I can't read the second image. Can you crop out the white space and sidebar and zoom it in? Also, I can't tell how it relates to the top one. The windows and doors on the upper one don't seem to line up with the design in the lower one.

you have a lot of doors.
re-do the first image to show better where things are.
e.g. the triple window.
drop the second image. chicagoans pointed out why it doesn't correspond.

In the meantime, I'd strongly suggest also flat dropping the idea of designing a new kitchen to fit current appliances with their planned early obsolescence, design and function-wise. Instead, set yourself to designing your very best kitchen, planning to only then see what appliances can stay and which will be traded off.

Also, if the wall between the kitchen and DR can go, we need a layout of the DR and KIT together. I have an idea that you can have a nice sized island in that eventuality, but the windows and door placement may interfere. Or, I may have my orientation incorrect. Your diagrams are difficult to read.

Thank you for sharing your ideas! Attached is (hopefully) a better diagram of our kitchen & dining room.

Rosie, you're right about the appliances. I would rather have the "best" kitchen we can get even if we have to buy new appliances.

P.S. If it helps, our house is a traditional two story brick.

If you want a less formal setup, you can keep a vague separation (without the wall) by using furniture and the kitchen cabinetry to make areas. This allows the kitchen area to enjoy the large tall triple window. Then you get to have a two-peninsula galley. One peninsula is double wide.

In the kitchen space, a lot of the floor needs to be left open for passage crossings.

I'll guess the hall+foyer door is a route to the front of the house AND that you have alternate routes also. Is there any door that could be eliminated? Maybe the family room door. You could have a small passthrough somewhere on that family room wall, instead of a door.

I'll guess the outside door is to a back yard.

Removing all the floor space needed for the passageways, you have enough space left over for a galley kitchen.

If you want a dining room as a separate room, keep the wall.

Sorry to say but at 151" wide, your kitchen is too narrow for an island running the way you're showing it. But you can do one running the other direction. Which gives me an idea.

I moved the doorway between kitchen and DR to the end. You said this wall could be moved, if necessary, and I'm only moving the doorway.

I placed the 30" oven below the 36" cook top, freeing up much needed counter space. Someone here did just this, a 30" oven below a 36" cook top with spice pull-outs on each side of the oven and it looks great. Wish I could remember whose kitchen reveal thread it was so I could point you to it.

But back to your kitchen. You get 121" of counter space with 1 very nice section of 49", which is more than your plan offers. This gives you space to spread out for baking as well as ample room for homework projects.

The fridge is at the outside edge so people can access it without getting in the cook's way. Ditto for the beverage center - it's across from the counter seating but close to fridge and water (reach across from the backside of the sink). A GE Spacemaker II MW will work here. It's the only MW that is shallow enough to fit in normal depth upper cabinetry. If you need a deeper MW, which means a deeper cab, then you'll need to steal a few inches from the kitchen aisle and 2 inches from the seating aisle.

Oops, forgot to note that the counter overhang is 15" deep.

Oh, bother, my eyes misread your appliance list yesterday. I saw "oven" not "ovens," which means my idea won't work. Sorry about that. Let me see if I can come up with something that does include all of your appliances.

The notes about the windows partly cover up the width of the DR windows so I can't tell how wide that space is. It looks to be roughly a 12' square room but it's too hard to tell for sure.

hzccpn, are you still here?

I haven't forgotten my promise to try to come up with a plan for you but honestly, I've been a bit stumped given the size of your space, the number of doors and windows, and the appliances you own.

I came up with one idea - a variation of what I created earlier - which is workable, uses your existing appliances and doesn't move doors, windows, or walls although it does require widening the doorway between kitchen and DR.

I concentrated the counter in the U portion of your kitchen, which means I was able to configure it to give you a nice stretch of about 50" of uninterrupted counter. That's enough - just - to allow 2 people to work side by side, plus there's room for another person to work on the peninsula. It's tight, no doubt, but your kitchen is small.

This lay-out funnels traffic from the back door to other rooms without crossing into the primary kitchen work zone.

There's lots of storage in the U - pots and pans in drawers under the cook top, uppers and base cabinets for dishes, glasses, silverware and prep utensils. Garbage will need to go under the sink or you can split the 39" cabinet to the left of the sink onto an 18" trash cab and a 21" bank of drawers. Oops, I may have forgotten to allow for spacers between the corner sink cab and the perimeter cabs. You may lose 2" or so. Your cabinet maker will help you figure this out.

I allowed 26" for the DW and probably should have upped this an inch to allow for cabinetry around the DW and the counter overhang.

The fridge on the perimeter is handy to cook but also to everyone else. I estimated the depth of your fridge at 36" - new fridges are behemoths - and allowed enough room for people to pass by when the doors are open as well as enough room to slide the beast into place. Even if your fridge is shallower than this, a new one may not be and given your family of 5, you will likely need a full sized fridge again. If you can recess the fridge a few inches into the wall behind it, that would help. You may even be able to extend the peninsula counter a bit.

The peninsula serves as landing zone for fridge items while the the narrow-ish counter next to the cook top serves as the landing zone for oven items. I'd rather not have this be across an aisle but I couldn't come up with a decent alternative.

The cabinet between ovens and fridge is a pantry pull-out cab. 12" isn't enough for a counter and this cab gives you some buffer between oven and fridge doors.

There's ample storage in the 12" deep cabinets across the aisle from the peninsula with a beverage center and MW station (GE Spacemaker II as recommended in my earlier post) across from the seat at the counter. I tried but just couldn't fit in room for more than one stool, not without having someone sitting in the door swing area, which isn't ideal.

I reread your posts and noticed that you are open to getting new appliances if it gets you the best kitchen possible. Have you considered replacing your 36" cook top and double ovens with a 30" gas double oven range? It's a compromise from what you have but it may serve your needs, plus it would fit your kitchen much better. You could then opt for the plan I presented above, which gives you counter space, storage and 2 seats at the counter.

Are you still interested in opening up the wall between kitchen and DR? If so, I'll come up with a plan for that scenario.

WoW! Thank you for the great ideas, Lisa_a! You've given me a whole new prospective on what can be done with our kitchen.

I need to study the drawings more to take in all the different details.

Yes, I definitely interested in opening up or taking down the wall between the kitchen & DR.

Right now, everyone tends to gather in the kitchen (uncomfortably) or family room. The LR & DR are really under-used. I thought maybe taking down the wall would unite the kitchen, LR, DR into one large useful area.

Again, thank you for your help!

You're welcome!

Do you have a first floor plan you can post? Don't worry, I'm not talking major remodeling. This is a "just in case" an idea strikes me and it would be nice to know how the rooms relate to each other.

How wide are the DR windows? There is some lettering over the dimensions in your drawing. It looks like it says 9' 2" but I can't tell for sure. That would make your DR 12' 2" wide. Is that correct?

How big is your DR table? Seating for 10 is enough, right? I have an idea for a plan with the DR/kitchen wall gone but I want to make sure I leave you enough room for your furniture.

I'm working on the 1st floor layout.

Yes, our DR is 12'2" wide. I (hopefully) plan to buy a new table/chairs at some point, but our current table seats 8 with both leaves inserted. We usually do a "kids" table for overflow sitting.

Here is a rough layout of our 1st Floor.

I'm seeing something like this:

You can fit 3 seats at the island. If you want to avoid stadium seating, trade some cabinetry for more overhang at the left end of the island. That will still be only 3 seats, though.

The sink is off-center to the window. If you center the faucet on the window and use an undermount sink, this won't be noticeable.

The beverage center is not ideally placed. If you can swing it budget-wise, trade out the cooktop and ovens for a range or a range and single oven. The single oven can then go undercounter somewhere, and a counter with MW above goes next to the Fridge. That can then be your Beverage Center which is nicely out of the way, allowing the space between Range and Sink to act as an additional prep area.

I have two ideas to add to tracie.erin's suggestion. The wall between kitchen and DR is gone in both. I use your existing appliances in Plan C but I'm suggesting different appliances in Plan D. Both plans provide landing space next to fridge and ovens (not across the aisle as in Plan B, the one I posted Sat, Oct 15, 11 at 13:38 but forgot to label as Plan B, oops!).

I keep going back to variations of my first idea to keep the back door path free and clear, treating it more as a hallway than part of the kitchen.

Much of this plan is as it was in previous plans, particularly the entry wall storage and beverage center. That said, you could create a beverage center in the U or between ovens and fridge.

With the kitchen/DR wall gone, I expanded the kitchen into the DR, a little along the top wall and more along the bottom wall. It does make your dining area rather small, basically 125" x 115 1/2". It's large enough for a 42" round table - that's 4 seats (36" clearance between table and walls and LR opening - squeeze behind space - and 47" between table and peninsula - ample walk behind space). The fridge placement prevents a longer table.

Given your need for a large dining space, you could treat this as a small sitting area and transform the LR into a DR. I don't know if resale is a concern for you but if it is, shrinking the DR to MOL an eat-in kitchen area may be a negative.

The DR peninsula does *not* have seating. You don't have enough width to have table and counter seating in the same aisle.

Here's my second idea.

This plan presumes that you replace your 36" cook top and double ovens with a 30" double oven range and place it where I show the cook top (you gain a larger cab to its left).

The other option is to replace your double ovens with 2 single ovens. Install one of the single ovens below the 36" cook top and install the other one below the counter next to the fridge.

This plan preserves more of the DR. Final size is 12' 7-1/2" x 10' 5"), large enough for a 42" x 72" oblong table, which seats 6 with 36" between table and walls, 47" between table and peninsula and 43.5" between table and LR entry (walk behind clearance).

This plan is also doable with your existing appliances but you lose the counter between fridge and ovens. You'd be back with the 12" pull out cab between them, which isn't a bad option.

Both Plan C & Plan D could incorporate a corner sink instead. You swap more peninsula space for prep space between sink and cook top.

Both Plan C & Plan D can be adjusted to allow for a wider DR. A banquette would help with space issues for both plans. Some people like banquettes, some don't. They are generally viewed as informal seating.

I tried to come up with a pseudo galley plan - one long stretch of cabs and counters along the top wall and an equally long island with seating - but I kept hitting snags because your wall sections didn't jive with needs plus the window placement wasn't cooperating at all. Given your brick siding, I did not even consider a plan that would move the window.

I started with the DOs just to the left of the back door with a long stretch of counter (76") between it and the fridge. Good so far. But not so good for the island. In order to get sink, DW and cook top there with counter between sink and cook top, I needed an island as long as the perimeter counter but the fridge's depth prevented me from doing so. Even if I went with only 40" aisle between seating and wall, I couldn't get more than 35" clearance between island and fridge, which isn't enough for a 36" deep fridge (you wouldn't have room to get it in place). If I deleted seating at the island, it was doable but that doesn't suit your needs.

And the big downside of an island cook top is the cost of venting. It's much more expensive than perimeter venting. Costs would begin at $1000, easily, and go up from there.

When I tried to move the cook top to the perimeter, between ovens and fridge, centered with 20" on each side, that put it partly below an operable window, which is against code in many places. Plus, IMO, it would look ugly, half in, half out, a mistake.

Swapping out cook top and ovens for range didn't help. Even placing it right up at the edge of the window meant having only 4.5" between the cook top and fridge - bad, bad idea.

The only way that I can see to do an island plan is as tracey.erin drew it - with fridge and ovens across a 48" and 54" aisle, respectively. A possible variation to her plan is to move the clean-up sink and DW to the island and put the prep sink on the cook top wall. You could then give yourself a bit more room between cook top and end of counter and have a nice long stretch of prep area between prep sink and cook top. I'd also add 12" cabinetry next to the fridge since you said storage is a must.

Is moving the doorway to the FR absolutely off the table? Pity, because if you could move that doorway to the other side of the fridge in tracey.erin's plan, then you could add counter next to the ovens. Actually, I'd slide ovens to the corner and put counter between ovens and fridge. You could possibly even shorten perimeter and island to preserve more of your DR.

Anything else I can think of increases your costs (like recessing fridge into LR wall, don't even know if that's possible).

Here's how my plans rank from cheapest to most expensive:
Plan A
Plan B
Plan C or Plan D with DOs, 12" pull out cab & fridge on bottom wall option
Plan D

Here's perhaps a crazy idea - it's certainly the most expensive idea I've proposed - but if you can swing the changes required, it gives you a lot of kitchen *and* keeps your DR at its current size, which is a bonus for you now and at resale.

Replacing the DR windows for a 6' slider with sidelights and replacing the kitchen door with a window, redirecting traffic through the space, is what makes this plan possible. That one change means the entire kitchen square footage is very usable.

You won't need to change headers - that's a savings - but you will need to buy new doors and windows, plus repair the brick work. I calculated that the amount of brick removed from the DR wall is more than enough to fill in where the kitchen door is. I wanted to make sure you had extra since some bricks could be damaged in a salvage operation.

This uses your existing appliances, so no extra cost there, and removes the DR wall, which is a cost you stated you're willing to make. You will have increased costs for cabinetry and counters (this gives you 173" of counter, wow!). You said your budget is limited and this may be beyond your means but I thought I'd throw it out there for you to consider. As I told another poster, paper dreaming is cheap. ;-)

Oops, I made a goof in my cost progression list above. I've edited and added results, such as inches of counter and seats at counter, for each plan. I only included "working" counter sections, not counter overhang or the small section of counter next to the kitchen door in Plans A-D in the above counts. The number in () after counter inches is the largest, uninterrupted section. There are other ways to judge these plans but I thought I'd give you a start.

Plan B
Costs: widened DR entry
Results: 114" (51") of counter, 1 seat, isolated kitchen, DR same size

Plan A
Costs: new double oven range or new single oven, relocated DR entry
Results: 121" (49") of counter, 2 seats, isolated kitchen, DR same size

Plan C
Costs: DR/kitchen wall removed
Results: 160" (43.5") of counter, 2 seats, joined kitchen & DR, smaller DR space (10' 5" x 9' 7-1/2")

Plan D with fridge, 12" cab pull-out & DO cab option (existing appliances)
Costs: DR/kitchen wall removed (same costs as Plan C)
Gains: 130" (43.5") of counter, 2 seats, joined kitchen & DR, smaller DR space (10' 5" x 12' 7-1/2")

Plan D
Costs: new double oven range or 2 new single ovens, DR/kitchen wall removed
Gains: 175.5" (45.5") of counter, 2 seats, joined kitchen & DR, smaller DR space (10' 5" x 12' 7-12/").

Plan F
Costs: DR/kitchen wall removed, new DR sliding door with sidelights, new kitchen window, some brick work.
Gains: 176" (59.5") of counter, 4 seats, open lay-out, joined kitchen & DR, same size DR but open space offers flexibility.

FYI, NKBA recommends that a kitchen have at least 158" of counter to accommodate separate cook top and wall ovens. Obviously, this guideline can't always be followed in small kitchens.

I thought I had one more idea that uses existing appliances and removes DR wall. It would require island venting, which as I wrote above, is an additional cost. While it lays out nicely - sort of - and provides 129.5" of counter and 4 seats at the counter, the largest section of counter is only 27.5". Not worth the cost of island venting, IMO. But if you'd like to see it, let me know.

The kitchen is on a raised foundation and has a walk-in attic upstairs right above it, so DH doesn't *think* island venting would be too big of a task for him.(?)He's fairly handy. If it's not too much trouble, I would like to see your idea with the island.

I really like Plan F, but I'm not sure about the cost. It might not hurt to gather some cost estimates, and "dream" for a little while.

I really like the length of 12" cabinets along the outside wall in both Plan A & Plan B.

I'm going to spend some time studying all your different options.

One idea I had a while ago but dismissed was closing off the door from the hall/foyer. It would lengthen the usable wall on that side & then we might be able to recess the refrigerator.

I was concerned about only having one front entrance to the house. All the traffic would have to go through LR, DR, Kitchen, FR unless they entered through the back of the house. We would still have three "back" doors.

Do you think that is a reasonable idea or would it kill us on resale?

Also, moving the door to the FR *could* be done but it is a load bearing wall so it would involve some expense. We could easily move the entrance to the half bath from the kitchen to the hall.

Thank you!
Alisa

Plan F is my favorite, too (champagne taste, both of us ;-) ).

Here's the plan with an island cook top:

As I wrote above, the largest stretch of counter is only 27.5". I'd personally find that frustrating. Also note that I raised the seating overhang by 6" to give a bit of buffer between anyone seated there and activity on the cook top.

If your hubby can do the duct work, that will help. But island hoods and pop-up downdrafts are still expensive. Hoods are better at capturing smoke and steam than pop-ups. It's recommended that you purchase a hood 6" wider than the cook top and almost as deep for best capture. Your kitchen and island are large enough and open enough that I think the scale will be okay. There are some gorgeous hoods out there. It could be quite the focal point.

Pop-up downdrafts rise anywhere from 7" or 8" to 14". The higher they rise, the more effective they are and also the more expensive. They also tend to be noisier (more bends in the venting cause more air noise). I have one (have an island cook top in a 62" island, too small, moving to perimeter when we remodel) and it's okay but it is 17+ years old. New models work much better but even so, they still aren't as effective as hoods. Oh, the other thing with pop-ups is that they pull on gas flames, especially back burner flames. I've had mine pull the flame out when the vent was on high and the flame was on low. Another reason to get the highest rising pop-up you can, if you go this route. At least new cook tops have the auto-relight feature.

If you can move the FR doorway, here's an option for you:

{{gwi:1961879}}

This has many pluses - 173.5" of counter with a stretch of 66" next to the cook top. You could, if you wanted to, add a prep sink here. I'd put it almost at the end, closet to the fridge. You also get to retain the same size DR with the open feel and 4 seats at the island.

What you don't get is a pantry cabinet. I tried to put one along the LR wall, closest to the DR but it looked quite odd there. But if you wanted to do that, you can add a 12" deep, 36" wide cab and still keep good clearances between it and the island (I think I figured this at 40"). Yes, you could replace the 24" wide section of cab and counter between fridge and DO but then you don't have landing space within 48", as recommended by NKBA. The island is just too far from the ovens.

You could also do this plan with the sink and cook top set-up as in Plan G. I'd move the DW to the left of the sink and perhaps add a china hutch between DW and DR.

If you have a lot of traffic between FR, back door and DR, then much of this will pass through your cooking zone with these 2 plans. The only way around that situation that I can see is to move the fridge and DO, book-ending the perimeter wall with counter between them and move the cook top to the FR wall. You'd have 30" of counter on each side. It is in the path between back door and front door but perhaps a bit more protected since the hallway door is not in a direct line with the back door.

About entrances. There was a poster a few months back who proposed doing just what you suggested: closing off the kitchen entry, redirecting kitchen traffic from the front door through other rooms. I don't know if she went ahead with it or not but I can tell you that most posters here tried to talk her out of it. She had a center hall colonial, not much different than the style of your home, and most felt that it was not architecturally appropriate. I wouldn't do it but this is your home. You'll have to determine if the gains are worth it. It would be a good idea to also talk to a realtor or two to get their perspective since they'll know your local market.

You mentioned that you have three "back" doors. Where are the others? Could you close off the kitchen door and route traffic through one of these doors instead? Then you could do Plan F with a smaller bite in the budget now and down the road when finances allow, you can change out the DR windows for the sliding door with sidelights.

I can't recall if I told you about cab sizes or not but I allowed 39" for fridge cab and 33" for oven cab. Cab widths will depend on cab construction (frame-less fridge cab could be an inch narrower) and oven specs. Some 30" ovens require a 33" cab, others can go into a 30" cab. I chose to show the larger sizes so that I knew a plan would work even if you were able to go with smaller cabs for these appliances.

Can you recess a pantry cab into the closet with the AC return duct?

Yes, three back doors... the one in the kitchen, sliding glass doors in the family room, and another one from the garage which is on the other side of the family room.

I'm going to call around for quotes on closing in the kitchen back door. The modified Plan F you suggested might just be doable, especially if I don't have to buy new appliances. Please keep your fingers crossed for me.:)

I'll keep you posted.

Thank you for all of your help!!!

Alisa

The question is, 'how often do you use all those doors and for what purpose?" I think plan F is fantastic, and now that I know you have sliders to the family room, would not hesitate to close off that kitchen door. Even if you are used to traffic coming into the kitchen, that traffic just gets in the way of utilizing the kitchen the way it should be used. But we don't know how your family moves around the house, how the backyard is laid out, or any other special reasons you may want to keep that door.

We are adding on a family room behind our kitchen. I realize that it will be a little bit more of a pain to take food out to the grill or for outdoor dining now that we'll have to go through the family room to get outside. It's a compromise that I am willing to live with. But these are things that you need to think about when making this kind of decision.

Consider them crossed! And you're welcome!

I forgot to add that with Plan F, you may need to tile around the window (instead of standard molding) to a specific height for fire safety. Sort of like this:

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by other metros interior designer Shane D. Inman

Imagine the wood molding only going down to the tile section. These windows are to the counter but you can do the same even if the windows are higher than the counter

Good point, controlfreakecs. One of the KDs we consulted suggested closing off the French door in our nook and using the French door in our DR (separate from the kitchen/nook area) to get to our deck, backyard and grill. That would not work for us because this was intended as a permanent change. Any inconvenience Alisa and family may experience would be temporary, only until they can afford to replace the DR windows with a sliding door.

Alisa, I was just reminded that I forgot to give you my usual caveat about island dimensions. The depth for the island I propose does not include the addition of a decorate panel backing the cabinets. This is an extra expense so I generally don't include it but I usually let people know about it in case they opt to add a panel. If you do, the island will be 41.5" deep, not 40.5". You'll lose an inch off the aisle behind it or you can split the difference and lose a half inch off both aisles.

If you opt for bead board instead, it may be less than 1". We're planning to add bead board to our island (it's less expensive than panels and I've always liked bead board). IIRC, the cabinet rep told me it added 3/4" depth. Or was it 1/2"? Dang, can't recall for sure but I do know it was less than 1".