Answer a question with a question... What do you want?

There are good, bad and personal choice elements in any plan, but there's also a desire to have or achieve some goals for some amount of family who does some amount of entertaining.

When I look at your plan, without any other information, all I can give as feedback is the "bad" and how I would change it. The bad is the ref/frzr in front of the windows. Also the general width of that aisle considering the ref and frzr doors can completely block it.

As an example of comparing it to what I would do - I would not like an oven tower or even undercounter oven located in the general area shown. I would not want a tall thing that close to a cooktop and a would not want an opening oven door between me and the ref or pantry.

So, I think I'd look at re-orienting the kitchen so the cooktop was on the outside wall - removing one of the windows, the tall stuff was on the inside wall between the pantry and the kitchen and the island workspace faced towards the family room. I'd also probably look at making the "bar" a little bigger and have an entrance from the kitchen. I use the wines in cooking but NEED the margarita maker :)

Welcome amay1361!

As BmorePanic has said, we really need more information before we can critique your proposed layout with your needs and wants in mind. I suggest you check out the "Read Me" thread, particularly the opening post and the "Layout Help" section.

So, read the opening post, take the "Sweeby Test" (linked in the opening post), and read the "Layout Help" post/section and get back to us w/your background, goals, needs, and wants.

Good luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: Read Me If You're New To GW Kitchens!

I assume those are refrigerator and freezer drawers? If so, would you walk us through your thinking - why did you choose that route, how do they meet your needs, etc.

Could you also indicate where the dining room will be? Is it through the butler's pantry?

What sort of cooking do you do? Guests/family all in the kitchen helping/watching you cook? Or quaffing drinks in the living door while you cook, then you call them to table? Or does a caterer do it?

What sort of entertaining do you do? Large sit-down dinner parties or walk-around buffets/cocktail parties? Do you plate food in the kitchen and serve each diner individually, or bring serving pieces to the dining room and plate there? Does everyone help bring food out and dishes in, or just you?

Finally, could you please include dimensions in the diagram? (Important)

There are a lot of good things about this plan. The only 'bad' are pointed out by Bmore concerning the windows and the oven location...Are the windows up high above the fridge and freezer? If they are, I could see this layout working, for the most part. I would want to stack the oven with the micro to have it at a better height and to get it away from right next to the stove. And I, personally, am not sure I'd want the cleanup sink in the center of everything the way dirty dishes get stacked around it...But that's me and it's your kitchen! :-) Best wishes! You have a great start here and it looks like a plan (what I see of it) that my family would like and would be practical.

I like the plan...the pantries are wonderful and I love the seating area in the breakfast nook :)

It looks like the fridge/freezer are set up like a big side by side, with little windows above. Do you have a vaulted ceiling?

If you take off a few inches on the right side of your island, it would give you a little more room to get by, if the fridge or freezer doors are open.

I guess more info would definitely help provide some background as to why I currently have the layout the way it is.

We're a young, growing family. I have a 1 year old son who's into everything, and we're planning on having 1 or 2 more children, so our goal is to build to maximize safety, and cooking efficiency/flow. We entertain some, but it's mostly with other families and is usually casual with people hovering around the kitchen. The dining room is attached to butler's pantry. With that in mind, the initial reasoning behind some the layout is:

no appliances below counter height- was originally going to go with a 48" range, but didn't want small hands/bodies climbing or reaching on hot oven, so went with double ovens and 48" range top. Had no idea where to put ovens, so just threw them next to range top b/c thought it might be nice to have them easily accessible to prep area and could set hot items on range. Is there a better spot??

We store a lot of frozen veggies and stuff, so the 48" side by side fridge/freezer wouldn't work. We have a 30" freezer and 30" fridge planned. These are full size. Windows are above cabinets - transom - to let more light into kitchen.

microwave needs to be at counter height or higher so we don't have to worry about tonka trucks and other toys being nuked. i know there are lock features on the drawers, but I can't trust myself to remember to always lock it.

We live in an urban area and the lots are very long and skinny. That being said, to optimize our lot, we have to build right up to the 5' mandatory setback on our property. The fridge/freezer wall looks out to a fence 5' away, so we decided to put transom windows over the cabinets instead of doing the traditional sink with large window looking at the fence. We went back and forth on this, but put the sink facing out to the family room so that I can watch the kids while doing the dishes instead of facing away from them and staring at a fence.

In terms of cooking - I'm usually the one cooking, and my husband sometimes helps with prepping, but mostly he'll help with cleanup.

The island size is just a placeholder, I was thinking about having 42" between the cabinets and island, but would appreciate input on this as well.

In terms of the double ovens, what would be a good place for them?? And how much clearance do I need for the fridge/freezer?

Our thoughts on placing the fridge/freezer on outside wall was that kids could go from family room to fridge/microwave, and not disrupt prep/cook/clean areas.

Would appreciate any improvements and placement ideas on this. Like I said, I've gone back and forth on all this and would love input from people who have done this.

I think it is a workable plan.

Since it is not a centered plan I don't think some minor shifts in position would detract from the plan.

I would make the island a bit smaller to increase the clearance in front of the refrigerator and freezer, and DW. (although there is another means of getting around...its an island so you are not blocking the only means of getting around the kitchen)

I would shift the cooktop over a bit to move it away from the oven stacks.

I am not sure you need a double main sink since you have a prep sink, and the DW is currently far away from the area where you will be putting the dishes. I am wondering if a single sink should shift down a bit and the DW go on the other side. That may not be ideal either, but since you have a prep sink a DW between the main sink and the cooking zone should not be too problematic. It may actually make more sense to have it closer to the action so you are not hauling dirty pots and pans over to the far corner of the kitchen. And if you are one of those people who keeps the DW open (?)
I would rather have it slightly inside the kitchen rather than at the entry point.

I like your ovens beside the range. I cook a lot and many things have to be started on the range, poured into casserole dish and popped in the oven. It is really handy to have the oven close when you have to carry something hot from stove top to oven.

I see your point about the refrigerator. If you want the kids to be able to access it from the family room, can you move it on down to the end by the breakfast nook? Are you getting side kicks by any chance?

Did you say where you'll store the dishes? I agree that having them close to the cleanup area is important. Also, I have a prep sink and a double clean up sink...because I've always preferred dbl bowl sinks. But now that I have the prep sink, I find the dbl bowl is not necessary and I'd rather have the benefits of one big single. I would want that even more if my kids were still young, and we were having more...A great baby bath tub!

As far as the oven, the only problem is that it's crowding your cooktop. I would either move the cooktop down (a foot or so), as Palimpsest suggested, or my preference would be to put it where you show the microwave and have the microwave in the bottom of the upper cab where you drew the ovens. Swap them. This opens the ovens onto the aisle you're going to make wider for opening the fridge and freezer. I would probably shift things a bit so that the fridge is centered under the middle window, so the oven door doesn't block the whole walkway to the butler's pantry.

I recommend 48" on each end of your island for the fridge doors and the dw door...That's what we have and it's great with family/kids in the kitchen. I would want the island closer to the cooktop for more efficiency in turning from island to stove and back. I have 36" between my island and rangetop and I wouldn't want more.

Thanks for all the great feedback. I forgot to mention, the double sinks are a placeholder. We're actually going with a Shaw's single bowl apron sink. And I agree, perfect for baby baths! So it sounds like we might need to switch the dishwasher to the other side of the sink. My thought process with having it on the right is that I'm right handed, so stack, then rinse (I know you don't have to, but old habit makes me rinse before I load - ha), then load. So left to right. But I agree with the point about it blocking the entry, so I'll have to think through that a little.

In terms of the ovens/microwave, it sounds like we need to either switch them or at a minimum move the cooktop down toward the sink wall a bit.

And I agree with moving the fridge/freezer down more toward the breakfast room, so we'll do that as well.

We'll definitely make sure the island is shorter so we have enough clearance on the sink and fridge walls.
No one has mentioned anything about the steamer/prep sink. Is the location in the island OK? And how much room should I have for the breakfast bar? I'm debating one level or 2 on the island, but currently have it as 2.

Thanks for all the feedback, this is great!

Definitely voting for one level on your island. I see no reason for 2. Sometimes people want to try to block off the view of kitchen clutter from a more public room but you don't have that situation. Dividing it into 2 heights just reduces the usable work surface by a LOT. Think of when the kids are older and you all want to gather around the island to make fun holiday treats...WIth 2 levels that possibility is gone. Your island is nice and deep behind the prep sink, but it'd be difficult to even wash with the higher bar blocking it. Add to all that the higher stools that are more difficult and possibly hazardous for little ones and for me, one level wins by a mile.

The prep sink location is great...Something people often foul up the first time through a layout. I'm not sure about the steamer, as I am not completely familiar with them, but now thinking about it...Why on the corner of the island. Won't it be hot? So it's reachable by little hands from 2 sides that way. Also, isn't it something you might want closer to the range hood for venting the steam and odors? I think I might put it next to the cooktop and span the hood over both, but maybe I'm misunderstanding its use.

@rhome - great points. The steamer is next to the prep sink because it has an electronic drain function and needs to plumb into the sink so I can just push a button and have it drain. But, that being said, I'll ask the builder if it's possible to move it next to the cooketop and plumb to the main sink (that seems far, but who knows) I'd much rather have it next to the cooktop.

If I do have to keep the steamer next to the prep sink to plumb it - the idea on having it to the right of the sink was so I could have the sink closest to "prep" area and not have to lift stuff up and over the steamer. However, I'm definitely open to moving it around, and ideally I wouldn't have it on the island at all.

If the steamer is on the range wall it gets plumbed to the sink in the wetbar--they are back-to-back walls.

Yay, Palimpsest! Seems the perfect answer, Amay1361. Good to get the steamer out of your prep area.

If you move the steamer, you'd be able to use the prep sink from the fridge wall, too. I think moving the fridge/freezer down to the breakfast area is a good idea. If you have some counter space, then the microwave, it will make a great snack area, as the kids get older. They can grab their treats, without getting in your way, while you're cooking.

One level island sounds perfect. It's a beautiful plan and it's obvious you've really thought out the details. I like the clerestory windows and the balanced doorways from the dining room.

If you moved the ovens (maybe an oven/microwave combination?) to the outside wall, maybe 2' from the pantry wall, you could really center your range/cooktop and make it a major focal point. The ovens would still be only a step away. Maybe a little broom closet in the 2' space between the oven and pantry? I like broom closets, with a high shelf for cleaners, especially with kids.

For dish storage, what about putting glass front upper cabinets in the corner (by the sink) and solid upper cabinets on either side of the stove? Do you like traditional style? Are you thinking wood or painted cabinets? Would love more details and maybe an inspiration picture! :)

@palimpsest - EXCELLENT idea to plumb the steamer to the wet bar sink. Love it. Ok,so we'll go with 1 level island. This is really coming together.

In terms of style, I'm probably more in the traditional camp. I like muted and neutralish colors - ie. Restoration Hardware colors. Attached some pics I found on the finished kitchens blog that I like. I'll go with painted cabinets. Also - I didn't mention this before, but I'm planning on going with the fully integrated look. So my fridge/freezer will look like an armoire (going with the Thermador Freedom integrated units), as will my dishwasher. So really the only stainless you'll see is the rangetop, ovens, and microwave.

I like the overall layout. It is attractive and functional. Here are my thoughts.

There are a lot of things crowded around one spot. The range, the ovens, the prep sink, the microwave, the pantry entrance, the passage to/from dining room are all squeezed into a few feet radius, through which traffic is supposed to flow. I worry that will be a congested bottleneck, especially if your style of cooking and entertaining is for everyone to hang around the kitchen and pitch in. I would consider spreading things out a bit.

For example:
- Ovens usually don't need to be at the center of the kitchen. You open the oven, put something in, close the oven, and don't come back for an hour. Something you only access once an hour doesn't need to be close at hand. You could move it to the left of the refrigerator.
- Opinions vary about microwaves. Some people use them a lot during cooking, and want them close by the cooking zone. Other people just use them for occasional reheating, and want them by the refrigerator. Others use them during beverage prep (hot cocoa, etc) so they go where-ever that will take place. For others, the microwave is the first appliance that kids can use, so they want the microwave low enough for a child to safely use, not up high to spill scalding cocoa on the kid's face. The logical place really might be in the island near the refrigerator. You might be over-stating the problem of kids nuking their toys. I never had this happen with my kids, and if it did, they'd never have done it again.

Aside from where various appliances should go, I wonder if the passage from kitchen to dining room will be a bottleneck. I can see trying to squeeze through, carrying a tureen of hot soup, while someone else is coming the other way seeking wineglasses, and the guests who got to the wineglasses first are hanging around the butler's pantry talking and in the way. At least, I would make this a very wide passageway.

The wet bar is cool. Will it be irritating to be unable to access it from the family room? It sort of looks like someone is supposed to stand in the wet bar, serving people at the counter. When the bartender is absent, will you have to take a long walk around, to get wine?

60 inches of refrigerator-freezer is pretty dominating, visually, and takes up a lot of potential counter space and/or storage. I don't know how much frozen food you actually need to have immediately at hand, but you could put some freezer storage in the pantry.

I agree with the other comments, there is no reason for a two-level island.

One other issue, whoever is standing at the prep sink may be in the way of whoever is standing at the range. That might be the same person most of the time. But in such a large kitchen, there should be room for multiple people to work.

Where are the other access(s) to the dining room? Will you use the dining room frequently? Informally or formally?

I really like the idea of having a launch-to-and-from-dining-room plunk space, sending prepared foot to dining room and receiving used tableware afterward. That butler pantry is in the perfect place for tablesetting items, if that's your gig. But the DW is far away and there isn't a lot of plunk space close by, although island may be your bigtime plunk space, once debris of cooking is cleared away.

Here's the sermon: Having a large dining room is a blessing and not a curse, if you know how to deal with it. Children raised to sit there and converse away from t.v. and distractions throughout childhood will grow up more civilized and able. Kids raised at a short-order counter or grazing from refrig and ready foods have handicaps that will magnify over their lifetime, physically and mentally. Having a place to think and focus is important, as well as having restrictions on food availability.

I can imagine working in this space, although as has been mentioned, there's not a lot of work space either side of cooktop. (Could ovens go to the left transom window?) Access to porch, dinette, informal living in fam room, more formal (?) eating in dining room--they all spin out from the center kitchen like a pinwheel. If anything, I'd increase width of walkpath between kitchen and dining area. Put a large tray in your arms with elbows out on both sides and walk through a narrow space that size.

Single-level island allows more flexible use in future. Kid projects, layout gear for scout meeting, launching a vacation cooler, etc.

Okay, after seeing your beautiful inspiration pictures and reading some of the concerns...mostly about the wet bar...I have an idea. If it's not for you, just disregard :)

If you opened up the doorway through the wet bar, so it was an easy access from the dining room into the kitchen, like the pantry area, you could easily get to the wine and wet bar, from the kitchen.

This would leave you with a doorway between your cooktop and sink...bad idea. So, could you split your fridge/freezer combo and put one on either end of your outside wall, with the sink and dishwasher, in between? This would give you a sink set up similar to your second inspiration picture and how often do you open the freezer, so it shouldn't block the pantry area too much.

The wet bar sink's current location, would now have a door in it...so the sink would move to the pantry wall, shortening the pantry a bit, but giving you a much more accessible wet bar. The sink would now be where the back of the pantry used to be, so the cooktop could be centered on the wall that's left betwen the two doors to the dining room, with the steamer still plumbed into the wet bar sink.

The opening to the family room (the solid wall part) is where I would put the ovens. I would make the space to the right of the oven a baking/snack area, with a prep sink and even use it as an extension of the bar, for parties.

The island would be for prep and seating. I wouldn't necessarily have another sink, but that's up to you. I think a built in garbage area would be a good idea...and make it easy for the kids to toss stuff in, as they get older.

The microwave could be part of the oven stack, a drawer in the island, or on a shelf, built in next to the fridge, depending on what you decide you want to use. The island drawer makes sense, but it would be more of a challenge with young children, so higher up might be better.

Anyway, if someone could draw this out, I think it would make a lot more sense, but I do not have any floor plan software. It would give you a baking area with prep sink, access to the wet bar, a cooking area with the steamer, a prep island with seating, and a lot more light from windows over the sink...make the fridge/freezer a little less bulky...and make clean up a lot easier, whether it's from the dining room or the breakfast area...and did I mention access to the wet bar! :)

For the most part, I really like your plan and you have gotten lots of suggestions from all the others. I only wanted to say one thing - as a mom. Do not plan your kitchen around this one phase that your children are in, unless you only think you will be living in this house for less than 10 yrs. I certainly remember the "toddler proof absolutely EVERYTHING" phase of my life, but now that my kids are both in school, it seems like the blink of an eye. I know you plan on having more children, and are imagining the toddler phase stretching out over the next several years. But rest assured that in the blink of an eye, the toddlers will be helping make cookies, be sitting up at the counter doing craft projects, you'll be packing lunches, preparing birthday/classroom treats, and crying over math homework.

The point is, when it comes to kids, they change so fast. Don't plan just for the now. Plan what makes for the most functional and flexible kitchen. To automatically rule something out because it "might be dangerous for the baby" just doesn't make sense. There will always be things in the home and places where you have to be diligent with young kids. It is impossible to "baby proof" everything.

I hope this isn't too messy, and all I had was old white out...but here's my first attempt at a scan. I put the microwave next to the fridge, only one window above the sink (lack of view) and moved the prep sink to the other side of the island, where it can be used from the stove or the baking/snack area.

The wet bar has the sink on the right, which lines up with the steamer next to the stove...and the prep sink on the island, which should make plumbing easier.

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but it does make flow in and out of the kitchen (hopefully) a little less congested :)

{{gwi:1518830}}

Wow, thank you so much. This is GREAT. I showed it to my builder and he said we can open up the wet bar to allow access through the kitchen. We will lose cabinet and pantry space, but I think it will be worth it. The only issue we have is moving the sink to the external wall and changing the window because the plans got engineered today. So we can move appliances, etc, but can't change windows and such on external walls. He said that b/c the way the trusses are set, we can open up the wetbar wall and shrink the pantry though.

So, if we keep the sink as is, is it really that big of a deal that you have a walkway to wetbar? It seems like you would have a walkway either way, whether it be dining room access or wet bar access. But I'm not a kitchen designer. I really like the idea of opening up the wet bar,so I definitely think we'll make that change, we just need to work through appliance location.

I'm so glad you like it! :)

Rhome and some of the other kitchen designers can probably give you more technical info on appliances, etc. If you want to leave the clerestory windows, fridge/freezer together and maybe move the double ovens over to that wall, that should still work fine. You could have the microwave over there, too, or have an oven/microwave stacked unit. I think they have some neat microwave/convection ovens, now, that work really well. I still like a broom closet on the end, just to keep the oven doors from opening into the counter, by the range...and the upper shelf is still a great place to stash cleaners...out of kids' reach.

If you're leaving the main sink and dishwasher in that location, you probably want to use the upper cabinet area for dish storage. It might be a good idea to switch the prep sink back to its original location, on the island, so you can use it from the range (don't want to walk that far to drain pasta) or the snack/baking area. As the kids get older, a snack area is going to be a great idea!

If you end up liking this plan, I'm sure someone with software could make a much nicer version, for you :)

{{gwi:1547979}}

I forgot to mention that you might want to trim a few inches off the island, to give the fridge/freezer plenty of room to swing open. That's an easy fix :)

Nobody else has mentioned this, but I wouldn't want my sink and dish drainer (for the non d/w items) visible from the family room.

I would also be more concerned about watching the kids while prepping than while doing dishes. Here are my thoughts: I often prepped when no other adults were home, so *that's* when I needed to be watching the kids.

At cleanup time, there were usually two adults around so it wasn't necessary to be able to see the kids from the cleanup area.

And I agree that kids change stages quickly. (And mine never tried to microwave anything, flush stuff down the toilet, or climb in the oven) (But, wow, could they climb!)

Just some thoughts.

Just thought I'd bump this up, in case anyone wants to try to make a nicer floor plan for you.

I don't think it matters, if you have a walkway between your cooking and cleanup areas, since you have the prep sink on the island. Just make sure it's big enough for draining pasta, etc.

The white cabinets, black countertops and red accents are really striking, together. Are you planning to use a soapstone or granite countertop? Do you like the red accents or are you leaning towards another color? You are going to have a beautiful kitchen! :)

You know, in the layout immediately above, if you went back to your original thought of a 48'' range w/ double ovens, the the exterior wall could have a counter all the way from the butler's pantry to the refrigerator/freezer. A nice baking counter, room for plating, extra prep space.

The windows there could then be full-size. I know they just look at a fence, but a large window is still nice for breeze and light. You can use frosted glass or window treatments for the lower part.

I know you are concerned about toddler safety, but a range isn't unsafe. Their oven doors get warm not searing (some are better insulated than others), and toddlers avoid heat like anyone else. The lower door of a double oven is placed low anyway.

The disadvantage of the 48'' range is that the ovens aren't out of the way (though neither are wall ovens at the location shown) and you can't get two full-size ovens (two compact ovens, or one full-size and one mini). Also I don't think (not positive) there is a 48'' induction range, in case you were thinking about induction.

Just a thought.

Hi amay - In reading your post, it made me think of our solution to the kid/snack/frig/freezer/micro dilemma. Here is what we did:

This picture shows the "wall" we created with full size freezer on the left/frig on right end. In between - prep sink, kid cups/plates/even silverware in drawers there. Also, love our bread drawer. Love the full size frig and freezer in my world - these would have taken a panel, but we figured a "wall of blue" would have been too much even for us.

The bottom "drawer" is actually a step to reach the microwave (which sits on that empty shelf) now that my boys are old enough to operate it on their own. I, too, did not want the microwave drawer and this has worked very well for us. I use the step to reach the tall shelves in these cabinets, too.

Not sure these ideas would work in your traffic pattern, but thought I would throw it out there. You have a beautiful plan - good luck with your build!