It's hard for me to see all of the details in your photo - where's the wall of 9" cabs?

Two trash/recycling areas does seem excessive, but I would google around a bit to find articles on kitchen prep and cleaning stations. I remember reading one where the author wished she had changed things around a bit between her island and the facing perimeter cabinets.

As for the price of the cabinets, I would ball park $25 - $30K for painted overlay cabinets, if you're using a semi-custom line (that's extrapolating from what I just spent on a smaller kitchen)

Thanks, Sophie.

The 9" cabinets flank a small section of 12" cabs - can find them in the center-left of the picture

thanks for the suggestion to google re: kitchen prep and cleaning - i'll try that. i just cannot imagine needing/wanting that much garbage

thanks for your thoughts re: cabinetry.

Ah - now I see the 9" cabs!

Is there a reason the KD isn't making those 12" deep?

I've learned that the interior shelves on wall cabinets are usually an 1" shorter in depth than the whole kitchen, so you have to ask yourself what you might store on 8" deep shelves... probably not plates, service trays, or larger bowls. 8" is even kind of shallow for cookbooks. I suppose if you have a lot of extra glassware, flower vases, etc, that might be a good place for them. Alternatively, that area could be for food storage... but I doubt that's what the KD had in mind.

Personally, I'd push for the full 12" so that the cabinets offer more value. Or I'd remove that area entirely (unless you really need the storage).

Yes, the rationale is the 12" would hang a smidge into the doorway into the dining room. it's actually like this currently and it doesn't look very nice. however, i really cannot for the life of me think of what i'd put in a bunch of 8" cabinets.

i am learning toward getting rid of them, but concerned that it may leave the space feeling oddly naked or unfinished.

I'm not sure this is solving anything, but what if the 9' deep cabinets were made to look more like a hutch, where the lower half is a full 11-12' and has a bit of counter on it, then the rest at waist height and higher is shallower? Then at least you could store some bigger things down below. (I'm thinking something like what's to the left in the linked "hutch" photo below). Or something like this: https://www.houzz.com/photos/needham-bar-traditional-home-bar-boston-phvw-vp~109768

Do you need a place to store liquor/wine? Or decorative pottery? That might work in shallow cabs.

However, with the big island as a focal point, i'm not sure I'd worry too much about it feeling unfinished.

Here is a link that might be useful: [hutch[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/classic-white-kitchen-traditional-kitchen-cleveland-phvw-vp~786642)

Trash pullouts are usually 18" wide and hold 2 bins - one for recyclables and one for trash. There are 24" recycle centers that have 3 bins, but I'm not sure how useful they really are - especially if you have "mixed" recycling (everything is mixed together).

As to having 2 - in your layout, you really only need one - to the right of the prep sink. In this location, it's accessible from the Prep Zone (island), Cooking Zone, and Cleanup Zone.

Just an FYI, the most important place for a trash pullout is in the Prep Zone and near the Cooking Zone - those are the zones that produce the most trash & recyclables and for extended periods of time.

If you don't think you need two trashes, then don't get them. I'm sure you have a very good idea of how much you produce, how often you like to empty the bins, and how many things you sort into how many bins. This is a situation where you'd know better than the KD.

The 9" deep built-ins are going to be several thousand dollars, so if you don't think you need them, don't get them. It'd be simple enough to add them in later if you end up wanting more storage. I'd just hang some art on those walls and enjoy the extra width in the walkway and all my extra thousands of dollars.

Speaking of walkways, yours don't seem to be that wide -- are they less than 4'? Given the size and number of your appliances, it seems as if you are planning a workhorse of a kitchen where a lot of activity will happen. That means a lot of people moving around. I would seriously consider widening the walkways so it is possible for people to pass each other.

I'd also suggest swapping the locations of your trash and DW on either side of the big sink. The counter between the cook top and sink is usually one of the most popular prep zones, so you'll like being able to sweep wrappers, husks, peels, tops, etc. directly into the trash underneath that counter, and if the dishwasher is in the corner, you can have it open while someone is cooking without its being in the way.

And lastly, you don't currently have any particularly long stretches of counter. Everything is broken in up into less than four foot chunks. In a big kitchen like yours, you ought to be able to have at least ONE big expanse. I think you would particularly want more counter between the stove and the big sink, so I'd suggest moving the stove and big sink farther away from each other. You could get a full four-foot counter between them if you want the sink and stove placed symmetrically, or you can get five feet between them if you don't care about symmetry. You also might move the prep sink to where the island trash is now -- that would give you six continuous feet of counter on the island.

Like this:

thank you again, Sophie. So I think staying away from any part (upper or lower) being deeper than 9" is important so that it does not intrude into the doorway. I may just get rid of the cabinets... we don't need wine/liquor storage.

thanks, buehl. so right now i've got the trash to the left of the prep sink and a single dishwasher drawer to the right.

i'm trying to remember the trash was to the left (I'm right handed)...i think it was because the KD suggested the DW drawer was not advisable across from the cook top.

think i should switch it out?

any other thoughts on this FP - things to consider reorienting? many thanks!

wow - Jillius, not sure how i missed your post - thank you!

ok, so I definitely do care about symmetry, but also care a lot about function - this is definitely a working kitchen.

to start - the prep sink...went back and forth on whether to move it down. KD is strongly suggesting leaving it inset from the edge so that there is a "landing space" if I turn out of the ovens and want to put something down that's hot. thoughts on this?

like the idea of widening the space between the stove and the sink, but that would move the sink out from directly under the window...which would look weird, right? so just move the window? perhaps easier thought than done - we have to go before a historic preservation committee for all things related to the exterior of the front and two sides of the home. and for whatever reason, they love to get fixated on all things windows. hmm...

so buehl suggested keeping the one trash by the prep sink, but you reco keeping one by the larger sink. i currently do not have an island or second prep sink, so i really can't say with certainty where i will end up standing/prepping more often. but i do know that i really don't think i need/want two trashes. would rather rededicate the space for one of them, but which one...

really appreciating all the feedback/ideas!!

Looking at your design again, a couple of other thoughts come to mind:
- You have a fair number of narrowish (18") lower cabinets as well as corner units... you might want to plan for some wider cabs that would allow deep drawers (in my opinion SO much nicer than cabinets with rollout shelves or older cabs with fixed shelves). I have two lower 18" cabs with roll out shelves that just barely fit my pots and pans, and then a 27" wide double drawer unit for glass casserole dishes and tupperware. It's so great having that stuff in a drawer)
- I think I'd agree with moving the prep sink... or I'd consider getting rid of it all together. Having an big island space where you can put out a buffet is pretty nice (this is how my mother manages large gatherings in her kitchen). Having a sink there may impede that a bit, especially if it's where the KD currently has it. If you move the sink to the corner, you could potentially get a wider base cabinet in for better storage.
- I agree with swapping the trash and DW. I know some KD's make a big deal about being right handed and having the DW to the right of the sink, but I think it's a bunch of baloney. I'm right handed and find it just as comfortable to grab from my left side (still with my right hand!). Plus, if you move the DW to the left of the sink, you'll be closer to wall cabinets were you might want to store dishes and glassware. The only downside of moving the DW toward the corner is that you may have to unload some dishes in two steps (i.e., first to the counter, then into the cabinet once the DW door is closed ).

I'm adding a 9" deep cab to the end of a cab run, facing a doorway. I'm storing water bottles, coffee carafes, booze, vitamins, vases, food processor, coffee grinders, blender ... can't remember what else is going in there but it's going to be very useful. I also have a walk-in pantry. The inside depth of my 9" deep cab with full overlay doors will be 8 3/4". I'll have 8" at the sides because these are face frame cabs but that's for just a little bit at each end and not a big deal.

That said, I don't think that wall will look unfinished without the 9" deep cabs on either side of the 12" deep built-in unit. You can always fill the wall with art instead.

How wide is the aisle between island seating and upper wall? How deep is your seating overhang?

I will have 2 trash pull-outs and I need both of them for garbage, mixed recycling, glass recycling and returnables (we get a nickel back on cans and bottles). Right now all I have is a garbage can so all the recycling and returnable items sit on my counter until we take them to the garage. I can't wait to have a place to keep them out of sight between trips to the bins in my garage.

If you don't need that much sorting, then yes, I agree that you can likely do with only 1 pull-out. That said, that may not always be the case. Buehl's right, though, trash pull-out cabs are generally 18" wide.

If you decide to ditch the extra trash pull-out, I'd get rid of the one next to the clean-up sink and move the DW to that side of the sink. That would give you a bank of 36" wide drawers between sink and cook top. Or you could make it a 30" wide bank of drawers and a 6" spice/oil pull-out. Or you could move the cook top down to the corner Susan and have 54" of cabs between sink and cook top.

Whatever you do, try to eliminate smallish cabs, especially 12" wide cabs. I have 3 12" base cabs and they are a poor use of storage space.

I agree that having more counter between sink and cook top is a good idea but I would not off-set the sink under the window. Either put the sink all the way under the window or move it elsewhere. Half measures are going to look like a near miss, IMO. Can you enlarge or move the window?

One other thought. Would you be opposed to moving the clean-up sink and DW to the island? I calculate that it's 93" wide, which is enough room for a 36" sink cab, DW and a 28" to 30" drawer base (depends on counter overhang on sides of the island and how thick a side panel you add to the DW).

The prep sink could be under the window or farther along that run towards the fridge. You'd prep along the exterior wall and the clean-up zone would be on the island.

If you leave the sinks where they are and if you think you might want to set items coming out of the ovens on the island and not on the counter next to the ovens, I would keep the prep sink where your KD placed it.

> ok, so I definitely do care about symmetry, but also care a lot about function - this is definitely a working kitchen.

Here is the same thing, except with the stove and sink symmetrical. You still get a 4' work space between the two, which is still quite roomy.

>to start - the prep sink...went back and forth on whether to move it down. KD is strongly suggesting leaving it inset from the edge so that there is a "landing space" if I turn out of the ovens and want to put something down that's hot. thoughts on this?

Would you turn around to set it down? Especially the with the walkway as narrow as it is, I'd not be standing directly in front of the oven when I take something out. I'd be standing a bit off to the side, and it'd be my instinct to set whatever I'm holding down on the counter next to the oven rather than the counter across from it.

At any rate, I was more suggesting that you'd probably want at least one larger expanse of counter. What I showed you had two. As a baker, I'd want both large expanses because counter space gets scarce once I start setting out large baking sheets and cooling racks. But you can certainly just opt for one big counter stretch if either the kitchen window couldn't be moved or if you decide you want a landing space across from the oven. I just think you'd be sorry if you didn't have any large expanses.

> I like the idea of widening the space between the stove and the sink, but that would move the sink out from directly under the window...which would look weird, right?

Yes, very weird.

> so just move the window? perhaps easier thought than done - we have to go before a historic preservation committee for all things related to the exterior of the front and two sides of the home. and for whatever reason, they love to get fixated on all things windows.

Probably couldn't hurt to ask and in the meantime look up creative solutions for making off-center windows look centered. If you can't move it, this would be a hard decision for me. Stuff that is juuust off center bothers me a lot, but the functional difference would be huge. I have something like this in my own kitchen. I picked function, but I spent extra thought and money on how to downplay the off-center thing (our sink) and amping up the other, symmetrical features. It's not perfect, but it's fine.

>so buehl suggested keeping the one trash by the prep sink, but you reco keeping one by the larger sink. i currently do not have an island or second prep sink, so i really can't say with certainty where i will end up standing/prepping more often. but i do know that i really don't think i need/want two trashes. would rather rededicate the space for one of them, but which one...

I understood buehl's comment to be recommending that you have the trash in your main prep area. That could be the island or it could be between the stove and sink if you move them apart. I wouldn't bother with trash next to the main sink if the counter between the stove and sink stays only 2' wide.

I just read lisa a's suggestion about moving the main sink and DW to the island and putting the prep sink under the little window next to the fridge. I don't usually like big sinks in islands, but I think that is brilliant. Then you get your landing space opposite the oven, nothing is off-center of a window, you get a big expanse of counter (9 feet!), and you get to look out a window when you prep.

As I recycled a milk jug in my trash pull-out this morning, I thought of your floor plan again. We're a two person household and have an 18" pull out with two bins, each 8 gallons. I find that we're filling the recycling container very quickly -- especially if there are milk or oj containers to get rid of. If you have a larger household, you might consider keeping both pull outs or, at minimum, make sure you can get some larger sized bins. Our pull-out came with a drawer above it... had we gotten a full height pull-out, we might have been able to get 10-13 gal bins (I don't know this for a fact). Just thought I'd mention it!

Sorry, I don't have time to read the rest of the thread so I'm not sure if this has been covered already, but..

1) To be honest, your aisles are rather tight so I would probably nix that cabinetry to give more space to the upper (traffic) and lower (work) aisles. I'll go over why in a bit. You can even keep the computer/TV screen on the wall without cabinetry - just have the components stored on the other side of that wall, and use an RF remote, or an IR blaster, so the remote works from the kitchen. Oh, and if you feel like the TV is just "floating" there, you can hang a shallow shelf underneath to anchor it, and put a few tchotchkes there. Voila - much less expensive, and takes up much less room.

If you decide to keep them, though, I like the idea of storing booze, pottery etc. in the shallow cabs. Alternatively, you already have a pantry, but in case you would like additional space, Cindyandmocha uses her 7" deep cabinetry (part of which is recessed into the wall studs) as a pantry. She says she likes it because things don't get lost in the back.

2) Yes, two trashes are excessive. Even if you really generate "that much" trash, wouldn't you rather get to one full container and take that outside, instead of having double that amount sitting around inside? Also, I would keep the trash close to where you plan to prep, not cleanup. I'm forever couriering trash from the island to under the cleanup sink to the trash. This will be rectified in our remodel and the trash/recycling will be in the island. I MAY add a small trash-only swingout or pullout UNDER the cleanup sink, though, for scraping dishes before they go in the DW - but I won't sacrifice another whole cabinet to it that could be drawers or whatever instead.

3) Sorry, I don't know.

4) You didn't ask this, but here are some general comments. Based on the measurements of the room, and assuming equal aisles (top/bottom, left/right) a 15" island overhang (the minimum recommended for seating), I have your left and right aisles are 38.5" and top and bottom aisles are 41.5". Just so you know, NKBA guideline minimum recommendations are 44" to walk past a seated diner (top aisle), and 42" work aisle for a one-cook kitchen or 48" for a two cook kitchen.

Now, people have less and like it, but you have a lot going on in that kitchen space. That's why I recommend nixing the 9" cabs. Also, I would recommend shrinking the island length by 3-6" and giving that space to the aisle in front of the fridge. Otherwise, it could be hard to pass behind someone standing at the fridge with the doors open.

Secondly, it looks like you have a window on the left and are removing it. If that is the case, I would swap the range and cleanup sink/DW locations, and keep that left window instead. This way the cleanup sink and DW are not blocking the path from fridge to range.

Our pull-out came with a drawer above it... had we gotten a full height pull-out, we might have been able to get 10-13 gal bins

I have a drawer above my 18" pull-out and have two 13-gallon bins. It still fills up quickly, but like Jillius said, I'd rather empty it when its full than just fill up another one.

Probably already addressed, but why is the main sink about 5" off center with that window? That would bug the heck out of me!

Also, the 9" deep storage cabinets...everyone always says they NEED storage, but I would leave that wall bare and have artwork. Or if you like vintage kitchens (like me) I'd have bead board with a big trim piece (about 2/3 of the way up wall) and pictures above. Also great place to hang aprons and easy to clean.

Too many kitchens have all cabinet walls...or few walls at all. I miss the charm of the older kitchens, which often had large pantries and more decorative details :)