hairy part and I am just kicking myself for having been so stupid.

We are in Virginia. He is licensed in Maryland. So the contract states that he is supplying materials Tony (who works for him) will be doing all the labor. Tony IS licensed in Virginia. All the work is being done under her license number. Even so, it just makes the situation even messier.

At this point I think we are considering terminating the relationship and going with the other contractor (who we should have gone with from day 1).

OMG, I am so sorry. Maybe it is time for an attorney so you can possibly freeze the account with your money and eventually recoup if he/she does not return the money voluntarily at your or your attorney's request. Do you have or know of a good attorney? You will probably works things out in the end . . . but a good attorney will help speed up the process and protect your rights and hopefully your cash in the meantime. By the way, we are in VA.

Sorry to Jump in Late....

If you don't get permits in SF they can charge you up to 4 times the original permit fee, if you get caught.

BTW, do not be hard on yourself and do not beat yourself up. You are sorting things out and getting to the bottom of things, as you should right now. This is a process, just move forward and continue to look for the correct path. It will be clear . . .just keep collecting information and focus on learning your rights and your options at this point. You WILL make it through and it will be fine.

Even besides your safety, think of the liability. If he makes a mistake that causes a fire and your insurance can trace the fire back to un-permitted work you can kiss your coverage goodbye. Imagine have your house burnt down in ashes, with no money to rebuild, and the contractor that is to blame is long gone with no way to track him down. All of that to save a little money on some permits.

We're in one of those cities that requires permits for everything. Friends remodeled and said it was awful to work with the city, and their were all these extras that they didn't know about until the inspector arrived. My neighbours remodeled and when I asked about her experience, she said the city has all these requirements, but that their GC knew about them and how to work with the city. Guess who will be getting a quote from.

We got a permit for our new dishwasher as we bought it from a store in town and you have to get a permit at point of sale. I called the inspector after it was installed, and it took 5 mins for him to check it out. We bought our new water heater in another city, and I didn't get around to getting a permit - it was an emergency purchase and install through a plumber. I'm not worried about that install because of other work they've done for me and friends in the past.

I know getting permits opens up a can of worms with our city, and if it was small work, I may not do it. I will for an extensive remodel though. And we'll hire a GC that is experienced with our city's requirements.

BTW, do not be hard on yourself and do not beat yourself up. You are sorting things out and getting to the bottom of things, as you should right now. This is a process, just move forward and continue to look for the correct path. It will be clear . . .just keep collecting information and focus on learning your rights and your options at this point. You WILL make it through and it will be fine.

Agree 100% with this. And sometimes you have to take a step backwards before you can move forward.

Either your main contractor or Tony should have pulled permits - Tony especially, since the work is happening under his license so he'll be liable. At this point in your shoes, I'd cut everyone loose and start again. It's utter BS for a contractor to sign on for a job, then say, "oh, you mean you wanted it done LEGALLY? That'll be 50% more." And fifty percent is a joke. I'm in NYC, where you need a permit to breathe during a home reno, and our permits run a few hundred bucks each, between the application fees and the expediter. We've racked up maybe $1200 in permits and renewal fees, and that's on a major six-figure job.

Check the outs in your contract, get as much of your 18K back as you can (less a fair price for the demo done so far and any materials costs the contractor has laid out). Then take a deep breath and get in touch with the other contractor.

Good luck and keep us posted.

I would put everything on hold. Call the other contractor and see if he'd like to take on the project. He may have some good ideas for you to get some of what the $18K went to. Do you know where the cabinets were ordered from? Are they ready or in progress? Possibly he didn't want to get the permits because he knows he doesn't have license. Are you sure that Tony's is even up to date? Good luck and like the others said, don't beat yourself up. It's not like we do this every day and we expect people to be honest. Problem is, some aren't.

Also, take lots of pictures of what he's done so far, and continue throughout your remodel. You'll be amazed at how they can help in the future, no matter how it ends up.

The others have already said the important stuff about permits, inspections and following the building code, so I'll just add a story:

Apparently South Florida is one of those places where there's the law and then there's the way things are done. People retire to South Florida all the time, or just move there because the weather is warm and everything is beautiful. Including this guy, call him Pete Jones, who bought himself a great parcel of land and built himself a house. He'd built houses before up North, so didn't think it would be too big a deal. He built a beautiful house. But then, about a year later, Hurricane Andrew huffed and puffed and blew South Florida down. Pete's house had some damage too. He lost part of his roof, and had a little water damage, but he'd put the plywood over the openings and all of that, and the house was pretty much okay. All of his neighbors' houses, ALL of them, were reduced to rubble.

A reporter went to interview Pete to find out what angel had interceded for him. Turns out it wasn't divine providence. Pete was puzzled too. He said he didn't do anything he could regard as special. He just followed the building code.

Oh my gosh, I am so so sorry! Others have indeed said the important stuff about inspections and permits (and I have known one who had to tear out an addition because permits were not filed), so I am just sending (((((hugs))))).

Just in case you still think permits aren't necessary:

Last spring one of my coworkers had the sale of her house held up while she applied for permits and inspections for a deck and spa that was originally installed without a permit. The home inspection revealed this "oversight" and the buyers would have backed out. In this market, she couldn't afford to lose a good offer. This process cost her extra money, time, and stress when she least needed it.

All the important things have been said about the permits.

I would be banging the drums loudly, threatening reporting him and Tony if they do not cough up the money fast.

I am not an attorney, but I would bet you might have an illegal contract based on the fact he was intending to violate the laws and ordinances of your state. Knowingly or not.

"DO NOT avoid the permit process for a job like this, and, DO look for a new contractor. "

this - and I would be filing complaints against this guy and this Tony person (if her lic isn't active etc). I'd be checking them both out. each state should have a registrar of contractors - call them and find out about these people. your contractors should be checked out prior to signing with them. see what other complaints have been filed against them.

you might lose some money now by ditching him - but i think you could lose much, much more if you stay with him.

if he hasn't pulled permits he is in violation of the law - use that.

This must be really upsetting for you. You finally get ready after planning and dreaming, and then run into thesw problems. But it's important they you do this right. Reading your posts, I have serious concerns about this contractor. Permits for work involving electrical, plumbing and gaslines are money makers, but they are also there to protect you from shoddy work. Had you had a permit for the wall removal, likely they would have reviewed your plan, inspected, and would have identified the problem. Have you talked to other people who have used this contractor?
Seems to me that you are going to continue to have problems, and extra charges, through the whole process with this guy.
Any way out of this?

Regarding permits -- we are about 98% done with our kitchen. We pulled the permit which cost us around $300 for the construction. Our electrician and plumber pulled their own permits. I wouldn't do it any other way. IF you had a fire or any damage connected to your construction (wiring, plumbing, etc) and no permits were pulled, your insurance company can refuse to act on a claim.

thank you all. sorry i have been MIA. have been sorting this out on top of trying to do my day job!

anyway - i did consult with my lawyer who said we are legally in the right here but that to consider trying to find a way to make this work at this point b/c of the money spent and the non-functional kitchen.

so, the contractor has now agreed to go the legal and proper route. work has ceased until he acquires the permits. cabs arrived today. and so we will move on with some time delays and probably increase in budget. clearly not the outcome i anticipate when first signing with this guy and not happy about havign to outlay additional money but i want the job done right and legally and when we weighed the option of going the lawyer route or dropping him and getting a new gc, it was just too much of a financial burden compared to the extra few thousand we are now having to spend to go the permit route.

again, thank you so much for all your advice. i feel like this was a very expensive and very valuable learning experience for me and you can bet your a** i will know all the right questions to ask when and if we ever embark on another home project.