I'm concerned about 2 things...

1) The fridge. Pretty tight with the peninsula, and far from the stove with the dw maybe open in between? Not sure how big an issue that is in your house.

2) I'd feel better about the table location if the pantry didn't have to be there. How about a storage unit on the family room side of the sink run that functions as pantry, but doesn't look like it?

rhome, thank you so much for always responding - you pick up on everything! Do you have a waiting list of folks you are doing layouts for? I would love it if you or anyone could suggest a plan that DOES work. Every time I try to modify the plan for the better, other problems appear to be created. I've been waiting 15 years to be able to do this - update the kitchen and add a family room. My husband suggested getting rid of the partial wall (not a support wall) where the piano is, turning the peninsula 90 degrees into a lengthwise island, and move the piano somewhere else (but we don't want it on an outside wall). I initially visualized an island more like that, however I don't like the idea of the living room totally open to the kitchen - I've always felt that 5' length (6' high) is just enough separation. Good things about this plan were that the range could basically stay put, but I'd gain 3' of counter space on either side of it; the DW/sink would be only 2' to the left of their current location, and I'd have 3' of counter space on either side of the sink, with 3' of those feet also next to the fridge for unloading groceries.
I really need help!

Every time I try to modify the plan for the better, other problems appear to be created.

You have discovered one of the major challenges of kitchen design! Welcome to the club. ;-) The other warning is that we'll say, "If there was just 2 more feet," somewhere, sometime. It seems to always happen.

You have good reasoning, and there are always downsides to any plan...and you just have to choose which negatives you're willing to put up with to have the rest the way you want.

I will look at your layout and think some more.

2 questions:
Do you realize or care that people seated at the peninsula probably can't see anything or anyone other than right in the kitchen?
What was your plan with the corner base between the sink and stove? You can't access it at the moment.

I can't remember how you felt about having the counter more open to the family room, but here's a first try:

The corner looks like it is configured like a blind base pullout.

Could you do a counter-depth fridge to widen that aisle a bit?

How about doing seating at the great room passthrough, and turning the peninsula counter parallel to the piano wall?

Or, with more room for the table...You could turn as much of the 'pantry storage' into seating as you might like...and/or not have a seat on the end.

Thanks so much. LOL about "just 2 more feet" - that is EXACTLY what I keep thinking! Wishing I could move the sink wall back that way into the addition. Re. your 2 questions:
1. No, I actually don't care if anyone seated at peninsula only sees into kitchen. It was mostly for a quick family breakfast spot (we all leave at diff. times weekday a.m.) when the dining room proposal was "all the way in the back." Or for a guest to visit with me while I'm cooking. However, with the dining room table back to it's current location, we eat all our meals there just fine. Right now, with my 12" wide peninsula, there is a stool on the INSIDE for ME to sit when planning meals, looking at recipes, etc. and I do like it that way. Thinking that there should be at least one stool convenient for me, and anything else would be a bonus. Main peninsula functions: space for serving guests buffet style, and thought I'd use the "kitchen side" for baking prep.
2. My intention WAS actually for a trash pullout to right of sink & lazy susan in corner. (My husband does the program and I didn't tell him to draw it that way.)
PALIMPSEST, thanks to you as well. If I use Rhome's revision, I won't need a counter depth fridge (do want to avoid it if possible). If I turn the island around, it could only be 2' wide to have proper clearances of 31/2' around it, but we will mock up a layout like that, thanks.
REGARDING RHOME'S PROPOSAL: Having counter space more open to family room is fine. Prblm. is I want some type of opening over the sink to see into addition (and if it's only 3' long, it doesn't look right from the other side). Hence, there is more than 12' of insufficently supported load bearing wall. I will work on it & post again once it's modified on the architect program. THANK YOU!!!

The pantry portion is like I said above and should have labeled in the plans...at counterheight...Or more precisely, the storage is UNDER the counter that extends from the sink and bfast bar. So that whole area behind the sink is open to the family room.

Ok, thanks. We made a new layout similar to your first example. In the family room, would have a tall pantry closet for the 1st 5 feet from the corner. Then, a half wall for the rest with a cabinet buffet below (thought that would be even more useful than additional stool seating). There will need to be a supporting post at the end of that run. Re. the short kitchen peninsula, there would be room for a corner cabinet, a 12" cabinet, and a 12" overhang at the end to tuck a stool under for me (in the drawings the overhang is only 6" with an 18" cabinet, but I know that won't work). Do you see any big problems with this layout? Thanks a ton.

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This is personal preference, but I'm not a fan of the angled corner base cabinets...They inhibit floor space and shorten the counter frontage. The make deep corners that are hard to reach and have narrower openings for accessing the storage.

I still want to swap the 15" cabinet and the dw, to get the dw out of the path from stove to sink, and to put a trash pullout by the cooking/prep area that is also convenient to the sink.

This is personal preference, but I'm not a fan of the angled corner base cabinets...They inhibit floor space and shorten the counter frontage. The make deep corners that are hard to reach and have narrower openings for accessing the storage.

I still want to swap the 15" cabinet and the dw, to get the dw out of the path from stove to sink, and to put a trash pullout by the cooking/prep area that is also convenient to the sink.

Thanks. We'll take out the angled corner base cabs. What is your preference dealing with corners?
The way you are suggesting the DW/sink/trash is our current layout & I like it. We had switched them today in an attempt to make the sink look more centered under the window like opening into the family room (guess don't worry about that?). In your 1st proposal, it looks like the DW is only 1' clearance to the peninsula - is that ok? Thought there would have to be at least 2', but if I don't unload it from that side, and there would be no upper cabs there to store things it's ok?
Anything else layout wise? Thanks again and Happy New Year!

I like it with the exception of the angled corners. The DW could go either way, where it is seems closer to storage; switching it would get it out from between the sink and range. It depends if you are one of those people who keeps it open or not--if you don't keep it open, it doesn't matter as much.

Thanks palimpsest. Our messages crossed paths - hadn't read yours when I sent my last. I'll get rid of the angled corners, and go with what folks finds works best?
I never keep the DW open; didn't know folks did that! We don't run it more than once/day - after dinner. Gets unloaded before bed, or most likely 1st thing in am - traffic isn't a problem.

We'll take out the angled corner base cabs. What is your preference dealing with corners?

Lazy susan cabinets with 90 degree fronts, and a hinged door. The link below shows the type of corner cabinet I mean. Something similar would work in the uppers, too, with or without the turntable...just with shelves instead.

I did have the dw next to the lazy susan in one of my plans, so only 12" from the peninsual...If this is a problem depends on whether you'll need to get into the cabinet to the left of the dw or in the peninsula while it's open.

Our dw is open while I cook sometimes because someone else may be getting dishes to set the table, or be unloading the dw so it's cleaned out by the time we need to put in dinner dishes. You'll have to think through all the various scenarios that happen in your house, and decide what will work best for you.

Here is a link that might be useful: 90 degree front on corner lazy susan

"...there would be room for a corner cabinet, a 12" cabinet, and a 12" overhang at the end to tuck a stool under ..."

The aisle b/w the refrigerator and peninsula end is barely 3'...and that's assuming the refrigerator isn't any deeper than what you show. Most non-CD refrigerators are close to 36" deep when you count the handles...and then there's the 1" to 2" air clearance required behind them. CD refrigerators are usually around 30" deep once you count the handles with another 1/2" or so air clearance behind them (CD refrigerators usually require less air clearance in the back than standard-depth refrigerators.)

I bring this up b/c not only are you placing a stool there which, while you plan it for you, will probably end up being used by others but you are also skimping on overhang. The NKBA recommends a minimum of 15" for counter-height seating. Skimping doesn't really help...if someone is sitting there they will take up as much room as if you had sufficient overhang...they'll just have to lean farther forward to get to the counter. As it's designed right now, if anyone is sitting at the stool, no one will be able to easily get into the kitchen from that aisle (perhaps that's your intention? Force them to enter via the LR so they're not in your way while working at the sink?)

Personally, I'd rather see you eliminate the peninsula end and have a 15" overhang on the end of the counter run for a stool. Or, place a seating area for one stool on the end of the run on the FR side. It might change the "look" on the FR side, though.

Speaking of the FR, the pantry is very far from the kitchen...will you be OK with going back & forth that distance to get to the pantry during prepping, cooking, and cleaning up (to put things away)?

As with others, I also prefer the 90-degree corners...with lazy susans in general. However, if you keep the peninsula, I recommend taking a 27" wide cabinet, turning it 90 degrees and placing it in the corner. The doors/drawers would open toward the table and could provide storage for things like tablecloths, napkins, etc...things used in a DR. We did this and created a "Pet Center"...it's near where our dogs are fed so the food can, treats, leashes, etc. are all stored in this cabinet. (It's also the location of our flashlights & batteries.)

Doing this gives you a much more efficient use of storage space...storage is accessible and all of it is used. (BTW...it's 27" wide to provide "filler" space on the kitchen side so drawers clear each other when being opened on each leg.)

Dishwasher & Trash Pullout...As with RHome410, our DW is opened on & off during dinner prep & cooking and having it in your current location to the right of the sink would be a definite deal-breaker for me. I'd much rather take an extra step to put the dishes away than have to dodge an open DW even occasionally or prep over a running DW. If you and your family are really so well-disciplined that you never have an open DW during prep and/or cooking and/or baking (loading, unloading, "let me just put this one thing in the DW", etc.), then it may not matter to you.

If no one ever puts something in the DW while you're prepping or cooking...where does everyone put dirty glasses, plates, bowls, etc. from getting a snack or a drink while someone else is prepping or cooking? Does everyone stack their dirty glasses, etc. in the sink or on the counter next to the sink? If in the sink, don't the dirty glasses, dishes, etc. get in the way of prepping?

The above is to help you think through what really happens, not what you think happens. You'd be surprised how much of what we think we do isn't reality! I recommend watching what goes on in your home for a week or so. One caveat...if your DW is already in the middle of your Prep Zone, than you may already be compensating for a less-than-ideal (to me) location...i.e., you may have already adapted to "make do" with what you have, so you may to be able to tell for certain what would happen in a different situation.

I wish I had realized this at the time of our kitchen design...I thought the trash pullout would work better in the cleanup zone b/c of the way we worked in our old kitchen...I didn't pay close attention to how we were "making do" with a poor setup and thought what we were doing was what we would do in our new kitchen...not so! (I don't want this to happen to you and others, that's why I mentioned it!)

The other comment I have is that putting the trash pullout on the side opposite the DW means the trash pullout is not in the "ideal" spot. The "ideal" spot is in the Prep & Cooking Zones where the majority of trash & recyclables are generated.

Having the DW on the left, then the sink, then the trash pullout gives you the best setup...DW out of the Prep & Cooking Zones and trash pullout in the Prep & Cooking Zones.

HTH & Good luck!

I agree about the small peninsula, I would probably amputate that to eliminate a pinch point at the fridge. Although there is another adjacent entry point into the kitchen.

There is a 6 of one half dozen of the other situation then with the DW. In its current location it is in the cooking zone. If you switch it, it is closer to the entry of the kitchen,(now without protective peninsula) and if you leave it open, someone could theoretically walk into the kitchen and fall over it, bang into it, too.

(Even if you put a glass and plate in when someone is cooking: 15 seconds, tops? What are people doing eating when it's dinner time anyway? Of the two scenarios, both of which assume people are too self absorbed to stay out of the cook/s' way/s and not bright enough to be careful in a kitchen where the DW is habitually kept open...I would probably rather have it in the more protected position.)

Of the arguments for placement I have heard in kitchen forum, either position has its negatives--there is no perfect place for it. Perhaps a DW should come with an alarm that beeps like a garbage truck backing up.

Thanks once again for your responses. I sincerely gain more insight from each post. Thank you for sticking with me for the fine tuning of this plan. Rhome, I had read posts re. Rev-a-shelf, but hadn't looked that up yet; sounds good! Buehl, agreed about the order of DW/sink/trash p.o. - was saying I DO have it in my house that way now and like it. Had only changed it in the plan to more center sink to FR opening, but function trumps appearance. I want sink as close as possible to range; I will change it back.
Now thinking in sink/range corner will have corner cab, then trash po, then a very big sink (have to research this) vs. big sink with small one next to it - 2 faucets at any rate, then the DW. I do see all the benefits of a prep sink, but there's no other room for one. (Around corner from range will be our countertop MW - we think it's best on the counter.)
1. ANY SINK IDEAS FOR THIS?
Re. peninsula, I'd like to keep most of it if at all possible as I was planning to have baking supplies in that lazy susan & do baking prep there. (It's a "vestige" of an island I want but can't have.) What if I shorten it by 6" and just have the lazy susan, then an 18" overhang for the stool? I could sit on the end, or the kitchen side. That leaves a 31/2' pass through bet. end of peninsula & beginning of fridge (they don't overlap).
2. WOULD THAT WORK?
Related item, what minimum clearance do you recommend for pass through to kitchen, given new fridge loc? Current in home is 21/2', but with fridge moved there, was told it would feel "tunnel like."
3. WOULD 31/2' BE THE NARROWEST RECOMMENDED? That's what I have in current proposal.
Re. FR pantry closet, I'll have to cut it down from 5' to 4' since the big sink in kitchen will be shifted that way & I don't want a full wall blocking view from sink. That pantry would be for spare dry/paper goods & odd appliances, so the location is not ideal, but ok. I can also then add a foot to the half wall buffet and can store whatever is needed in there (incl. table linens, etc.) Already opened pantry items such as cereal, partial containers of rice, croutons, etc. will be stored in the kitchen.
Palimpsest, laughed when you wrote about eating during dinner prep - was thinking the same thing :o). I will do what Buehl said though & really think about what happens in the kitchen because it seems simplified. Eg. we each use our own 1 glass for the whole day and drink mostly water. If they want something to eat while I'm cooking, it's a piece of fruit (no plates needed). We sound like monks :o)! Honestly, the only time we seem to get in each others way is making lunch sandwiches on weekends - there's not space for 4 of us, but there will be! I will look at this more closely, though. THANK YOU ALL!

Did you say whether you're planning a French Door fridge, as you show in the drawings, or a single door? The Fr door would cause less of a block, of course.

The possibility of someone sitting in the aisle, I think, is what makes this a bigger problem, especially in combo with an open fridge door. What ages are your kids?

Those of us with growing kids in sports and other activities who occasionally require a different dinner time than the rest of the family can understand Buehl's scenario of someone eating while dinner is being prepped, and if they will put their dishes in the dw, what a bonus! :-) In a perfect world it wouldn't be our plan to have snacking or other eating going on during dinner prep...but it happens. Also, there are all-day meal prep occasions like when entertaining or hosting Thanksgiving and the darn kids think they need lunch! ;-) But the trash access from the cooking area is what would decide your dw location for me...as it seems to have.

I'm open to either for the fridge - french door or single, whichever works best. We drew french door for clearance. If I set groceries on the counter to the right of the fridge, and had a single door with handle on right wondering if that clearance would be ok if I shortened the peninsula, but maybe not? (I have a single door now and like it.) Does that peninsula revision sound practical?
My kids are 13 & 15. They are involved in sports, and there are times that we don't all eat together. I tend to make dinner time for whoever needs it 1st, so by the time anyone eats, I'm usually done cooking. We have a small kitchen, and just don't seem to have "traffic problems," HOWEVER as Buehl pointed out, it might be because we're so used to dancing around each other we don't even notice, and I also don't want to use that as an excuse for a bad layout. Hence, I keep coming back for plan revisions, thank you!

I took all the suggestions and got rid of the peninsula, fixed the corners, and switched back to DW/Sink/trash p.o. We thought it was time to call the architect. After we meet with him and get further along I'll post again. Thanks to all.