"...I wanted to have prep counterspace and island seating at which I could see the TV..."

It sounds like you're saying that want to prep in the island...but you have no water source there. What will most likely happen is that you will end up prepping in the corner b/w the range and sink, not at the island.

If you do have your Prep Zone in that corner, then LaxSuperMom is right, the trash pullout should stay where it is b/c it will be in the Prep Zone, right where it needs to be.

If you want to prep on your island, I suggest adding a prep sink to make it easier (and moving the trash pullout to the island).

I find the L-shaped island bizarre, especially if you want to prep on it. You basically took the area between sink and range where you would normally prep, and cut it out.

Where are you going to store prep tools--graters, peelers, mashers, knives, reamers, etc.? There are no drawers in the prep area.

remodelfla,
I put in 3' 9" of space between the table and island. There's 2' 6" between the table and dining room wall. Someone pointed out to me at one time that since I don't use my dining table very much, I can just push it against the wall most of the time, or just use a smaller table. I feel that if I have enough people to use both the island and table at the same time, then I would have had space issues anyway, does that sound ok?

buehl,
Yes, I do want to prep at the island. Lack of pantry and large appliance storage space has prevented putting in an island sink. I could put the microwave above the range and use the current microwave cabinet as an island sink, but I really want to keep the standalone range hood. After looking at hundreds of kitchen pictures, I felt that a kitchen jumps to a more high-end feel when the range has a dedicated hood instead of a microwave.

If the existing corner is enough typical prep space, I may just keep the current design. If I feel like watching tv while I prep, I'll just deal with the annoyance of walking back and forth to the sink/trash as the price I pay for choosing to watch tv.

laxsupermom,
Good catch on the space in front of the fridge, I hadn't thought too much about it. I'm planning for a 3' wide french door fridge. In the worst case, though, I would have a single door.

I measured it out in my kitchen and with 3' of space, I felt that even a single door fridge would be fine for everyday use.

As for moving it in and out, yes, that could be an issue. Without handles, the deepest fridge I've seen is 33 3/4". I have just over 39", minus how much the counter overhangs the island. It would be tight, but I think it's still doable. I don't think moving the fridge occurs very often, right?

Justin

marcolo,
The cabinets on each side of the range have a drawer. So, the typical prep area only has a single drawer immediately accessible. I suppose I could switch the 3-drawer base to between the corner and range....

Justin

I missed the first go-rounds of your plans so perhaps someone already made a similar suggestion for your island and you rejected it but here goes anyway.

If I understand you correctly, your goal is to prep facing the FR and have a seat facing the FR. That means in your current plan, you're prepping in 30" of space. Actually 28.5" because of counter overhang. Why not give yourself more space to prep with a rectangular island, long side parallel to the sink counter, like this:

{{gwi:1955185}}

The green shows the counter overhang. The light gray shows how far open appliance doors would extend into the aisle (I had to guess a bit on range and freezer drawer, based on my appliances so these could be off a bit).

This uses up the otherwise "dead" space of the L island, giving you longer stretches of counter on two sides. Plus room for a prep sink. Plus room to move the trash pull-out to the island. Plus extra storage - a 24" deep, 33" wide cabinet under the overhang (use this for seldom-used items). Plus a corner cabinet that you can use as bookshelves or for more storage. Plus another seat at the island. Plus you eliminate a corner cabinet, which is never the most efficient type of storage (I'm still not convinced you gain much if any extra storage capacity). Plus the opportunity to enlarge the aisles to 42" (NKBA recommended aisle width for 1-cook kitchen) and more clearance around the fridge. The tightest point is 39" but that's at only one spot and it increases from there. It might actually be an inch or three more than this - I had a hard time reading the faint grid lines, plus I guessed a bit on the size of the corner cabinet. But you do get more room to move the fridge into its space. Even if you don't need to move it often, you'll be glad that you have more room to maneuver (reduces the chance of door dings, chipped counters and nicked cabinetry).

The downside with this plan is that, as Buehl pointed out with your current plan, there is still a lack of storage for items used while prepping at the island. You could do without the prep sink and leave your trash pull-out to the left of the sink and gain storage for prep items. Or you could move the MW shelf to the left of the range to gain room for prep item storage at the island. I'd also move the range 3" towards the fridge so that you get a 18" wide cab to the right of the range.

It is a longish reach to clean the center part of the island but I can reach all the way across my 39" wide island and I'm only 5'3.5". Unless you're shorter than me or have really short arms, you should be able to reach across to clean the island from all sides.

btw, the MW shelf is 33" in this plan, not 30" because that's the amount of room I had left.

If you want an even longer stretch of counter for prep, you could swap the prep sink and the trash pull-out locations. That would give you 57" of counter, not including the 15" of overhang.

One last thing. NKBA recommends 44" of clearance for someone to pass behind seated diners on one side. I believe the rec goes up to 54" for passing between diners seated on both sides. You do have tight clearances if people are seated at the island and at the table. But you already know that. Just invite only your skinny friends over. ;-)

I didn't catch that you wanted to prep on the island. If that's the case than I like lisa a's plan better with the squared off island.

Here's another version of the squared off island.

I like both Lisa and laxsupermom's islands better. I agree with your statement that the L shaped island feels contrived and I think both of the alternates would have significantly better flow. I would swap the trash and sink in lisa's design to both bring the trash closer to the main sink to aid in clean up and to give you a longer prep counter.
In a separate note, I would consider bringing the cabinet on the far right side all the way to the counter as an appliance garage instead of just 6" lower. It's my biggest regret in my own kitchen that I don't have one. I think about it every time I have to pull that heavy food processor out of my pantry!

I really like Lisa_a's island design, or laxsupermom. The L in your design above seems awkward to me and I don't like the bottleneck that woud be inevitable with your fridge placement. Lisa_a and laxsupermom's islands remove that hinderance and also gives you one more seat.

I like Lisa's and Lax's designs too. For me, I'd consider putting the prep sink by the fridge end of the island (e.g. a corner sink if Lisa's design), and the trash on the other end opening toward the big sink. That way you could access the trash easily for prep or clean up. Then in middle section of the island you can have drawers for all your prep stuff... measuring cups, bowls, knives, etc. If you don't have water in your fridge, someone sitting at the island could grab ice from the freezer and fill the cup at the prep sink, without walking through any work zone.

I think Lisa and Lax did a great job making the layout more functional.

Thanks, all, for the compliments!

Swapping sink and trash and turning trash cab to open towards the clean-up sink can be done more easily in laxsupermom's plan than in mine. My plan is 6" shy to do that with no way to gain those inches without crowding the fridge. laxsupermom's plan is adaptable, however.

{{gwi:1955187}}

This gives you lots of room to prep on both sides of the island, 4 seats AND storage in the island. I moved the MW to the left of the range but it could stay where it was initially, across from the DW. If you generally use it during prep or to heat up items taken from the fridge, keeping it close to fridge and range makes the most sense to me.

If you want to reduce the island's length a few inches - have a bit more cushion between it and flooring boundary - reduce the cab to the right of the prep sink and reduce the bookshelf by the same amount so that you retain enough room for seats at the island.

You'll need to draw this up to scale to check dimensions. The graph lines got pretty hazy but I did my best to estimate measurements.

I missed the note about the upper cabinet to the right of the sink extending lower by 6". I agree that it should be brought down to the counter - or left even with the rest of the cabs. 6" lower will look odd - like an error, not something intentional.

I wonder if eliminating the corner Susan and going with a 27" wide bank of drawers on each side of the corner (allowed for 3" of filler, you might only need 2") will give you as much usable storage as 2-18" cabinets and a Susan. It will depend on what you're trying to store in these cabs. If you have large items, you'll end up having lots of empty space around items in drawers in 18" wide cabs. Have you tallied your items and figured out where you'll store them? Do this to make sure you've got adequate storage in the right places. Remember that drawers are never as wide as the cabinet box. Interior width - usable space - will depend on cabinet construction: face frame vs frame-less, side slides vs undermount slides. The same is true for pull-outs.

Wow, this is really incredible feedback! I can't absorb it much till this evening, but lisa and laxsupermom have some good ideas. My only concern is that the seating on the living room side of the island will bump up against the couch and leave no space for passing. I can expand my visio drawing and update the sketchup pic to show what I mean.

Justin

Corner Susan:
I want to keep the lazy susan to handle storage for oils, sauces, etc type pantry items. I don't like blind corners. I was planning on using the 18 regular base cabinet to store my mixer and attachments. I measured the mixer and I think it was too tall to fit in an 18" appliance garage. If I end up with the trash cans in the island, I'll convert the other 18" base next to the lazy susan into a 3-drawer.

Microwave Cabinet:
I want to keep this in the island and keep the normal 33" base cab next to the range. I'm planning to use the 33" base cab for pots and pans storage. Next to the range seems like the optimum placement for it.

Taller Wall Cab:
I was trying to solve two issues with this. I want to use that cab and the base below it for pantry storage. 6" of extra height would be nice. Keeping the space below it empty would provide an area for phones, keys, or stuff being carried in thru the outside doors next to the cabinets.
So, why not leave it 6" lower and add a 12" tall cabinet for office type storage beneath it? Because, I want to avoid having a wall cabinet rest on the countertop. I'm going to install the cabinets myself and don't know how to get that 12" wall cabinet in the exact right height spot without already having the countertop installed. How do pros handle this?

Justin

Lisa- I really like your last plan, but I would change the bookcases to 24" and have more leg room, with those two stools. Also, I think I'd make the island drawers smaller (like Laxsupermom) and turn the 18" trash, so it's easier to reach from the prep sink. This would move the prep sink slightly to the left, but still leave room on each side...and room to put the microwave back in the island (opposite the fridge). Nice plan! :)

That's kind of an odd place to put pantry items. Have you considered doing a 12" or 18" wide, 30" deep pantry pull-out next to the fridge instead? loves2cook4six has such a set-up and wrote that "it packs a wallop when it comes to what it holds and it's all accessible." (See her photo, 6th post into the thread linked below).

To make room for a 12" wide pantry cab, shrink the 33" cab to 30", shrink the 15" wide cabinet to a 6" wide pull-out (oils, spices perhaps). Store the mixer and accessories in the island. Or keep your 33" wide base and add a 3" filler between range and Susan if your pots and pans won't fit in drawers in a 30" wide base cab.

To make room for a 18" wide pantry cab, shrink the 33" base cab to 30", eliminate the 15" cab between Susan and range and move the range down to the Susan.

This move would put all food storage into one section of your kitchen, making it more efficient. It also eliminates the need for your make-shift solution of a slightly longer upper cab to the right of your sink, freeing up that prime real estate next to DW and near table for storage of dishes, glasses, and silverware. Adding a pantry cab also may allow you to move your oils, sauces, etc, out of the Susan, freeing up that space for other items.

I have to ask ... if you were planning to store pantry goods in the upper and lower cabs to the right of the DW, where were you planning to store dishes, glasses and silverware? That one lone 24" wide cabinet above the DW would not do it.

Regarding the space between island and couch, it's hard to tell how much room you have. If you have 44", you're good. Actually, you could likely get by with a inch or three less than that (we have 41" for our aisle between island - no seating - and table and it works for us). If you have less than that and want to increase the aisle, then shrink the island a bit. Go with a 20" wide cab next to the prep sink and a 24" wide bookcase. That would also allow you full access to the cabinet under the overhang, which would be handy.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pantry/cabinet organization hardware recs?

I didn't see your comments until now, LL.

The drawing is deceptive. A 36" bookcase leaves 48" of counter, enough for two stools. Not that it couldn't be shrunk to 24", leaving 60" of space for stools. However, the OP said storage is lacking so I opted for storage over additional knee room. (ignore the "64" on the plan, that's from my original plan that laxsupermom adapted, doesn't apply to the latest design.)

As for turning the trash pull-out, good idea, but the OP said that he wants to move the MW back to the island, which requires a 30" cabinet so the trash cab has to stay facing the way it does to allow room for it. Yes, it's not as convenient facing the clean-up sink but this is a small kitchen, there have to be compromises.

Not sure what you mean by "make the island drawers smaller (like Laxsupermom)."

Basically, change the island to what Laxsupermom had, but swap the prep sink and trash, so the trash is near both sinks. I'd still make the shelves 24", since many people will kick the shelves, if there's not plenty of room for stools. IMHO, 5' is better than 4' and allows you to get bigger stools, if necessary...and gives you more room on the corner, where the stools meet. I have long legs, so I probably think about this, more than most people :)

Which plan are you looking at? The one I posted on Thu, Sep 8, 11 at 2:26 or the one I posted on Thu, Sep 8, 11 at 12:48? The former has the sink on the corner, the latter has the trash at the corner - and has the 12" D, 36" W bookcases in the island. Your suggestion to swap the trash and sink sound like you're looking at the 1st plan but your suggestion to reduce the bookcase sounds like you're talking about the 2nd plan. Or are you referring to laxsupermom's plan posted on Thu, Sep 8, 11 at 8:50? She has the prep sink at the corner with the MW shelf to the right of the trash cab. There may not be enough room to leave the MW shelf here. Justin wrote that he's concerned about having enough room between island and couch. If the island has to shrink then there may not be enough room to leave the MW shelf there and it will need to go on the side facing the clean-up sink. Which means the trash pull-out has to stay facing the range.

And yes, more leg room is good but Justin has said that the kitchen cabs provide the ONLY storage he has - no pantry closet, no utility closet. This kitchen has to work really hard. Increasing the overhang to 18" might be the better choice over reducing bookcase width. That would help long legs - if that's an issue for Justin and guest - more than extra side width, right?

Lisa- I'm looking at Laxsupermom's plan (which is a variation of your first plan) and saying that IMHO, I think it would be better to switch the prep sink and trash on that plan. That would leave the 33" cabinet, with microwave drawer, across from the fridge. I thought that was a great idea, but did not notice Justin saying the island might be too big.

I would still make the bookcase 24" wide, which would have it end at the same point as the back of the drawers, making it much easier to access the rarely used item area...which now has a blind corner. Also, how much storage will be on the shelves? I was thinking cookbooks for the most part, but maybe you're envisioning something else?

Just some suggestions...as you say, it's up to Justin to decide :)

I expanded my drawing to show the spacing around the room. FYI, each line in the grid is 3". I did this in visio and the scale should be correct. In this layout, the spacing between the island and sofa might be ok, but looks tight. Ditto for the island to dining table spacing.
{{gwi:1955188}}From Shared

Justin

lisa,
I really would like a true pantry. I even had a 3' wide pantry cab in my original layout. I cut it due to that one cabinet being 1/6 of my total kitchen price and not going well in any area of the layout. I did write out where I would store everything at one point and I thought I was ok.

You're making me wonder if I should move the fridge over, frame up a wall, and put in a dedicated pantry closet where the fridge currently is. Continuing on, I would need to move the range further right, wouldn't I?
The only PITA about that is that I was able to use leftover renovation money last year for some electricians to wire up the future kitchen in advance. The range recptacle is already in (you can see it behind the range in the above drawing). I can't move the range even 1" right without having to get in the wall and move the line around.

Doing that might look pretty nice. I'll play around with it and post something when I get home.

Justin

You are definitely too tight between island and sofa but that's fairly easily remedied. Between island and table, tight-ish but doable. You do have a crowded table area, though. Your table is really too long for your space. Do you need that much table? Is this the only dining area in your home? If so, I'm assuming you want to keep a separate table and not have only island dining. But would you give up some dining space to gain pantry space?

I have an idea for you, Justin, but I don't have time to draw it up until later. I'll post it later.

With space so tight and a table right there, do you really need island seating?

How about something like this. It's a peninsula not an island, but you get a large pantry. 24" drawers flanking the cooktop should give you plenty of pots & pans space. That wall has a nice symmetry to it, too. A 24" drawer stack next to the dishwasher should be plenty of dish storage space. You don't need a prep sink in this one because the sink would do double duty with prep on the right side and cleanup on the left.

The overhang is small, so really only good for perching, but the table is right there for anyone who wants to sit.

Oh, I forgot to mention that I made that whole range wall 30" deep.

Nice plan, laxsupermom! Especially good suggestion to make the cabs on the range wall 30" deep.

Here's my idea:

{{gwi:1955190}}

I eliminated the island seating and made the table a part of the island. Yes, you lose the island seating but you should still be able to view the TV from the chairs at the table. Your space is really too small to have table, chairs and island seating. Something had to go to make it work, IMO, especially when that compromise gains so much.

What you get with this plan is a large island to prep at and a wall of storage - 65 sq ft of it! - on the far wall where you used to have your dining chairs squished up. You also gain ample aisles through your space. Since there are stairs, hallway, and doors to the exterior off each side of this space, I thought it would be handy to have these areas kept clear for traffic flow.

There is an 18" void between the two 24" cabinets next to the bench. If you can get 30" deep cabinets instead, then you reduce the void to 6". You can also go for 30" deep cabinets on the range wall, too, as laxsupermom suggested. That will reduce the 18" cab to the left of the sink to 12" but the extra storage and counter space will be worth it.

At 24" deep, the bench is intended to have a padded back and seat. Here's a photo from houzz.com to show you what the bench against the island would be like:

[

[contemporary kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103)

I wasn't picturing your kitchen with the back of the bench higher than the counter - I drew it up as if the counter would overlap the back of the cushioned back - but having the back extend a little higher looks good and might help keep prep mess on the island instead of falling onto the bench seat. If you choose to have the back of the bench slightly higher than the island, eliminating the counter overhang, then the island's width will be 49-1/2", still plenty generous and more counter than your L-shaped island plan offered.

As an added bonus, you can add storage to the bench ala "morgue" or "coffin" drawers. Check out the link to photos of how this is constructed. You can do one long drawer but given your narrow space, 2 drawers, back to back, 30" deep, would be better.

The grid lines got a bit hazy so my measurements could be a smidge off in places, just fair warning.

Here is a link that might be useful: DIY Banquette with Coffin Drawer - Pics

Meant to add that if you get a table with one 18" leaf, then you can extend the table to seat 9 (will need 3 more chairs). It will be a bit tight around the couch and coming in from the hallway but not nearly as tight as seating 9 at the island and table and chairs as initially planned.

Wow, you guys made some radical departures from what's in my mind! I'm sorry, but it's going to take a day or two to soak in.

laxsupermom, your peninsula is a good idea, but I don't like that it blocks the flow from the outside to the kitchen. I've also got a personal bias against galley kitchens. I've just never loved them....

The combined island and table is a novel idea. It does look like the optimum area usage. My budget rules out a wall of pantry cabinets though. I'll have to look at framing that area and making a wall of closet pantry space.

Also, I'm really sorry, but I think I left out a critical piece of information. I don't have a large budget for this kitchen (Since I'd already started drawing it out, I finished a layout with a framed pantry closet. I dropped the prep sink for now.
{{gwi:1955192}}From Shared
{{gwi:1955193}}From Shared
{{gwi:1955194}}From Shared
{{gwi:1955195}}From Shared

Justin

So, the pantry closet...I'm not sure it really helps your flow. The fridge is now opening into the island and you have very little prep space, between the fridge and range. Have you thought about putting a pantry cabinet on the other end of the L-shape...between the sink and table? Maybe include a little display area at the top, with food storage below?

As for the TV area...would you consider putting the sofa against the window wall (where company can see you, while you're cooking) and put the TV on the other side of the fireplace? It would give you more room for stools...in fact, you might be able to do a longer, skinnier island, so there's more room for the dining table...but you would not be bumping into the sofa. Just a thought :)

Love lisa a's new plan! I actually have a few island/bench pics sitting in my kitchen inspiration file, but don't have that one. The combined island/bench/table would solve so many issues & give the OP a huge pantry/storage area.

Here are a few more pics of the island/bench/table idea:

A sleek European look

An L shaped island banquette. I think this was from a cabinetry ad.

A couple of sofas snugged up like benches.

I forgot to add that I totally get where you're coming from with the limited budget. What makes lisa a's plan so great from a budget aspect is that you can easily break it up into stages.

Get the main cabinetry now, worry about the matching pantry cabs somewhere down the line. Use a craigslist piece of furniture as a pantry cab in the meantime. I see entertainment center type hutches and armoires for under $50 and sometimes free all the time. Hit it with some high gloss spray paint and it will hold you over.

When we reno-ed our kitchen, one of the first casualties of our miniscule budget was our planned wine & liquor cabinetry. The custom depth of the piece, priced it out of our budget. We ended up building one ourselves to fit the space. It was designed to use a piece of soapstone leftover from our main counters. If we hadn't had the DIY skills, I would have definitely been looking at Craigslist furniture options as a stop-gap measure for the space until we could afford the dream cabinetry. As it turns out, we love our DIY hutch and won't be replacing it.

Thanks, laxsupermom, for the compliment! Love the pics you posted (cute kitty cut-out in your cabinet).

Heh, that's why we're here, Justin, to throw you design curves. ;-) Seriously, though, please consider this new direction. It really makes your space feel more open so that it lives larger than it is and it gives you the storage you need.

The pantry closet you designed gives you storage but adding it to that wall cheats you of work space around your range. And, frankly, it looks like you're trying to cram too much kitchen into too small a space. Which you are. That's not going to help you achieve the high end look you're going for.

As laxsupermom posted, my plan can be broken down into manageable, budget-friendly phases and parts of it can be done on the cheap. The pantry cabinet does not have to match the kitchen cabinetry. It can be a stand-alone piece, either a Goodwill or Craig's List find or even an unfinished piece that you stain or paint yourself. Unless you're skilled at doing drywall taping, mudding and texture, you'll incur costs to build a closet and it might not cost more - might actually cost less - to find a cabinet for this space instead. Ditto for the banquette bench. It doesn't have to be a high-end upholstered piece. A 60" bench - a fairly standard length - would work in that space just as well, which makes finding a used one easier. And if not, Pottery Barn has several styles of 60" long benches for $300 to $400 dollars with seat cushions for $79.

As for doing your kitchen for There are ways to stretch your remodeling dollars. Go with a simple ceramic tile for the backsplash with a few pricey accent tiles mixed it - high end look without the high end price. If you're doing stone counters, go with a stone that is more readily available and thus less expensive. Whatever you do, don't put looks so high above function that you waste your money on a pretty kitchen that doesn't work - how frustrating that would be for you - and turns off buyers when it's time to sell.

After some thought, I don't think the bench/island combo is right for my house. It's very informal and I have no other place for a traditional dining room. It would look very nice though if I had a separate room that I could use with a traditional dining table.

I really do like the idea of making the one wall pantry space. Framing and hanging drywall is easy for me so that's what I've drawn up.

I'm going to back off on having seats at the island capable of seeing my TV, it's a low priority for me. I'm also going to say that I don't mind spacing difficulty between island seating and dining table seating. I don't expect both to be used at the same time. Additionally, an expandable dining table with leaves would let me keep the table sized like a breakfast table unless I needed it to be larger. {{gwi:1955200}}From Shared

This layout has the nice feature of a 42" bar height overhang. I used two 42" tall wall cabinets w/o doors as the support for the bar height counter area.
{{gwi:1955201}}From Shared

Justin

Generally, I wouldn't use a 42" wall cabinet. You need to lift it up off the floor at least a little with a plinth (keeps the doors from scraping the floors). The counter is 1.25-1.5" thick - it would easily stack up to being 48" or so tall.

I'd want the bottoms of the cabinets to align (normally raised 4.5" with the toe kick). Adding the counter of ~1.5" to the rise means the wall cabinet needs to be 6" shorter than the final height. Nobody "sees" the rise because it's normally covered with extra of the same thing the cabinets are covered with.

Even if you do "no toe kick", they'll still be raised on the bottom (compared to a wall cabinet).

Got a few other things you might want to consider. The "outsides" of the cabinets forming the island on the range and table sides. You might want skins or a panel to cover both cabinets instead of looking at that d@#$m seam. Panels are nicer to look at, but they are dimensional.

It would probably cost less to have one 36" drawer unit in the island instead of 2 18" drawer cabinets. The combined unit usually gives you more storage in two ways. There is some room taken up by cabinet sides, frames and clearances - so depending on how your specific cabinets are constructed, you get to use between 1.5" up to 4.5" additional width in every drawer instead of having it be cabinet sides.

The second way it can give space is by fitting different sizes of things. In an 18" drawer, if you have a nominal 10" pot, with handles, you can only fit one in an 18" wide drawer and you have maybe 2-4" left over in width beside it. Same thing with any large item like mixing bowls, food processor, etc. So two side by side drawers can hold a maximum of two items like that. A single large drawer can likely hold 3.

Think about (or ask electrician) electricity on the island now. Unless you live in an area where the building codes are used for doorstops, you'll be required to have outlets.

Personally, I'd take off the seating at the island, make it all one level surface, 4.25' x 8' with base cabinets on both sides. I might do an banquette on the "stair" side with maybe a circular table as a trade for cutting the end seat at the top of the stairs. Having to negotiate the chair forest at the top of a staircase is making me queasy.

Bmore,
Yes, I'm aware of electricity concerns. I'm going to put a receptacle and pendant light switch in the island wall. As for covering seams, so far all the cabinetry companies I've dealt with have put veneers across them. Wainscotting and cabinet doors both look nice.

I looked at some banquette pictures and I still feel it's too informal to be my only dining area. I'm sorry guys, I know that it's a really nifty solution to tight spaces.

For a 4'x8' island, which layout are you referring to?

Justin

Justin- I really like your last plan. Much better flow and no chairs hitting stools. During parties (trust me) all your seating gets used, so I like the stools on the other side of the island, away from the dining. Also, nice view out the window :)

While a prep sink is nice, your kitchen is so well planned, I don't think you really need one. It all depends on how you cook, but since you have an L-shape plan, with all the appliances near each other, a second sink is not really necessary.

I also like the shelves, if all the logistics work out. The only thing I might change is to put the trash on the left of your sink, so it's handy to the sink and the range. No dripping across the floor, from the sink to the trash, that way.

I quite understand if the bench against the island idea isn't your cup of tea. But to be blunt, the kitchen table area would not be mistaken for a formal dining room. It's too small and there is no clear definition of space between kitchen, living and dining areas. I look at it and see an eat-in kitchen. But your desire to have a table space separate from the kitchen work area is perfectly understandable.

That said, I think that you are trying to put too large a table in the space. Even when only 4 are seated at the table, chairs and tables take up a large portion of aisle room in major traffic areas in your home. Have you considered a round table? It would make the space feel more generous, IMO, and would make moving through the space easier.

I agree with bmore that the use of the 42" high upper cabinets at the end for the raised bar area is problematic. I also think that, given the small amount of counter that you have, a one-level counter is best. You can still visit with 2 people at the counter but you can also spread out when needed.

I tweaked your plan to show you what I mean:

{{gwi:1955202}}

I put the chairs at angles (although round tables don't really have angles) to preserve the aisle space as much as possible. With a table of this size and set up this way, no one needs to be hanging out into the aisles or blocking doorways. That will occur when you extend it but it sounds like that won't happen regularly. A 42" round table can be extended to 60" and possibly larger, depending on the base (our 42" round pedestal extends to 60" max, seats 6, my dad's 48" round pedestal table extends to seat 10, the base splits to support the table top).

If you want bookshelves, then make the top left 24" drawer base into a 36" drawer base, turn the other cab to face the table and make it a 12" deep bookshelf.

The clearances I give are counter to counter or counter to table (I've already included the counter overhang). 40" between table and island is doable (that's what we have in aisle that runs front hall to back door). 30" between table and pantry closet is tight but given the size of your space, the best you might be able to manage.

Now if you can swing a CD fridge, then you could gain a few inches and that would help. You could also make the island narrower but then you can't get 2 seats at the counter. Well, you could but you'd need to turn one to the side. If you want to see that, let me know.

Justin, where are you getting the dimensions for your SD (standard depth) fridge? It looks like you have 48", counter to counter, from island to perimeter (I counted the squares). You've marked clearance between island counter and fridge as 42". I think you will actually have less than that.

I just did a little checking on specs for 3 fridges, all 36" wide, bottom freezer, FD models, 28 or 28.1 cu. ft. Here's what I found:

Samsung 33 3/4" deep, not including handles, 36 1/4" with handles.
KA - 32.875" deep, not including handles, 34.688" with handles.
GE - 32.5" deep, not including handles, 35.125" with handles.

A quick check on two side by side models showed their specs are roughly the same.

The depths do *not* include the required air clearance behind the fridge (my KA CD model requires 1" clearance, don't know about other models).

The shallowest fridge above - the GE - will sit out at least 7" deeper, without handles, than the adjacent counter (24" deep cab with 1.5" counter overhang). This does *not* including air clearance so it could sit out another inch for a total of 8" deeper, not including handles, than the counter next to it. The Samsung will sit out an additional inch than that. You've only allowed an extra 6" for your fridge. Instead of 42" aisle between fridge and island counter, your aisle will actually be 39" to 40". That's tight, especially if you get a fridge with a single door swing, not a French door or side by side version. Even if you're okay with that clearance day to day, it may not be enough to maneuver the fridge into its enclosure. Not without risking damage to counters, cabs or fridge.

Have you considered getting a CD fridge? Mine sits 29" deep, not including handles but including the required 1" air clearance behind it. A CD fridge would sit only 3.5" ahead of your adjacent counters. Yes, they do cost more and offer less space (sufficient for our family of 3, though) but given your kitchen's small size, gaining those few inches may be worth it. You could expand your island or your table (from 42" to 48") and retain the aisles as shown.

Speaking of, I created another version for you.

{{gwi:1955203}}

I reduced the island's width, moved a stool around the corner so that I could expand the aisles around the table. NKBA recs for aisles behind seated diners are 36" to squeeze past and 44" to walk past. I got very close to that with this version. And you still have a generously sized island. The blue line by the fridge shows how a CD fridge would sit, the blue numbers in () show aisle clearance. The blue lines by the table show it expanded with 2-18" leaves. Not sure if you can buy a 42" round table with 2 leaves that size but I figured I'd show the largest it could be, just in case.

Justin- I don't think I asked this already, but is that Blue Pearl granite, in your original drawings? I think with (wood?) cabinets, stainless steel appliances and a nice (glass?) backsplash, your kitchen will be very sleek and a bit formal. So, I think formal dining is possible, even with your open floor plan. So many times, the finishes dictate the feel of the space, not just the layout.

If you plan to 'formally' entertain on occasion, take the time to carefully plan your lighting in the space. Dimmers are wonderful and will allow you to emphasize the dining room and minimize the kitchen area. Check out Sarah Susanka's 'Not So Big House' for more ideas to have a more open layout, but still entertain a little more formally.

Have fun with your design and stay true to your 'vision'. Just make sure everything fits in your space...and you have enough clearance. That's the challenge, but when it works, you end up with a functional, inviting space that looks as good as it works :)

LL, I did not say that Justin's dining area could not be formal - as you wrote, that will depend on the finishes chosen - only that it could not be classified as a "formal" dining room. They don't come with a pantry closet in them and even if they have a traditional set-up of table and chairs, they are separated from the kitchen by more than an aisle.

Not that this is a big deal, though. There is less emphasis on having a formal DR in homes (although that does depend on what part of the country you live), which makes sense when you consider that most people use theirs no more than a few times a year. Why dedicate space to a room that gets such infrequent use?

Bmore/Lisa, yes the circular table is a great idea! I looked at CD fridges again and they're not so bad. I'll just eat the price difference and use one of those. It happens to make it easier on me anyway since that wall protrusion next to the fridge is currently only 26" long.

Also, good calls on dropping the prep sink and keeping the island a single height.

Lisa's last design is fantastic! I'll drop it into sketchup tomorrow to get a visual feel for it. {{gwi:1955204}}From Shared

LL, I am "hoping" to use blue pearl. But I'll go with whatever granite and backsplash go best with the cabinetry finish / paint / floor. It's going to be natural oak hardwood floor throughout all three rooms. I've got chair rail that will extend into the dining room with wall boxes beneath it in the living and dining rooms. The paint above is a lightish blue, but that can easily change. I'm torn between white cabinets w/ a cocoa-ish glaze or natural maple with the same glaze. Those are actually more difficult decisions for me to make, so I'm putting them off for awhile ;)

Justin

Yay, so glad this one works for you, Justin! Your tweaks look great.

Love blue pearl! Have you seen it in a satin finish? Even yummier, IMO, but then again, I prefer honed stones over polished ones. Not good for me since that usually adds to the cost. Oh, well.

If you want help with your finish choices, start a new thread. Just keep in mind that you'll be getting opinions ;-) so hard to say whether it will clarify your vision or muddle it. Oh, but I'll bet boxerpups will come through with photos of kitchens with the finishes you are considering (she does that ever so well) and that may help you figure out which look you prefer.

You can get different granite finishes? I'm probably not getting cabinets from Home Depot, but I've only looked at their granite so far. I'll have to expand my horizon a bit ;)

And don't get me started on lighting! I have an initial design and much thought to give to it down the line. I'll reread LL's comments on lighting when I start looking at that.

Heh, I've gone through every picture on the finished kitchens blog. Mostly I was looking for things that "felt" high-end and then working backward to determine what caused that high-end feeling. It was the starting point of my kitchen. Use the layout to get some of the feel of high-end w/o actually having a high-end kitchen... That's also when I decided I would definitely get a glaze for the cabinet finish and not use an over-range microwave, if I could make it work. I'm kinda planned out now and need a break. In a few months when I get closer to execution, I'm sure I'll be back ;) Oh, and I'll definitely share pics of progress at that point! It's pretty much a half gardenweb design now with heavy input from you guys.

Also, I'm thinking more about the wall of pantry cabinets idea. I may end up doing pantry closet for a smaller length and then have bar cabinetry for the remainder. I have a kegerator and it would be nice to hide it inside some cabinetry as well as have a place for liquor and wine...

I got some sketchups of lisa's last layout:
{{gwi:1955205}}From Shared
{{gwi:1955206}}From Shared

Justin

What program is that in? I am looking for a cheap (i.e., free) program that i can use to give some images like that with different paint colors and types of closet doors to see how it would look. also, for a future kitchen layout. Aside from Justin's are there any other good free ones out there. (sorry to detract from the thread and the kitchen looks awesome

I used Visio for my layout and Google Sketchup for the 3D render.

Google, like any CAD program, has a learning curve. But it's easier than most programs, and more importantly, it's free. Also nice is that Kraftmaid has some of their cabinetry lines available as models for it. In sketchup model download, search for "kraftmaid home depot". Select any cabinet and then use the categories at the top to step back and view kraftmaid collections that are sold at home depot. I got lucky and they had the style I was looking for. You can also draw up the rest of your house and find models for various furniture. Another nice feature is the ability to switch to a "walk" view in which you can walk through your house. However, I don't know how to get real looking renders from sketchup.

The kitchen designers I've worked with have all used the 20-20 program and they can get some very nice looking renders. I don't know if the 20-20 tool can be used to build the rest of the house. If not, you couldn't use it to get the kitchen in context with the rest of the house. There's probably licensing involved for 20-20. For all I know, you might have to be a licensed kitchen designer to get access...

Looks great, Justin! Amazing how much more open your kitchen feels with a CD fridge and a round table.

As for your idea about shortening the pantry closet and adding in a bar cabinet, it would probably work but I'm not sure about how good it will look. Frankly, I think it will look a bit mish-mash, especially since the cab for the kegerator will probably need to be 24" deep, not 18" like the pantry closet, plus the bar cabinet will be off on its own, possibly looking a bit orphaned. I know you've been reluctant to do a wall of cabs but IMO that would look best. It might work if you combined the pantry closet with a stand-alone bar cab - not like the kitchen cabs - but I'm having a hard time picturing this so I can't say for sure. Draw it up in sketchup and post it if you want more feedback.

Justin- I know you're on a budget, but is there anyway you could eventually have pantry cabinets...maybe on either side of the bar area? Maybe a combination of food storage, glass/dish storage and bar accessories?

Lisa makes a good point about the kegerator. Depending on the depth needed, it could work well or might stick out too far, into your space. Sketches and dimensions would be very helpful.

Justin- I know you're on a budget, but is there anyway you could eventually have pantry cabinets...maybe on either side of the bar area? Maybe a combination of food storage, glass/dish storage and bar accessories?

Lisa makes a good point about the kegerator. Depending on the depth needed, it could work well or might stick out too far, into your space. Sketches and dimensions would be very helpful.

Sigh, it doesn't look good. I drew it up real quick and I can't make the bar/pantry cab combo work. The kegerator has to be 2' deep and there's all sorts of issues in placing the faucets. I'll still look into some second-hand or cheaper cabinets to replace the pantry closet.

Justin

It looks good.
Nice work.

Does the kegerator cab need to be 24" square? Can it be in a cab 24" deep and 18" wide? If so, then maybe setting that cabinet in facing the hallway might work. It's a bit unexpected and perhaps not ideal but I can't think of any other possibility for adding this without negatively affecting your limited aisle space. You'd lose a total of 7.5" more inches (6" of additional cab depth over pantry closet plus 1.5" counter overhang) if you had a 24" deep cabinet face the kitchen.

I looked at the aisles of the latest plan (yours and mine) and found 5 inches you can steal - 2 from the aisle between fridge and island and 3 from the aisle between table and island - but that's not enough. You can lose 2 inches from the fridge aisle without a problem - you're still in the magic 42" aisle rec - but the table aisle puts you below the rec of 44". I think I wrote that we have 40" between table and island and it's not an issue for us but it could be for you if you, your friends and family are big people. I would not steal any aisle space between table and pantry closet. 36" is squeeze behind space, less than that will make it a PITA to access the pantry closet. But this still leaves you short 2.5". You could shrink you island, lose the seat on the side and gain 1.5" (24" deep cab, 12" deep cab + 3" total overhang = 39" wide island). It all comes down to whether you're willing to compromise and what you're willing to compromise to add a place for your kegerator.

Glad to hear you're considering alternatives to the pantry closet. Good luck!

Oh, wait, does the kegerator have to be on the pantry wall? Do you have anything to the right of the fireplace? Maybe you can add a beverage center here. Handy to the fridge for ice, nearby water line, too. Maybe the sectional can shift down a few inches to make room for a cabinet here. Just a thought. The other possibility is between door and window on the LR wall. I've no idea how much room you have, I'm only going by the renderings you've posted, so perhaps neither of these ideas will work.

Lisa,
Yes, I can put my kegerator next to the fireplace, in fact, that was my original spot. And it's probably what I'll end up doing. I tried out a pantry and bar layout in place of the closet. I'm a little worried about having enough storage space, so I still need to go cabinet by cabinet and determine what will go where. Since my plan includes an open shelf, I dropped the open shelves from the island and turned that space into more seating area. Note, I'm not drawing the normal use, just the worse case use.

Hopefully this layout isn't too cluttered. Wall cabinets are in light blue and base cabinets are in dark red.
{{gwi:1955207}}From Shared

This pantry replacement serves multiple needs. Tall cabinet is my pantry. The single door base cabinet is actually a 30" wide wine wall cabinet turned vertically. Kraftmaid didn't have any wine cabinet models in sketchup, so I had to substitute. The open shelf will have a valence and is for cook books, knickknacks, etc. The glass wall cabinet is for barware. Drawer is for pens/pencils/notebooks.
{{gwi:1955208}}From Shared
{{gwi:1955209}}From Shared

Justin