Here is the information on how to post photos:
Posting pictures

I am no layout expert but I would think that a corner range (or cooktop/oven) in your situation would eat up a lot of counter and floor space and be too close to the sink... but photos and a diagram + measurements of the kitchen will help the people who can tell you more.

Does your budget run to moving appliances around (with associated electrical/plumbing/cabinetry costs) or do you need to stick to just changing out the appliances? You might have electrical upgrade costs either way.

And what's the November deadline all about? (This is just me being nosy, you don't have to answer. *grin*)

If the last time the appliances were updated was the 1960s, then yes, they will almost certainly need an upgrade on the electrical. They should get a well-recommended electrician in there to check out the box (see how many amps are going to the kitchen etc.) and the wiring.

I eagerly await layout pics so we can make more specific suggestions.

I'm guessing the November deadline is due to U.S. Thanksgiving (as opposed to Canadian Thanksgiving, which is in October).

Yes, Thanksgiving is exactly the reason we usually host 10 people! In December we have my niece and her two 6'3" sons visiting, and another 'guest' teen-ager. Then more family members - we're in Florida so we are the "destination spot" for the family!

We were planning on the expense of an electrician - we know a good one who has done some great work here before.

I tried to link the photos from FaceBook, but that didn't work. I found out that they block that feature. I'll have to look elsewhere to 'store' photos and then link here.

:)

You are already too late to begin to have even a mini kitchen reno complete by Thanksgiving. And, you would be wasting money to do anything less than an actual to the studs reno. There are just too many limiting factors which you are trying to find a way around by settling for something less than adequate.

Do Thanksgiving in a restaurant, and use the time between now and the new year to do the planning and education to be able to plan a more comprehensive reno that will give you what you and your kitchen needs.

Here is what we're working with:
{{gwi:1947762}}

And, you would be wasting money to do anything less than an actual to the studs reno.

You know, I have heard this too (from GW'ers and from IRL contractors) even though it sounds as though my kitchen may be more workable in its present state than TeacherBarb's. I don't dispute your experience or the truth of your statement but I will say that I get pretty discouraged every time I hear it. Where I live, a full gut redo would run at least $25K for the bare basics; most kitchen renos would be a good deal more, especially in older houses now that we have a lead-abatement law for renovations. That may not be a lot compared to many kitchen projects, but for many of us it's the difference between improving a kitchen and doing nothing at all. I don't want to hijack TeacherBarb's thread, and her situation may well be different than mine, but what do you recommend for people with older kitchens who need to update fixtures and/or make minor layout changes but can't (or don't want to) undertake a full-blown kitchen gut? Learn to like what we have even if it doesn't work too well, or DIY the whole thing, or move?

Barb, just saw your picture. If those are built-in cabinets like my parents' (one big long cabinet with doors attached rather than a row of individual cabinets) -- which is how it looks -- then no, you won't be able to move the cooktop without taking everything out to the studs as GreenDesigns says. And if you are willing to do that and have the budget for a full redo, then I agree that rethinking your whole floorplan (maybe of that entire section of the house) would be wise. I like retro and that is one cool oven (I haven't seen one like that before) but it does not seem at all to be an ideal location for it. I don't know the dimensions of the Advantium but I wonder if it would hang down so low over the cooktop, or if it would allow for venting.

I can't tell without seeing a full layout of your kitchen, but if you can't move walls or expand anywhere, I would guess that at least swapping the locations of sink and cooktop/oven would help (provided you can get plumbing to where the cooktop currently is, given that there's a FP behind it).

My parents needed to redo their kitchen due to ice dam damage. They had 1970s built-in-place cabs and drop in stove. They did a total gut and redid walls & ceilings due to water damage and had custom cabs built and intstalled in less than 12 weeks and it looks fantastic without changing to much of the plumbing and floor plan it is doable on a time table but the budget is the only question. Ge still sells 1 27 inch drop in range so they may still carry some smaller wall ovens too. for thanksgiving they sell turkey roasters and deep fryers if you want a home cooked family meal. One year i cooked my turkey on the grill due to a power outage. GL

Could you post a layout of your kitchen? That might at least help us brainstorm. In the meantime, I'd recommend researching the Advantium in depth to satisfy yourself as to whether it can roast a turkey. I think it can, but I wouldn't buy one without a good deal more research. Also, if you feel the Advantium isn't big enough, is your house set up such that you could have a cheap but good range in the basement--your basic $600 (new) gas range or something--to be used solely for big jobs (like turkey), and use the Advantium for everyday things?

But honestly, to me the first thing that comes to mind is that a good carpenter most likely COULD remove your cooktop and the cabinet it sits on, which would give you room for a range right there. And then your whole problem is solved, and in a very satisfactory way.

Depending how the cabinets are built he/she might need to reinforce them, but I just don't see why on earth it would be difficult, much less impossible, to take out that cooktop and oven, remove the cabinets, put in a range and a hood or an over-the-range microwave hood, and be done with it. How wide is your cooktop? If it's less than the standard 30" that ranges are, you could get a 24" or 27" range.

PS What I mean is, even if those are built-in cabinets, there is such a thing as a saw and such a thing as a skilled carpenter. Put the two together, and it becomes possible to remove the part of the built-in cabinet that the cooktop is sitting on. If the space inside the cabinets is completely open (no little "walls" from the cabinet boxes), you would then want to finish the ends of the remaining cabinets with pieces of plywood so that there is a buffer between the range and the cabinets/stuff in the cabinets, and also so that there is support for the counter and for the cabinet structure.

You may also need to patch the wall behind the part of cabinet that you remove, depending on how firmly the cabinets are attached to it, since pulling out that middle bit where the cooktop is might rip up the wall a bit. But that's all very doable, and in any case your electrician will want to get at that wall after the cabinet is removed to put in the necessary upgraded wiring, so even if you don't tear up the wall by removing the cabinet the electrician may tear it up himself.

In short, (1) locate good carpenter, (2) plan tear-out (do you need to finish the ends/reinforce the cabinets? what electrical upgrades do you need?), (3) remove cooktop and oven, (4) apply saw and carpenter to cabinet, (5) let the electrician work his/her magic, (6) clean up wall and floor (you will need to paint the wall behind the oven since nothing else you could put there would hang so low), and then (7) insert new range and (8) insert range hood or over the range microwave that vents. Voila! All done!

TeacherBarb posted earlier that she couldn't put a low oven (or I imagine a range) in the cooktop's current location because that's a shallow cabinet below, with the back of the fireplace jutting into it from the other room. Or that's what I gathered.

Here are two other views - moving to the right around the kitchen. I will put together a diagram for you to see, too:

{{gwi:1947763}}

{{gwi:1947764}}

That's right, northcarolina. There is a fireplace that cuts into the lower cabinet space below the present cooktop. Those are hurricane shutters halfway down the glass windows. We keep them low this time of year.

There is a fireplace that cuts into the lower cabinet space below the present cooktop.

Oh, right. I skimmed over that, sorry. It's layout time, then. Can you post a layout? A sketch that you scan or photograph is all we need, so long as the dimensions are on it.

By the way, how far does the fireplace cut into the base cabinets? Is it about the same in the cabinets below as it is on the cooktop itself? (It looks like the back of the cooktop is about 6" from the wall.) Also, has somebody gone out and shot the architect who designed that yet? Haha.

The reason you (or anyone in a similar situation) are getting the "rip it out" responses is that:

*You have structural issues that are difficult to work around in place and are severely limiting solutions to your problem.

*You will need substantial attention to electrical in order to even fit new appliances. Pre 1960 homes may even need all new electrical service to their homes in order to be able to have modern appliances and the other electrical requirements that a new kitchen (or one now being modified and that will now need to be brought up to code.)

*You will need substantial attention from a $killed carpenter in order to fit modern sized appliances and will still be left with less than stellar results from the money spent. Installation of new cabinets will cost about what modifying the old ones will, or might even be cheaper.

*You are considering swapping out plumbing locations in order to alleviate said structural issues that constrain you.

*You will pay more money to retrofit than you would to get everything out of there so they can do it right without workarounds. It's always cheaper to spend money on trades to do their work with everything demolished than it is for them to take the additional time to try to work around existing walls and cabinets.

*You are putting yourself under pressure to meet a deadline and that is foremost in your mind rather than how best to approach the project as a whole.

You're going to spend a chunk of money on this kitchen either way. The difference is that if you rip it out and start over, your money will go further and you will be left with better results. If you (or anyone else in this situation) can't afford the 30K for a whole kitchen redo, then spending 10-15K to hodgepodge it is wasting that 10-15K because that money could have gone so much further if you began with a blank slate. Start saving, and learn some DIY skills and bargain hunt at Habitat ReStores and Ebay and scratch and dent stores. But don't put good money after bad to end up with a poor compromise that you will need to address at some point later in time.

As much as I am a proponent of reduce, reuse and recycle, I have to agree that you would be reinforcing some problems and not getting a better outcome if you try to work with a poorly designed kitchen.
Live-wire is right that you should check out other sources, such as CL, ebay and Habitat Restores to get new cabs (and other materials). If you have an Ikea nearby, then that might solve that part. We love our Ikea cabs, btw. Assembled and installed they were approx half price what cabs alone elsewhere would have cost. Having them assembled and installed cost about the same as the purchase price if you need a rough guide.
The above sources are also great for appliances and the Habitat Restore by us has a great tile selection too. Ikea's appliances are a great bargain and usually they run a deal if you buy cabs and appliances from them. You can also get your counters through them as we did. Because we were getting our cabs there, at the time, the special was 40% off counters. We saved a bundle. We were already sold on the cabs, but the counters sweetened the deal even more.

I'd rather not throw good money after bad and would just wait a little longer and do it right. You can bargain shop better if you are not in a rush. I'd not spend another dime on your kitchen, other than to keep it running until you can fix it properly. I survived with a lousy kitchen for 5 years and am so glad we waited until we were finally ready. I could have face lifted it much sooner, but the outcome would have been so much less. The extra time gave me time to find some true bargains and save big.

How big is that thing? Both the depth and the width if you can of the cooktop including the trim. Or if you have the model, I might be able to find some literature.

If you are not up for the total gut job right now, you could go with the smaller oven over the cooktop and then install a full size range in your basement for handling large holiday dinners. I know it's not ideal but I have a friend who did this while she held out for her dream kitchen remodel. And on a happy note, she is snagging another neighbors used but gorgeous cabs that they are removing for their remodel and will soon have the kitchen she really wants.

Here is the kitchen design. The second shows lost space in red. Thank you for looking at these!! :)

{{gwi:1947765}}

{{gwi:1947766}}

We are in Florida and thus have no basement. We are looking into pricing on a full redo. This is in the home of my mother who is nearly 90. My concern is that she experience too much upheaval - but she did say she was up to it. Maybe it will be OK if we get all of our "ducks" in a row (or all of our "redo" in a row...). My measurements aren't perfect, but close. I did it after work today.

This was considered quite advanced in the mid-60's!! We've come a long way in kitchen design, haven't we?

Thank you all for helping! I have been looking at GardenWeb and researching for several years now!

You should be able to fit a new cooktop in the existing cabinet if that's what you'd like to do. The worst thing that can happen is you might suddenly need to replace the counter tops - maybe repaint the cabinets if the work people ding them.

I'd definitely go for the otr advantium. It looks like it would also fit both horizontally and vertically. The only issue to discuss with your mother is that the oven would end up higher than it is now by 3-6". Considering its a consolidation of the micro and oven - she might have an issue.

That's a tough one. Remodeling is just miserable and it could be hard on your mom (even though our generations' moms are pretty tough and also like new kitchens!). Doing a new cooktop and maybe an Advantium might work...and then put a big ol' countertop convection oven on the counter where the microwave is.

This could probably be done before turkey day. THEN you can reuse the appliances for the good remodel. You won't get a real remodel done by Thanksgiving even if you're ready to start now, I'm afraid.

An Advantium will require an electrician for a whole new 220 line unless you're talking about one of the 110 OTR versions---which will require it's own dedicated 110 line. Either way, you're talking about a $500 electrical visit, with the possibility that it will be money down the drain.

The 110 version isn't as fast or a capacious as the 220 version, and frankly, it wouldn't be worth having to wire for it specially. It's one thing if you're dealing with a simple plug in and use it situation. But by the time you add the $500+ of the electrician to the $700-$2K of the cost of the oven, it brings it's cost/utility value way down. Replacing the cooktop, sure. You can do that without any work behind the walls. Buy a countertop convection oven, sure. As long as you are prepared to pop your breakers, it will be worth it and can be reused in a lot of places because it's portable. That will get you through the next few months and even years until you can afford to tackle this with the time and budget it needs.

TeacherBarb,

We celebrated one Christmas overseas with my extended family and the rental ended up not having a working oven-surprise! We all pitched in, completely changed the menu and had one of our favorite Christmases ever.

You have two separate goals and you need to divorce them from each other:
1. Your kitchen needs appliance and remodeling help
2. Your family wants to gather together the last Thursday of November.

Take it from me, you can have a blast this Thanksgiving whether it's in a restaurant or barbecuing. As yet another idea, your extended family could also rent a place with a kitchen. Approach it as an adventure and enjoy!

You will also enjoy your remodel much more if you don't have a deadline looming over your head. Sure, you might get done, but realistically, you might not. Or, you will make compromises for the sake of expediency that you will later regret.

Good luck!

Thanks for all of your help. My mother can probably afford a redo, but she is in the generation where you are absolutely careful with your money. She has been watching the market and is concerned with what is going on there. Also, my own son-in-law is in the business of kitchen and bath remodeling. He does do an amazing job and would give us a good price. He said it could be done in three days. There is the possibility that Mom could visit my sister for those three days. I also know that sometimes three days in not three days... :)

She would not want the table to be taken away, and there is a drop ceiling in the kitchen that matches the shape and design of the kitchen table. She does her bills on that table and loves that design. Otherwise, an option would be to eliminate the table, extend the counter, and put an oven/cooktop there. Putting an oven/cooktop in the corner (where the microwave is now) is very close to a water source (sink) and that is probably an issue. Placing the oven/cooktop just to the right of where it's located now would leave that area "uncentered" and she doesn't like that. Moving the refrigerator (or just a wall oven) to where the pantry is located (cutting into floor space) doesn't seem to be an option for her to even consider, she loves her pantry, although I think that would be one of the better and easier fixes. As you can see, there are limitations all over the kitchen area.

What we came up with was that we would do the small fix for now - Advantium and cooktop, and perhaps make BIG changes in the spring when all of the guests have gone. My son-in-law called last night and said he could do a full remodel in a short amount of time. Perhaps she can mull over some ideas and we can see what the spring brings for us.

We have had electrical work done and know of a good electrician and would do the rewiring. We can afford to do that with no problem. THAT is something that will be done. The oven and stove both work, but part of wanting the change is to update the electrical systems AND appliances. She is unable to cook so she wants me to choose everything.

My mother has health issues, which is why I moved in with her a few years ago. She also is trying to keep a certain amount of money available should she need hospitalization.

Basically, the mandate I was given was, "Let's change and update but leave *these* things alone." We have been working on ideas (mostly looking for an over the cooktop oven) for four years. I kept coming back here, became frustrated at the limitations, and any remodel work was dropped. She brought it up with a time limit last week.

I am still open for ideas - she may come around on some changes. We do have a wonderful family and am sure we would have great holidays even if nothing worked. I appreciate the support and understanding this dilemma. It hasn't been easy, and I want her to be comfortable which is why I have never pushed her to make any changes.

We were looking at the larger sized Advantium which I think is the 220 model. The salesman didn't say anything about it not being able to go over the cooktop. Over the long weekend, I was unable to phone GE to ask questions (they were closed on Sunday and Monday and the mandate came on Saturday).

Our biggest concern was whether or not we could cook a turkey because we took a photograph to the salesman so he could see what we were working with. He KNEW we wanted to place it over the cooktop. It was the larger Advantium - you say it won't work?

That would take away our fallback idea... :(

There are 3 basic advantium models that can go over a cooktop - 209 volt for about $1200 "cooks 8 times as fast"
- Cafe styled 120 volt for $500-$750 "cooks 4 times as fast"
- Profile styled 120 volt for $750-$850 also 4 times as fast

All have the same rated capacity of 1.7 cu ft. If you look at a 1.7 cu ft micro, that's its size.

I'm thinking your existing unit is likely wired for 240 volt. That would be typical for an electric cooktop and oven. The electrician would know for sure.

Because I'm a worrywart, I'm adding that its perfectly possible to recycle an otr advantium into a new kitchen plan placed above the cooktop, but its not possible to install it in a stack with a "normal" wall oven.

Also, and this is just my opinion, do think about getting an induction cooktop. Yeah, getting the magnetic pans can be a bummer, but they really are so much better than coils or a smoothtop.

Plus for a turkey, look at doing the turkey partially cut up. I did it last year - cut the leg quarters off and cut the back out. "Reassembled it" on the platter with the help of the stuffing holding up the breast. Looked just like a whole roasted turkey. Instructions here. It turned out great and the bird would fit!

Here is a link that might be useful: GE Advantium models

Just an FYI...the corner idea probably wouldn't have worked anyway. For a 30" range, you need approx 48" of wall space on each side. That would put the range and sink within scant inches of each other.

I really like that kitchen's trim style. With the outstanding exception being discussed, it's obviously been a really good kitchen. That stove/oven thing was designed during a "golden age" that was supposed to see the emancipation of women from cooking via prepackaged meals. They probably imagined the happy housewife lifting little cellophane-topped TV dinners in and out of it while hubby relaxed with his martini. How's that for the "what's HOT today out tomorrow discussion?

I don't know if anybody pointed this out, TeacherBarb, but--why not get that carpenter Ideagirl recommended in and install a regular oven (good name-brand quality and condition $100-200 on Craig's List) under the counter somewhere else? I have a drop-in cooktop and specifically moved the oven farther down the counter so I wouldn't be standing in front of it to work. Love both.

The big requirement is 240 volts for both, which you already have to the stove. That existing 240 can almost certainly be legally run to a new location on top of the wall (not tearing out wallboard), such as attached tidily to the inside back of the cabinets. You would supposedly need an electrician for that simple job, including connecting the wires via a box, unless, as here in Georgia, it were legal for residents of a home to do this work for themselves.

As long as you don't run into any catastrophic electrical issues, though, the whole thing really shouldn't be that big a deal. Hardest would probably be deciding what to change for a new oven location.

If you can't get your renovations done before your guest arrive or the Advantium is too small there are work arounds. Our oven died before our kitchen renovation and my new range wouldn't fit in the old kitchen. I had 20+ people for Thanksgiving (and 10 - 30 people per night for dinner the few days before and after) and made it work. We grilled the turkey. Yes, it doesn't look pretty because you butterfly it but if you just serve the meat on the platter it works great (Vs carving the turkey at the dining room table). It also takes a lot less time. We still grill the turkey since it's so tasty. We used the crock pot for the stuffing. Unbelievably moist and you can prepare it ahead of time and it's ready whenever. We still do it this way.

An Advantium has a hard time with a full sized chicken. It can do a small "spring" type chicken, but the larger roasting chickens won't fit. It would die in fright if you showed it a 1/4 turkey. It is in no way a substitute for a real oven. You won't be doing a meatloaf in there, because of the amount of smoke and the heavy cleanup required. You won't be doing cakes or baking either. A pan of brownies, or couple of frozen biscuits, sure. But no real baking. If you need those tasks to be done, then a countertop convection oven is your choice for that. And, it won't fit a turkey.

A wall oven of any kind cannot be positioned over a cooktop. Period. Stop. Go directly to jail after your home burns down! You can have a Over The Range MicrowWave (OTR MW) over a cooktop, as long as it has the proper clearances. It is designed (and certified by UL) to be able to handle the heat of the cooktop. The Advantium comes in such a configuration and I own one---mounted under a regular cabinet because it's fan isn't remotely adequate or quiet. If you decide it has a usable capacity for it's trouble and you can modify the cabinetry for it's needed clearances, it is a possibiity for you to get you through until a real remodel can be in the works.

You are getting some dangerous and incorrect advice regarding the electrical in your home. If you do choose a 220 Advantium version, you cannot "split" the current 220 that serves your range module. It will have to be an all new 4 wire (NOT 3 wire) circuit from your electrical box to the spot where you want to add the oven. Even if you go with a 110 version, you will need an all new dedicated 110 outlet. It cannot be on the same circuit as anything else. You cannot run wire by just laying it across upper cabinets! That's highly dangerous! All wire has to be behind walls or in an approved protective conduit. No lines can be "extended" unless in proper accessible junction boxes. And you cannot extend a current 220 line at all because the NEC has changed and 4 wire circuits are now required instead of the old 3 wire ones.

It's lucky that you have an electrician in the family, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't still make sure he is licensed and insured for your own sake. And he should also pull the proper permits to work on the home. That can come back to bite you big time down the road.

Um, and I have to say that there isn't a single contractor on the face of the earth that can redo a kitchen in 3 days. Even with working teams around the clock and having all kinds of production interns at their beck and call, they can't even do that on a HGTV show. It's unrealistic. And worse, it's dangerous. Any contractor that can tell you this with a straight face, even if they are family, is telling you a big fat lie. The rewiring and drywall work alone will take over a week to accomplish! And you are dealing with some issues that are going to need a lot of creative soutions. I'd expect your reno to take at least 3 months if not a year---because family is involved. That usually slows things down rather than speeds them up because your work is always on the back burner to them taking other jobs.

You can have a quality job. You can have a cheap job. You can have a fast job. Pick two. You cannot have all three.

People love those Nesco (?) countertop roasters.

I've cooked a turkey on a grill for Thanksgiving (in Michigan--you have the Florida thing going for you there) during a kitchen remodel. I just put it in a roasting pan and pretended it was an oven. I'm thinking butterflied and grilled properly would be pretty good but that's not the subject. :)

Let's back up and start over--you want to replace appliances. All of them? And are they not working?

And I like a deep counter. Can't you just plop in a range where the inverted range thing is now and just have it stick out into the room? Pull the neighboring cabinetry forward (much easier said than done, but that's what son-in-law is for) and voila, everything is level with fridge. Oh yeah that's easy. Hehe!

I bet your mom will miss that overhanging cooktop. That is quite ergonomic and simply not done anymore (but might be if I ever get the guts to remodel again!). You can even pull up a stool when you're making a roux.

Are you on a slab or crawl space?

Ohmygosh. I think Fori nailed it. The Advantium issue is a red herring.

Put in a normal-depth range, pull everything on that wall out by the 10" or so that you need to line up with the range (or a little less and let the range stick out a little). You even get a "counter-depth" fridge out of the deal gratis. What do you give up? About 10" of counter space on one wall. What do you gain? Cheap, quick, minimal disruption for mom, you get to keep the custom table that matches the ceiling, etc. Put off the full remodel until a more convenient time.

I agree with the others that there are other ways to deal with Thanksgiving. However, if you wish, you could even (a) plop a normal range in that space, having it stick out until Nov. 24, (b) enjoy T-day, then (c) have SIL schedule the cabinet/countertop work for sometime after that.