New methods and materials take more time to learn to do properly. Time is money to a contractor. If they can spend the same amount of time doing 2 jobs in the old way rather than learning how to do something new but only doing 1 job, they'll pick the 2 every time. It's of higher benefit to their bottom line. The secret to getting old dogs to learn new tricks is to translate it to their bottom line. They either have to understand that it's a faster process, which translates into more money for them. Or it has to be a more upgraded process, which they can charge more money for. If an "improvement" doesn't do anything but benefit the homeowner, it's unlikely to be adopted by a trade unless he can charge you more for it.

I know what you mean. Yesterday, I was at the tile store and I heard a contractor telling clients about "new-fangled epoxy grouts."

Obviously the owner (who was standing right there) should not have jumped in to say something then, but there might be some ways to deal with this in subtle ways, for instance creating an e-newsletter for your contractor customers with links to some forums that discuss these products.

It is frustrating that so many people just want to do a quick job and are not interested in problem solving. My cabinets are not standard depth, and I was told over and over again that I would have to get new cabinets to get a dishwasher. Then I read on-line that I could take the wall behind the cabinets back to the studs, which would give me the inch of room I needed! (Some people even remove the stud and reinforce around the area in various ways.) I was amazed that three contractors I talked to initially couldn't even think of this. Perhaps there were issues about trying to make it a bigger job than what I wanted, but I really think that they just couldn't "think outside the box."

It also means the homeowner may be walking a fine line with making decisions. I would not want my bathroom to be the first time a contractor used a particular method that they weren't familiar with. For example I want to do a wetroom style bathroom in my new house, but am hesitant to use any contractor that is not well versed in the technology,--so it may not happen.

And then there's the opposite problem: trying to find someone who knows old materials. We needed someone who could build with adobe. There appears to be exactly one person in San Diego county who's an expert (read "is competent") and she's in her late 70s. Slapdash "I can figure it out" is available, but not what was needed. I suspect the same is true for various kinds of old stonework.

It can be frustrating when you know more or are more up to date than the crew working on your project. Take the 30 year master plumber my contractor uses. I was talking about how I wanted the plumbing set up, especially including an RO system in the sink base. Everything I wanted was within code. But every time I said something my contractor would iterate the fact that the plumber is a "30 year master plumber." It got to the point where I quipped, "Look, that only tells me that he's been doing the same sh!t for 30 years, it doesn't tell me how good he really is." Sure enough, I meet the guy and we have a discussion and it turns out that my RO install was the first one he's EVER done. EVER! And he used all brass fittings. He even joked about putting it on his resume. I had to explain the chemistry behind RO to him.

To his credit, my cabinet maker did tell me that he's one of the few who actually installed my Bosch DW the way it's supposed to be install relative to the cabinets. Most people have it pushed way too far in with the gasket too far back.

It just goes to show that some people just like to do what they know and collect a check. Nothing more and nothing less.

I've come to think that intelligence, problem-solving skill, and pride in workmanship are more important than experience, since as you've all noted, experience sometimes raises the question, "experience with what?" For me, finding the right person to do our kitchen update meant talking to a lot of people (neighbors, friends, colleagues) before calling anyone about doing the job, and also not just calling that contractor's references, but actually walking through other people's homes and scrutinizing the work that was done -- grout lines, centering of lights, etc.

I also prefer to find people who are willing to be paid by the hour, instead of bidding a job. My (minimal) experience with bids has been very negative, since I've found that the work-people try to get out as fast as they can, since every minute they aren't in my house is money in the bank for them, and when I calculate the number of hours worked and materials in relation to the bid, in every case, I've felt like I've overpaid by hundreds and hundreds of dollars for a job that was seemed acceptable at the time. Often later, I've discovered something wrong (such as, a few years ago when our RO was hooked up to our fridge with a copper tube, instead of a plastic one).

My hubby's been a contractor for 30 yrs. The bane of his existence has been the hacks out there. He spends most of his time correcting past mistakes from these losers...&, let's face it, most contractors are not the brightest bulbs on the tree & often have addictions. Most are not "professionals" who are passionate about their skills, doing things right, & problem-solving.

Re new products/materials: There has been such an explosion of new techniques, new product, & new technology, that it's hard to keep up with when you're working 60-70 hrs a week. It's not unusual for a homeowner to know more about new products than the contractor, as the homeowner has spent tons & tons of hours in research on the internet & magazines for many months in their planning for their specific wants & needs. We subscribe to various industry publications to try to keep up, but it's virtually impossible to have first hand knowledge of everything & every element of product.

One of hubby's challenges that he loves is doing something in a way that's never been done before. He has the skills to do new things properly, but hacks will never have the interest to do this. Homeowners are spending unprecedented amounts of money on their kitchens & bathrooms with very high end products that the average homeowner didn't even have access to, nor "had to have" in the past. Just a few years ago, neither he nor I (as a designer) even had requests for kitchens & baths. Now it's all we do. We've had to learn fast & learn well. I know that we love it when we go into a tile store & see the constant influx of new product. Sometimes it makes my head spin. Hubby has to ask about installation techniques on a lot of this, cause techniques can vary so much from product to product now. A contractor may do 12 major projects a year - that doesn't leave for much experience in every product out there.

Just as there's variation in good salespeople, & in homeowners' needs & wants, there are variations in contractors. Just keep up the good work, & we will too.

~Jeana

I get that defense mechanism when I tell them, "Don't use mastic in a shower." "Well, I've been using that for 20 years." Well, don't. Then they get mad and I don't want a frustrated, defensive, mad contractor doing my job or anyone else's. The kind of attitude like, "Fine, I'll use something different, but when it's crappy, don't blame me...." and I just hope they don't do crappy on purpose to prove their point. Know what I mean?

Nearly every contractor I found, both personally and in this job, has some issue. One guy loved Kerdi products (yay... finally), but didn't read the directions on the grout we use most and we were constantly getting complaints that the grout was not the right color. He was wiping it down too soon and there was a haze. But god forbid you tell him how to grout. He got mad and blamed the grout, which our rep ended up testing and the rep's turned out fine. Tiler said, "well, sure, he used different conditions and the water might have been different.... " What? It's more of a maze of defensiveness and pride than of workmanship and quality.

Well, let's face it...no one likes to be told how to do their job. And hubby has been treated like nothing more than a bum by some homeowners. So sometimes it's all about the amount of attitude & deliverence of the information, & communication skills between homeowner & contractor. This is, after all, a relationship. Hubby has spent MONTHS at a homeowner's house, day after day, 12 hrs a day, so it gets to be like a marriage sometimes. But that's what is needed - a marriage. And marriages are going to have spats. But those spats need to happen with respect & LISTENING - on both sides.

~Jeana

If "everyone" you meet has a problem - it isn't them - it's you.

There are hacks in every trade, but just because someone doesn't want to hear a sales pitch about every new product doesn't make them one. If you are salesman and your potential buyers are getting annoyed with your constant suggestions, then you aren't being very effective, are you? You might be right or you might be wrong, but it doesn't matter much if your customers tune you out.

For the sake of writing the post, I'm more blunt on here and venting... in real life, I am not hurling demands and I am having constructive conversations. I don't tell them their idiots who know nothing. I simply say, "I'm not sure mastic is supposed to be used in the shower" or "with this glass tile, it does specify a certain thinset...." but I'm met with "that's not how I do it." My question is why not follow the directions from the manufacturer or say, "Really? I've using mastic for 20 years, I didn't think there were any issues, but I'll look into that." Bill V can come on here and say "NEVER use mastic in a shower"... but no one tells him he's being harsh. He's just being correct. If I am selling stuff, I want our installers to use correct materials. If it's for my own house, I want installers to use correct materials. Why the push back by contractors to continue to do something that is not correct just for status quo sake?

It's MANY (in my experience) contractors wanting to do things against code and against specified directions on the bag or box, using incorrect materials, even when it's brought to their attention that I'm frustrated about. I don't know if they just don't know any better, or that they do, and don't care. If you don't bring it to their attention, then it's my or the customer's own fault if their shower falls apart in 5 years. If you do, then how dare you question the expert. That doesn't make sense.

Bill, I do sell stuff, and I do remodel my own house, and either way, it doesn't seem out of line to ask about Kerdi or installation procedures or whatever is out there. There is never a "Really? I didn't know that existed. That Better Bench sounds neat" reaction. I'm also talking about real life experiences, where a tiler swore nothing, but NOTHING would change the color of my natural stone, even though the place that sold me the tile said "wet it down so you can see what it will look like sealed". Neither the tile shop or the installer said the word "enhancer", and I was a stupid consumer at the time. After the tile was taken OFF the wall, because we thought it was the wrong tile, the tile shop said "Didn't you use a sealer/enhancer?" Once we did that, voila.... it changed from gray to brown. It wasn't the tiler's responsibility to tell me what product to use, but how did the guy with 30 years experience not realize that the enhancer would have colored the stone? I've done backsplashes for 2 years, and have used enhancer 90% of the time with travertine, slate, marble, etc, and it does affect the color, sometimes drastically... he never encountered that in 30 years? So yes, I became the consumer who researched what I bought and how it was to be installed, and I'm amazed that I know more than SOME contractors, not ALL.

If someone has been doing this for decades and has never been interested in learning something new or expanding their knowledge, then they must not love their job. That is my opinion with anyone in any field. Jeana, I'm not referring to your husband on that, and if he is an excellent craftsman and listens well, he is not who I'm talking about at all. I wish there were more of those out there.

Sorry if this sounded harsh... I just thought this was a place to be a little frustrated, and I would never try to make anyone feel bad. I honestly was just wondering what the reluctance was with MANY of the contractors I meet. (Trying to not generalize, so Billl sees my point. :)

And Jeana, I just reread your original post with more attention, and you made some excellent points. It is hard to know everything about everything. It's great that your husband will try new things and admit when he doesn't know about something. I have had contractors who resisted and then said "Hey, I really like this product... I'll use it again", so again, it's not all a one-sided experience for me, either. I don't expect all contractors every time to say "What's new in tile? What can I learn today?" But I wonder about the ones who aren't open to at least correcting their techniques if it's brought to their attention that it could possibly be wrong or even detrimental to the homeowner (tile falling off, mold in grout, etc.). Thanks for the insight.

Annetta, I can't help but wonder whether your gender is also a factor here. (I'm assuming your name means you're female!)
As a single woman homeowner hiring contractors, I have definitely run into the "I'll take it from here, little lady, you just run off and get your hair done now" mentality on occasion. These are the guys I avoid like the plague when I'm hiring, but obviously this isn't possible if you work with them in a business relationship.

It is hard when you are actively engaged and interested in exploring the process and techniques of the work, and possibly have more time to do so than the tradespeople themselves. Vent away, and know you're fighting the good fight for the sake of the trade itself.

Of course, this dilemma of the educated consumer holds true in many interactions with professionals of all stripes -- ever try to tell a medical doctor which medication you've researched as the best one for your needs? ;-)

Thanks, Circus... and from that name, I can tell nothing :) It might be that I am a gal, and also, as I disclaimed earlier, am not an installer. They might thing "easy for you to suggest... I have to do the work, and this is easier for me to do it my way." And yes, doctors can be the same way.

And rereading my post, I always try to see from the perspective of someone who could bash me... I probably shouldn't have said if they aren't willing to learn new things, they must not love their job. I'm guilty of just enjoying what I know and do what I feel comfortable with, too. I just always think that as time goes on, new technology or new ideas can benefit us. I was an admin assistant before there were computers, and now look. As a parent, I enjoyed finding new gadgets that my mom never thought of to help with situations. I guess I find that fun and for a professional, new ideas could put them ahead of their competition. Especially when every homeowner CAN access the internet and find stuff supporting techniques, etc. When I find a contractor who seems to agree with things I've read from the industry, I get kind of excited, like "this guy's on top of things", even if he just says he's interested in learning more. Doesn't have to be an expert. Just not set in his ways. That's all I am trying to say.

And I guess I am talking about two different things: Learning and using new products, and not using out-dated installation techniques. Probably the latter bothers me more than someone who doesn't know the latest thing. Somewhere along the line, they will probably have someone say "you shouldn't do it this way...." Now whether they take that knowledge with them to the next job, research it and implement a better way, I don't know... maybe they do, and I just don't see that. Maybe they don't give me the satisfaction of seeing that. ;)

It was fun, at first, to have something that the gc or subs did not know about, but after a while, it gets very old to hear we have not heard of that or that is not something we'd be comfortable installing. I hired a gc to supervise our project and ended up hiring several subs of our own to do the many things they were not versed in. The gc's company is a well established company with many years of experience. His subs were all in their trades for awhile. It seems like unless you order vanilla, you need to bring in your own specialist. I figured the gc would take the opportunity to become more knowledgeable for when working on the next house... If he learned something new on ours (not ideal for us though) he could then be more ready for the next homeowner. If that had been true, he'd have been better prepared when he got to us from learning in the past!

I think some of it comes down to passion. I'm passionate about my home and potentially more interested in learning about new materials and ideas than someone who is just doing the work because it's his or her job.

Unfortunately I'm less passionate about what I actually do for a living. I don't like to read business books but love to read travel books and forums, and, clearly, home-related forums. So the people who worked on my home may not be passionate enough about their work to look into new methods and materials, which would likely have to happen in their off hours, right? Who is going to pay them to go research something new? Maybe on their off hours they're following a completely different type of interest altogether and when they're on the clock they're just trying to get a job done.

If you find someone whose job (cabinetry, tiling, building, etc.) is also their passion, I'd say you're very lucky. And I'd say they're in a very good place too.

If a contractor is in the middle of a tile job and here comes the consumer crying about how X isn't being done, then it's no wonder that each is dissatisfied with the other. The time to discuss how the project will be installed is in the initial quote phase when it's being bid and can be charged for, (or declined) not after it's already begun. The job bid is based on the specs that the homeowner develops. It's not fair to ask that new methods and materials be used on your job if you didn't specify exactly that during the bid process. If you didn't do that and now you're trying to tell them how to do the job that they bid, it's not going to go well. They are rightfully resentful of "being taught" by a homeowner, because, if the homeowner knows how to do it so well, then why aren't they DIYing?

I've dealt with plenty of contractors in my job and in my home. Most of even the most irascible old coots have been gracious enough to take technical suggestions from me if I were hands on and showed them rather than just shoved a publication into their hands or tried to show them a video on a shaky hand held laptop. In their world, unless you're willing to get your hands dirty, then you don't have any credibility. And if you have a less than direct communication style (as many women do) and say, "Would you mind?" or "Could you possibly?" etc., then you're not helping yourself to be seen as credible either. Beating around the bush is seen as weak. And it is. You just list the requirements for the job during the bid, and if the bid document is not being followed, you firmly refer them back to that document and subsequent contract where all materials and methods of installation are laid out. That's your position of strength.

A lot of being open to new ideas is how and when those new ideas are presented. :)

If you are a showroom, there is nothing wrong with holding trade shows (with free food and drink!) in order to showcase new methods and materials for your customers. That is an attractive method to disseminate information. Hands on education is always the best, and no one likes to have the first time they do some thing be an "experiment" that may not go well for a paying customer. I may be fortunate, but I don't know any contractors that I've used that wouldn't attend such a seminar, or series of seminars.

live-wire_oak has a valid point about the initial discussion/hiring phase - the homeowner should be asking these types of questions & probing the "relationship" or the communication or flexibility of the contractor before hiring. They should know if they will be using subs & the comfort level with that. The materials should be chosen (for the most part) before the job starts & a discussion about those choices & installation process should be had right then & there. We MOSTLY meet with homeowners at the tile store & have guidance of those experts as a team. We will meet with them at the kitchen & bath showrooms & select as a TEAM. As a design/remodel team, perhaps we have an edge on products, cause what I know hubby doesn't & what hubby knows, I don't. So we discuss between us & with the homeowner & all of our partnerships what the best course of action is with all of that collaboration. We keep each other focused on what & what not can be done regarding all aspects. We know that we are providing the best we can for the homeowner.

Annetta, no offense taken at all...we KNOW the frustration out there with what homeowners face with remodelers. It's a crime what some people do, & we have to face the fear & distrust every day because of homeowner's horrible experiences with remodelers. I think what we all are saying to you is that there is a responsibility on ANY homeowners part to communicate well with the contractor. And if you aren't comfortable with whatever you require & with the flexibility of them & their knowledge, then that contractor shouldn't be hired.

I wish everyone can have an overall good remodeling experience, but there will ALWAYS be hiccups in the process...there are just SOOOO many variables that can stall a project or cause an unanticipated issue. I ALWAYS warn clients of that...& sometimes tha causes concern for the homeowner, but I am being honest.

I love this conversation!!!

~Jeana

I've run into the same thing in my own home remodel. We had been DIYing the entire thing, but life (babies, specifically) happened and we decided to hire some things out. Now, I have a degree in architecture and have hands-on experience from doing a lot of work myself. When I've caught mistakes and errors, the contractor always says, "Well it's the way we've always done it...(sigh) but we'll change it if it makes you feel better." Yes, getting it done right WILL make me feel better!

"As a person who now sells materials for tile installation and deals with installers daily, I see new products and even old ones that are fabulous for certain applications, but to find a contractor who will pause to hear about it is difficult. Why is it that contractors rely on tried and true installation methods even when there might possibly be a better way? And what if the "tried and true" actually isn't even accepted anymore? "

Is YOUR reputation is on the line with 'new' products?

Are you going to cover the costs?

There are not a lot of actual "tried and true" methods that are no longer accepted.
Most of the 'improvements' and 'advances' are faster and cheaper, but often not actually better.

Cement board is far more common that a thick mud bed job.
It is not and never will be better, just cheaper and faster.

annettacm is right about the main thrust.

Many experienced people
WON'T read fine print instructions on the bag of cement, and
will only do what they want to do based on their experience.

Ask any cement company trainer about this. I know of a trick that one manufacturer (Mapei) played on the trainees, all industry experienced people who came for a free day of training with goodies as gifts. Mapei had them do two batches of cement and compare the results. In one of the two batches they ensured the trainees all followed the slake times "because in this batch it will only work this way". Everyone loved the second batch. Later in the day, they foudn out it WAS the EXACT SAME cement mix. Mapei just got the guys to see the difference when they follow instructions. Duh.

In my reno's, I have been able to enforce my willpower over these kind of know-it-all oldtimers because I know how to be forceful at the drop of hat. That is now. BUT I got screwed several times before I learned how to manage these guys. Sometimes there is a real advantage in knowing when to be crude blunt and "violent" (the latter term meant in a metaphoric sense only, of course).

Even Master Plumbers and Electricians have made mistakes and taken shortcuts, that I have seen, when working on renovation projects. In most cases they will redo the work gladly if you are paying for their time all over again. (!) (but paying twice is a lot better than most of the other options you are faced with on that day.... )

Thank you annetta.

The contractors who are willing to go to training classes aren't the problem - it's the contractors who DON'T go to training classes that are the problem. They think they know it all & no one can teach them anything.

That said, that goes for anyone in any profession - constant training & updating is key.

Now, just because you train in or research a new technique or product doesn't mean you have to use it...perhaps there's validity in not using it, cause not everything new IS better. But some ARE worth it. The key is the attitude & willingness to possibly improve your profession & if a homeowner brings up a technique, at least be able to INTELLIGENTLY & RESPECTFULLY explain to the homeowner the valid reasons for not using that technique or product. There have been times when a homeowner has insisted on doing something that my hubby vehemently was against doing, & he had them sign off on a statement saying that he bears no responsibility for the product or technique.

Again, it all comes down to communication, contracts, & documentation.

In the case that I was thinking of when I wrote my earlier reply, it wasn't even really a new technique or product. When his guys installed the drywall, the bottom of the sheet was touching the floor. I told them that there is supposed to be a gap of 1/4"-1/2" at the bottom to account for movement in the house and so it doesn't wick up any water or other moisture from the floor into to the wall. "Well if a house this old settles any more, you're going to have bigger problems than a couple of cracks in your drywall." Yes, and I'd like to deal with THOSE problems on their own and not have the ADDITIONAL cost of having to repair cracked drywall! Do you think he'd come back in 1, 5, 10, 25 years to repair the damage because of an installation error that I accepted as good enough? I wouldn't count on it! "But if it makes you feel better" is such a cop out - makes me feel like I'm the one being unreasonable! (Oh, please tell me I'm not...it's hard for me to say with all these pregnancy hormones!)

Anenemity - "But if it makes you feel better" is so patronizing!! You might come back with, "Yes, it would make me feel better if you followed industry standards." Actually, I have no idea what the industry standards are concerning drywall, but I presume you do. How about, "Yes, it would make me feel better to know that you knew and followed best practices while working on my house."?

And I say that these patronizing & incapable contractors are fired immediately.

~Jeana

I find there is an issue that contractors have brand loyalty to the point of idolatry! For example, Kohler is King here (the Kohler factory is just a drive away over the Wisconsin border), and when you suggest Grohe, or Rohl, or KWC, well, I've had all kinds of comments like - "those faucets will be a different size hole than the Kohlers", "they'll break and you'll never get those forin parts", "never heard of 'em (with sceptical expression)", "too fancy for my blood - what you need that for?", "why can't you buy American?", "that faucet installation will cost you extra cause it's foreign design", etc. Then, when I buy the faucet, and they install it, they're grudgingly surprised at the quality. Or, how about my electrician who had only installed Broan bathroom exhaust fans for 20 years? He was dead-set against installing a Panasonic. But when I bought it, and he installed it, he said wow, much better than the Broan.

For that reason, I buy everything myself, and have the contractors just install. I don't want the contractor assuming what I'd like for a faucet, appliance, fixture, whatever, or just buying what he's been buying for 20 years. Yes, it's more trouble for me to make the purchase, but then I have control over what I am getting.

LOL!!! That cracked me up!!! Ain't it the truth!!!

And I highly recommend that every homeowner buys their own product selections if they are an informed consumer & want to do it. And if you get any push-back on that, beware of the markup rip-off contractors.

~Jeana

anenemity: you're not being unreasonable. Pregnancy hormones are not responsible for your expectation of industry standards.

Jeana -- how do the rest of us *find* craftsmen like you????

Thanks aliris. My hubby has NEVER advertised in all of his 30 yrs. Virtually EVERY job has been word-of-mouth referrals. And he's booked months in advance. His dad was a contractor too, so he learned well in the PRIDE category. His detail is sometimes obsessive.

It took ME many years to find him!!! LOL!!! We've been together 5 yrs. I always said that I should be with a contractor - it just took me all these years to find one that is sober & had the work ethic & talent that I required of my dream man!!! It's been a great partnership, personally & professionally. I'm semi-retired & just consult with his clients & a few of my own.

ANYWAY...the closest I've ever seen to hubby's quality is the Amish. (I thought about becoming Amish many years ago, but realized I couldn't live without my hair dryer!!!)

I've often said that homeowners should stalk their neighborhoods for contractors - just go right up & introduce yourself to your neighbor & ask to check out the project. Otherwise you're blindly hiring someone out of an advertisement & have no idea of their actual project. And some of the best don't advertise cause they don't have to, especially if they're small. References are fine, but I think catching contractors "in progress" gives you another dimension of knowledge & "feel" for them.

~Jeana

which goes to show that there is no firm answer to aliris19's question, how to find. I suggest the question be transformed into: how to make use of someone's strong suit(s) and alleviate their weaknesses. The average "good" contractor is a human with foibles; so we the order-givers have to compensate for some of the aspects that they handle less than well, and make sure that none of their weaknesses scuttle the barge or impede progress. Hard to do. Hard to describe too. Instead of "easier said than done" here for once it's just as non-easy to describe as to do. Kudos to aliris for hitting the nail on the head.

LOL, davidro1 !!! So true. You are very analytical...I TRIED to answer that, but failed miserably. You did a much better job.

~Jeana

"Why is it that contractors rely on tried and true installation methods even when there might possibly be a better way? And what if the "tried and true" actually isn't even accepted anymore? "

That's what architects, designers and most importantly SPECIFICATIONS are for.

We TELL the contractors and tradesmen what product they will use - not the other way around. We sometimes will ask them in during the planning stages for their opinion on materials and methods, but at the end of the day WE decide what will be used. The specification become part of the contract and the wording is such that the products will be installed according to manuf. guidelines - not what uncle Remo from the old country taught you in the 70's.

Don't like it? Don't sign on to work with us- we don't want you around if you are not intelligent AND flexible. The construction industry is about problem solving on a daily basis - it is not a highly controlled manufacturing environment where you can do the same thing over and over again in the same manner.

Another thing to consider is no matter how old or experienced your stubborn tradesman is; the way he is currently doing things now was not accepted by his colleagues the generation before him.

Consider the tile mechanic: he now uses thinset , mastic and wonderboard /cement board without a thought. In the 50-70's he would have been considered a heretic. Walls and floors were "mudded" and wet set - PERIOD.

The electrician uses romex now, but it was that new crappy stuff opposed the "tried and true" knob and tube system at some point. LED lights are the rage now, but why would you want to use anything but the Edison bulb that's been around for centuries ???

Or, how bout your fridge ? I mean you could still have block ice delivered for your "cool box" daily, or Satellite TV - was there anything really wrong with broadcast, or TV in general? Radio was great for a looooooong time.

How about that pickup you arrived in ? The Amish still make do with horse and buggy/wagon, and some tile setters in China ride a bike to work.

- All - "Tried and True" methods, yet you choose to go with the "new" or "foreign" thing.

"And I highly recommend that every homeowner buys their own product selections if they are an informed consumer & want to do it."

And when you call the tradesmen when their is a problem with you newer-better item, expect them to laugh.

Warranty?

Call the manufacturer.

What annoyed me was during the bidding process all was lovely and an educated consumer was appreciated.
After we signed the contract, suddenly they did not want to install the floors we clearly discussed. They were unfamiliar with other materials that were also on hand and on a detailed list provided to the gc prior to the bid.
Things changed after they had our contract and our deposit. They insisted on putting on the moldings prior to my painting and the floors being redone. I argued the point some, but let it drop because I was hoping not to sour the relationship. I should have stuck to my guns. If I had known we'd be treated lousy in the end anyway, I would have saved myself countless hours of taping and/or touching up and would not have regrets now.

I also disagree about visiting a project in progress. Unless you know how a gc will finish, or not, at the end and how the costs got added onto by the end, you only have part of the story. Our gc was great at the beginning. If someone asked us nearing the end it was another story. Now, it is a completely different response because we know what they are capable of doing and how they treated us and that we never actually got to the end of the project with them. You want to know about the project after the honeymoon is over.

This thread is far more instructive than the thread I started about 'most people' being sub-par and sub-100 in IQ.

dianalo has nailed a big one.

I remember too, when 'all was lovely' and I was appreciated.
I remember when suddenly the story line changed.
I remember when the trend kept getting worse.
I remember thinking that i was screwed no matter what.
They had my money and all I had was shoddy work and other problems.
I learned soon afterwards that the problems were far more serious than imagined.
I learned I had to change a lot in my approach.
No more wishful thinking about catching up later. It all had to be ripped out and rebuilt.
Now, when things are not right, I am often able to redirect things before too late.
Most people cannot do this.
Most people won't know until too late that they are getting substandard work.

Here is a link that might be useful: Many workers in the Reno business are sub-par

Officially there are no "master" anything in the US.
Master titles are granted by guilds, like those in Europe.

Not saying that US talent is not as good though. But there is a certified process that spans decades. Just because you have been doing something for along time, means nothing to me.

I know 6o year old hacks and 20 year old truly talented guys.

Besides anyone who refers to himself or allows himself to be called "master" is an idiot. The great ones all considered themselves to be students..
My two cents.

Visiting in progress is just the first visit. At the end of the day, do they clean up & reorganize??? Are there subs involved???

Do they meld with you personally & with the homeowner, or are they privately growling at each other with insults??? Then the second visit is fore the finish work. Check the quality. Is the homeowner happy??? Is the contractor proud enough of his work to show you??? Are there any loose ends to tie up??? Did he finish on schedule???

In the end, no matter what, you may still have problems, as in the case of Annetta who used this guy for years on other projects for work & it was great. But when it came to HER home, well, problems arose.

Every project starts out like a honeymoon. Then the marriage begins. And it's a long tense marriage, & by the end, both parties want a divorce. And, as in all marriages, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

~Jeana

"Officially there are no "master" anything in the US.
Master titles are granted by guilds, like those in Europe.
Not saying that US talent is not as good though. But there is a certified process that spans decades."

cabmanct, I heartily agree. I've argued for years that the US desperately needs a guild system like that in Europe; both to lend credence to talented craftspeople and offer them organized state support and legitimation. Not everyone needs to go to college, or should. We desperately need a journeyman/ trade school/official certification system.