Plan B

Plan A, no question, if it were me. Though I'd only put 4 stools at the island for regular use (3 at back and 1 at side assuming there's an overhang there). But I would buy 6 stools altogether like you show, but just for use when entertaining a larger crowd.

Not sure why the table is thought to be tight there? I'm seeing a 13-foot wide dining room, so say your buffet is 2 feet deep that still leaves 11 feet of width in the DR doesn't it? Assuming the table is 3 feet wide, that still gives 4 feet clearance on either side of the table which is plenty for comfortable seating. Our DR is only 12 feet wide and we have a buffet on one side and a fireplace hearth bumpout and server beside it on the other, and it's plenty wide enough for seating.

Or am I missing something with respect to your dimensions?

I like plan A because you can still have the separate feel of the room being somewhat more formal-ish as a dining room if you choose, versus having it feel sort of like an eat-in kitchen area in the other plans (especially in the ones with the banquets).

My opinion only ... ymmv. Good luck whatever you decide.

Definitely Plan B. It gives you a nice work zone from fridge to sink to range, plus the seating at the island is ample enough for 4 to sit along the length. Do you plan to add a prep sink to the island? I would because it adds a second prep area - and perhaps becomes the primary prep area - to your kitchen. I really like the baking center idea between pantry and ovens, better than a desk.

One caveat: I would not curve the front of the buffet since it looks like that crowds the person sitting at the end of the table. I think you'd want at least 44" between table and buffet so that people can pass behind someone seated in the chair and quite possibly open drawers in the buffet, too, without asking that person to "get up for a minute, please."

taggie, I didn't see the previous comments but I can guess why others thought the DR was tight in Plan A.

NKBA recommends 44" width for aisles behind seating for room to walk behind diners. When it's back to back seating - as the OP proposed in Plan A - that recommendation jumps to 60", I believe. Also, a 36" wide DR is narrow (my antique table is 38" wide and I have a heckuva time finding table cloths to fit it). Most DR tables range from 42" to 48" wide, IME. To have back to back seating with a 42" wide table, a 24" deep buffet and sufficient aisles, the DR would need to be more than 14' wide.

A, but with seating for only 4. To me, 6 seats looks like a diner.

I love the window seat and I think it's very useful. Make sure it's centered on where your table will be and that it's the same height as your DR chairs so it can seat a couple people when you're using your leaves.

I would draw in your table to scale and put dotted lines to show the size with the leaves in.

Thanks everyone!
Regarding island seating at the side- that would really only be two push under stools so when we eat there as a family we wouldn't have to eat 4 across. During DR seatings those two stools wouldn't be used so I'm not too concerned about them. In other words, no back to back seating there...

Our DR table is 41" wide. In Plan A, I was more concerned if someone was eating on the right side of the table that others wouldn't be able to walk behind them to get food at the buffet. (Hence Plan B!)
What do you think? The buffet would probably be 22-24" deep but the hutches wouldn't be as deep. Maybe 18"?

lisa_a- Thanks- yes I drew the curve in but that isn't really necessary or could be modified : ) Good point!

mpagmom- Yes, we wouldn't really use seating for 6 at the island- it's more to have the ability to use 2 at the end for family dining. Yes, I'd center the window seat in the open space. Glad you said you thought the window seat was useful. Some say people don't sit in them? I drew table to scale so you could see.

PLAN A:

Plan A looks great, if no one is sitting in the chairs. During a party, it looks like it would be too tight to have room to walk between the table and the island...or get to the buffet.

Plan B looks like you'd have a little more space...the buffet looks great with the table, but what would be on the 'east' wall?

Plan D looks like a good option, if you want a banquette. I think it all depends on what you're comfortable with...and what will suite your family and entertaining needs the best. You've got some great options :)

Hey lisa_a, you are right. I just measured my table and it's 42" (and my buffet is 18"). Who knew, lol?

Re. Plan A / Plan B, I think the kitchens are identical in each plan. If so, the question is whether to carry the buffet run directly from the kitchen or to separate it out to the side. I like it separated since it gives the feel of a more formally separated dining room. But that's totally personal preference.

However, 2LittleFishes, I'm now reading your question above re. wanting people to walk behind the right of the table and get food from the buffet. Okay I totally missed that before ... I was thinking the buffet was more for dishes and glass storage and display items, not for actual serving.

So yes, if you'll be using the buffet as an active serving station with people walking by it while others are seating themselves then, no, Plan A is not going to work. You'd need at minimum 24" for buffet, probably a 54" aisle(?), 42" table, they say at minimum a 48" aisle to separate dining from eating ... that's 14 feet right there and you'd really probably want 54" to 60" between the kitchen island and DR table to make the DR look more symmetrical given how far the DR table needs to be pulled out from the buffet.

taggie- there is 14' from island end (no seating) to the DR wall. Didn't you write you'd need 14'? Or is that the minimum and you'd suggest more?

lavender- in plan B- I wouldn't put much on 'east' wall so we don't run into the problem as Plan A. Definitely a window and some wall decor. I don't think much else would work?

I didn't realize you only plan to use the 2 stools at the end of the island during family meals, not when the table is in use, too. That eliminates my concern about tight clearances for Plan A. However, one plus about the buffet placement in Plan B is that it's closer to the kitchen so you will take fewer steps between range, ovens, etc and buffet.

Can you move the window/window seat? I haven't followed your plan all along to know how large your remodeling project is so maybe this isn't possible. But if you can move it so that it is centered on the table for Plan A, then it would serve as seating when the table leaves are in. It does mean that you can't walk around that end of the table but perhaps that's not a big deal. But as your plan stands now, you'd have to scoot the table towards the buffet/cabs, shrinking your aisle there, which would make it harder for people to access your buffet while someone is seated at the table.

Is there a reason why Plan A shows a desk between ovens and pantry and Plan B shows a baking center there? One thing to keep in mind is that the counter there will serve as oven landing space (recommendations are for landing space within 48" so at 54" away, the island is too far away to serve that purpose). Perhaps your household is neater than mine but if that set-up were at my house, I'd have to clear the desk off before I could put anything from the oven down on the counter. I'd find that a nuisance.

I lean towards plan B for you. It seems that the buffet is an important part of your entertaining in which case I like that plan best. I like banquettes but not in your space.

If the buffet is not critical (e.g. you can use the island as a buffet and store dishes in the tall cabs, or even move the buffet down the wall between living and dining) then I like the idea of a window seat for people to curl up on near the kitchen (e.g. kids with books). But it seems that formal entertaining and dish storage is important to you so my vote is B!

2LittleFishes, I think 14' is the minimum for an active serving buffet and you really need more for symmetry.

Think about where the DR table would land if you had it pulled out far enough from the buffet side wall for serving. I think (depending on the size of the window seat (which I love btw!) the left side of the table would be past the window. Would you be happy with that, and the subsequent chandelier placement? Not sure I would be.

If you weren't actively using the buffet as a serving station then the table could be centered more on the window, but it's the fact that the aisle between the DR table and the buffet needs to be so wide that gives me some pause.

lisa_a-
YES the window seat can be moved and I probably WOULD move it so it would be centered in the open area. Right now it looks really "off" in the drawing.

Not much of a reason why A shows desk and B shows baking center. Ha! I keep changing my mind. Most likely no desk- at least not one with a chair. I may have a cabinet with filing drawer and other organization there. I have to think it through. Also that wall will probably get extended a foot or two like in Plan E (giving us a 14' wall in kitchen instead of 12') so we can put our secretary desk on the other side of it in the LR- passed the basement door. We already have the desk and it was a pricey one so I'm trying to still get to use it! Right now I have a kitchen counter that ends up with all my "paperwork" (kids stuff, house stuff, social stuff) on it. We don't have an office so I DO need a place for that. Maybe I can think through some type of system- even above that baking area in the cabinetry so I can keep organized.
OR, perhaps I'll use the secretary desk more for that stuff in the LR but I always find the kitchen ends up being my "home".

domino- I don't entertain formally regularly although in my other homes which were larger I DID entertain more than now b/c we don't have the space. With the reno, we will get some extra space & function. Anyway, I like the idea of putting food/platters/drinks on the buffet so people can sit and eat at the table without it being loaded with everything. Then there is no room for people plates. I love the window seat too, but I can't fit in everything can I ? LOL

***In general, I really would like the kitchen and DR to blend nicely without either being too formal or casual. I usually do have a formal DR, but am very willing to give it a slightly more casual feel so both spaces can be used regularly without having a room we don't use. In my other 2 houses there were always rooms that were barely used. However, with our first floor being only about 900 square feet (including master bedroom) I want to use it ALL : )

Here are some photos!

Here is a link that might be useful: I N S P I R A T I O N K I T C H E N

You know, the easiest thing to do, would probably be to design the kitchen around Plan B...with a window on the 'east' wall that could be high enough off the floor, to have a banquette. If you love the table and chairs of Plan B, then you have a nice view window (but high enough to not be looking at the heat pump, etc.) If you think it's too crowded with the table and chairs, then you can add a banquette or armless settee and slide the table and remaining chairs over, to give you more room.

If you start out with a built-in banquette...and don't love it...you're kind of stuck with it. Hope that helps :)

Oh, and if you do this...don't put in your chandelier, until you know exactly where the table is going to end up :)

lavender- Yes! I was thinking the same thing (about the chandelier)! I'm a "planner" so I'd love to decide how I want the layout to be beforehand especially b/c of height of window and other planning if we should add a banquette. Would be nice to know ahead of time. I really would like one actually : ) Would a banquette and a window seat be too much? Are they basically the same thing?
I'm going to draw one or two more possibilities tonight!
(I tend to be an "explore all the options" type person) THANKS!

I like plan B. I think the dining room looks lopsided and has a little bit of the bowling alley affect in Plan A. I am personally not a fan of banquettes, so that is why I didn't choose those options.

In plan A, I do think your clearances are not too bad. However with this set up I doubt you would really use the buffet as a serving space due to tightness. You would probably end up defaulting to the island as a place to set up buffet service. If the long wall of cabinetry is really what you like, I would say give up the idea of serving from there. That way you could move the table slightly toward the dining room cabinetry and make the clearance a bit better in case of back to back seating with the island.

controlfreakecs- I agree about A and I also would want to use the buffet for serving so that plan is out it seems!

*SO, I have 2 more plans. I changed the "south" kitchen wall to put the baking buffet on the end and I extended that wall a bit (which was also for desk in LR). Is a 42" pantry a good size?
I thought by making the buffet/baking on the END instead of the middle it is good access for the DR as well as kitchen.
If this removes the need for a serving buffet in the DR, I was then able to add window seat (which I really like!) back into the plan.

PLAN F has the DR table in center and shows both leaves. On a regular basis we'd just use none or one. Also considering extending refrigerator run a foot and getting a 42" refrigerator. The window/seat can be moved over a bit to the right so it all is symmetrical once we decide.

PLAN G is the same except for using a banquette. It could even be moved a bit more towards the LR if need be. This does leave a nicer walk space than F although F is with 2 leaves which wouldn't be typical.

PS--- I have a hutch that is 46" wide x 16" deep x 83" high that is the same color as my table. I figured we wouldn't be able to use it but in Plan F maybe I could being it's only 16" deep. Even on the bottom right of DR? It isn't drawn on the plans. The hutches drawn are built-ins.

My next problem is making the wood colorings work b/c my inspiration kitchen is ivory and black cabinetry and my table is cherry. However some tables in my LR are cherry and I thought if I used cherry accents/counters on the DR built ins with the black as well it would work.
"I can't think about that right now. I'll think about that tomorrow." LOL

I like the new buffet area, but I'd switch the pantry and double ovens. You need a 'landing area' by the ovens and you can't use the island, since people will be sitting there. If you switched, then the buffet is also a baking area...maybe with a heat-resistant granite countertop? :)

Normally, a banquette and window seat are very similar...but if you did a banquette with an attached back (more like a settee or your example in the corner banquette picture) with a higher window...and a bay window seat with throw pillows in the back (with the window starting just above those pillows) they would each be quite different. Of course, I love banquettes and window seats, so having both wouldn't bother me a bit! LOL

Here are a few pictures...hope they give you some ideas :)

Banquette with high windows... {{!gwi}}From Kitchen plans

Bay window seat, with lower windows... {{!gwi}}From Kitchen plans

Just another idea...could you maybe paint your chairs or table? That might blend things in more...of course, a lot of people hate to paint their furniture...so just an idea. {{!gwi}}From Kitchen plans

taggie- just read your message from yesterday & I agree totally- thanks!

lavender- Great ideas! Do you think if I switch the ovens and pantry that the ovens are to far away from the prep area? Probably not- it's just a few more feet over.

Those pics are very helpful. AND, I would definitely paint the table. I wonder if that's very costly? We could get rid of it (and get a pedestal style). It just stinks b/c it's only 3 years old and it wasn't cheap with the 8 chairs, custom cover, etc. I wonder if the cabinet people would paint it to match? Great thought. We always end up buying things and selling them for peanuts in like new condition. lol

If this is your only dining space, I'd be cautious about doing a banquette. Not everyone is a fan of them like LL is. If you plan to be in this house for a long time, then do what you want. But if you plan to move in the near future, keep in mind that not all buyers will be keen on a banquette set-up.

I like banquettes for nooks and dining areas that just aren't large enough for table and chairs but I am not keen on them in a dining room, especially if it's the only dining area in the house. This is purely from a functional perspective, not looks, btw.

How about this idea, a variation on your Plan F?

I kept your existing hutch, placing it between DR and LR, and your desk opposite it on a new wall next to the pantry. These would help define the DR from the LR. I've no idea how to figure dimensions for your space but I was hoping to create an alcove for the basement stairs. Not sure if this will work out not for you but thought I'd throw it out there.

lisa- Thank You for throwing it out there. I like to look at different ideas b/c in the end once we decide we'd like to feel confident that we explored our options!

I thought the basement part might work but right away my dh pointed out that it makes it really hard to bring large things downstairs with the curve. (We have that now and its very difficult)

In the Dining Room, would those buffets have cabinetry above for dish storage, etc? I like it b/c I was thinking tall cabinetry without the counter space but that would be nice : )

I definitely "get" what you're saying about banquettes not being for everyone. We plan to be here 10 years and if that works out maybe much longer. My husband and I do like the banquette idea especially b/c it keeps the area open from kitchen to DR and it's just a different "look" for us. We'd only use the bench side when we have a larger amount of people. That being said we're still open to not doing it if we think it won't work.

Also, couldn't a new buyer just take out the built in seat if they don't like it and turn it back to a traditional DR? I'm not asking that sarcastically but it wouldn't seem the worst of things.

OR- we could do a separate piece of furniture that's not built in too right? I think someone said Ballard has them. IF anyone sees others let me know. I know they have great fabrics that are kid friendly too : ) I wonder how long they come?

THANKS EVERYONE! I so love this : )

Also, couldn't a new buyer just take out the built in seat if they don't like it and turn it back to a traditional DR?

Yes, they could provided that you don't extend the kitchen into the DR space making it impossible to have a table and chairs set-up. Not that you plan to do that, just saying. ;-)

Totally see your hubby's point about the basement stairs. Should have thought of that because we have a similar situation with our bonus room. There's a couch in there that likely won't ever come out again since it was all we could do to get it in there! LOL

I can relate to your 'we'll be here 10 years, maybe more' situation. We bought this house, saying "15-20 years." It's been 17 1/2 years now and we've decided that we'll stay another 10-15 years.

I really like plan F and Lisa_a's plan F-1. I think that the back wall space is very much a focal point for your home as this is what you first see when you enter the kitchen and will always be in the line of sight from your LR. Of course, I am bias since I am planning a banquette / window seat in the direct line of sight too.

Having both a window seat and banquette as you show in plan G is overkill, even for me who really likes this look. Also, having cabinetry on the side wall (right) as shown in plan E is not as impressive as having cabinetry, symmetry and nice windows along the back wall(fridge wall), IMO.

That being said, I think whether you put a buffet or a banquette / window seat along the back wall, you can't go wrong.

2LittleFishies- Can you post that corner banquette from your inspiration pictures? That looked like a free standing unit, which might be a great compromise. Even though yours is only a banquette on one side...it would feel like a built in, be super comfy...and if it doesn't have any arms, it will work just like a banquette. (Just make sure it doesn't slide around.) And, if you change your mind and want to go back to a table and chairs only...you can. Best of both worlds...just have to move the chandelier :)

Also, the Ballard Benches would offer the same idea I belive. I like the Hampton, but there are a few other ones. Many different fabrics or mail your own to them.

Here is a link that might be useful: BALLARD HAMPTON BENCHES

I can't seem to find benches like above online. What are they called? I've googled dining room benches or banquette bench but they are usually backless or not upholstered.

Oh, that looks so comfy! Do you know what company makes that...or was it custom? Very nice :)

lass- I have no idea. Did you look at the Ballard ones?

2LittleFishies- Thanks for the link :)

What is off the 'east' wall again? I know you said something on the other thread about the heat pump or AC. Is it all utility, or could it be another access to the pool?

Only asking, because I found this picture and thought of you...if the 'top' doors were your window seat (overlooking the pool) maybe french/patio doors on the side wall would be nice...if you decide on the table/chairs, rather than the banuqette. {{!gwi}}From Kitchen plans

This was the from the other angle, with the living room. Thought I'd include that too, since the wood tones were kind of similar to yours. {{!gwi}}From Kitchen plans