Felicity, if he were my dog, I'd have him neutered & enjoy him as a pet.

There are Rottweilers on top of Rottweilers out there needing homes, & your neighbor with the female is going to add to the problem.

& the neighbor's pups (your dog's "children") will be handicapped from the beginning, because they won't be eligible for registration, & the neighbor probably won't adopt them out.

He/she will try to sell them until they get past the puppy cuteness stage, & then, one way or another, they're history.

They'll go to a shelter/pound or they'll be free to good home from a parking lot on some nice Saturday morning.

Remember what a poster said above about being unsure of the temperament of a Rottweiler at a shelter?
Lots of Rotties at shelters are euthanized.

& people who take a free Rottie from a parking lot "adoption center" are making an impulse decision at best, & starting a puppy mill at worst.

You're looking for just that *one* puppy, the one that reminds you of the one you love now.

His biological offspring aren't guaranteed to be that one.

When the time comes, your heart will recognize the one you want (or maybe "the one" will recognize you, I've never exactly figured it out, but I do know that "cha-ching" moment of recognition happens).

Webcat, since you chose to attack me in a public forum, I am forced to respond to your rant:

I posted: "I have rescued one dog, and fortunately at the time I got her I had the time and money to put into her. She's a great dog to me, had one problem after another since the day I brought her home, and she is a purebred dog. Not a puppy mill bred dog. Most of her issues arise from how she was treated before we adopted her. IMHO someone else would have sent her to a shelter by now, but I have worked out each and every situation that has arisin in the last 12 years. So unless you have the time and money for "project", when you want another dog, go back to the breeder from which you got your current do and get a puppy that you can raise properly."

Webcat, don't talk about what you don't know. I didn't rescue my dog from a shelter or rescue, I rescued her from a horrible family who wasn't taking proper care of her. I paid the family full price that they originally paid for her in order to get the dog away from them, despite the fact that she was well beyond a young puppy. You seem to be stuck on the money thing - why?

I am sick of your rants when you don't have all the facts. So no it wasn't one bad experience with a shelter. Again, don't comment on what you don't know for sure. Why you would not post a question to me regarding my situations, but rather post an out and out assault on me, that is beyond my comprehension.

By the way, I am entitled to my opinion as you are yours, but I would ask that we try not to be so disrespectful to one another.

Also, I think the percentage of bad dogs from shelters is much higher than 20 percent, or all of my friends, collegues, acquaintances and family have the bad dogs.

I really don't care what you think. I care about my dogs and I am confident in my breeder.

I posted: "I don't equate one of my breeder's dogs with an $83 dog from a shelter, purebred or not, despite the chip and even if they threw if a year's food, the quality would never equate with what my breeder's dogs have in certifications of health, temperament, etc."

Your response: This is also a complete myth....mixed breeds are just as, if not acutally more, healthy as ANY pure breed out there....again, I am dumbfounded that anyone still feels that they will get a healthier dog with a sound temperment if they go to a breeder....simply not true...in fact, it seems as though everything the breeders do not have to disclose is surfacing...allergies, etc...

Again, have you met my breeder? Have you met or seen my dogs? Again, you should stick to things you know for sure. Don't rant about something you know nothing about.

You are ranting about irresponsible breeding. That explains problems in purebreds. If you have a responsible breeder you definitely will get a better dog. It is the irresponsible breeders who fill these shelters with alot freak show dogs. Yes, I have been to the shelters and seen what some of these poor animals look like.

I go to my breeder, not just any breeder, the one I researched and have had successful dogs from. I stand by my statement as posted.

I think you are stepping over the line since you don't know me or live at my house. You've never had the privilege of seeing or meeting one of my pets.

You want everyone on this post to go out and get a shelter dog. Well, guess what, some of us don't want a shelter/rescue dog, we prefer to go to our breeder for our dogs. I am guaranteed that I am getting what I want.

I have taken it as an out and out disrespectful assault on a post that I responded to. I have given my opinion. I haven't told anyone what to do or where to get their dog, unlike yourself.

I think I am now done.

Here are things that good breeders do:

They have all the family histories of both mom and dad. They have OFA hip and elbow certification grade excellent for both parents and 3 generations back, because breeding dogs with potential genetic disorders is unethical. The dogs are tested for Brucella, properly vaccinated and dewormed. The breeding dogs never had Demodex because that indicates an inherited immunodeficiency that ethical breeders would never propagate.

The parents are both excellent representations of the breed. Neither has any faults. Being a good looking Rottie is not enough. Their temperments are wonderful.

The puppies are well socialized to as many situations and people as possible before being placed. They are vaccinated, and dewormed. Are they going to be docked and have declaws removed? There are many ethical considerations with doing that, and have already been discussed ad nauseum so I won't even go there now. Both parents should be available for potential owners to meet. How are you going to arrange that?

Good breeders only place pups into good homes. It's going to be hard to find good homes for unregistered pups, especially if there is any certification lacking. How are you going to screen potential lousy owners? Who is going to conduct the potential owner interviews? Who is making up the owner contract and what will it say?

Good breeders follow up on the health of the puppies at least yearly, and warn the other pups' owners if there is any possibility of a genetic/heritable health problem. They take back the dogs at any time if the new owners cannot keep the dog for any reason.

Is your payment for stud services going to be pick of the litter or is the mom's owner going to get 1st pick? Who pays for injuries should the dogs fight during breeding? Who is paying for the breeding soundness exam and Brucella testing in your dog?

If you or the neighbor cannot or will not do everything that a good breeder does, then do not breed the dogs. If the dogs are not OFA or UPenn certified "excellent" for hips and elbows, then do not breed the dogs. If they are not both excellent examples of the breed, then don't breed the dogs.

Seems this is a touchy subject with many people. You and your neighbor do need to consider getting homes for the potential puppies. Go to the vet and make certain your dog is in good breeding health, and then have the neighbor do likewise. Blood tests should be done to rule out cancer etc, talk to the vet together and ask about potential health problems. Then find out how much all of this is going to cost you. Most responsible breeders have the puppies first shots etc and have them checked out by a vet before they go to a new home. Find out how much the neighbor is willing to put out financially as well as what you are willing to pay to maintain the health of the new puppies. Find out the laws in your state with regard to health problems with puppies being sold, and you might want to sit down with your neighbor before you start the breeding process and go over the legalities and sign some sort of agreement. Do you want stud stervices or pick of the litter etc. Do your homework and find out as much as you can about what you are facing. Good luck in whatever you choose.

Webkat5,

You said, "As the OP stated, her dog is not even registered....so you recommend that she return to that irresponsible breeder to get another dog?? How does that make even an iota of sense!
It doesn't....it just doesn't...I am dumbfounded."

The OP never said why she didn't have registration papers for her dog. It may have been her own fault because she didn't follow up and send the papers in for finalization. Also, some breeders refuse to release them until they see proof of neutering (which the OP says she didn't do), as a way of encouraging buyers to neuter them.

It's unfair to attack the breeder when you have no way of knowing the reason for the lack of papers.

This is all just a bunch of hogwash as far as I am concerned. To assume that a breeder is better than someone who lets his/her pure bred or mutt have pups is just plain unrealistic. Many years ago, I allowed my "mutt" to be bred by another neighborhood "mutt". Both were intelligent and sociable pets and it seemed like a good mix to us.

The neighbor kept one, we kept one and gave the other 5 away. We had absolutely no problem finding great homes for all of them. The best dogs I have ever had were "backyard bred mutts". There are no absolutes and I expect there aren't any real scientific studies comparing the medical problems between mutts and pure bred dogs. I can guess which ones would come out ahead, however.

I expect there aren't any real scientific studies comparing the medical problems between mutts and pure bred dogs.

Actually Roberta there is.

Labmomma, it is not us who are attacking you personally, just your advice is somewhat aloof and I suspect due from a lack of education about the entire breeding process.
Simply put no one can BS their way through this subject with those who know better. It's not an insult it is just a correction. And though no one can stop anyone from breeding (YET), I do think there is a moral consideration for the love of the breed, and or species that "perogative" should not have a part in.

What has it become politically incorrect to get the dog you want from the breeder you know?

I want a dog that I get from my breeder that I trust.

That's great for you, labmomma.

What is it about the OP that makes you think she and her neighbor qualify as trustworthy breeders?

cindyx - lets stick to the facts. You are not an US. My post was directed exclusively to your vicious public attack of my opinion and what I choose to do with my pets. What gives you that right to sit in judgment of me?

Please post what it is about my posts that makes me aloof? That I have intelligent thoughts, tho are different that yours. I articulate as best I can the opinion that I hold regarding various things or is it that I give people the benefit of the doubt rather than jumping down their throat?

I never pretended to know a thing about breeding. I post what I do know. I know what MY breeder is about. That's why I use a breeder - I don't know why can't you figure that out I've only posted about what I know about MY breeder?

What exactly am I BSing my way through. You make no sense at all. You may be the one who is uneducated. Just to give you an update - prerogative is a part of the rights afforded to every US citizen under the Constitution of the United States.

to woodlander - I have no idea what kind of breeder OP would make and challenge you show me where I post anything regarding her qualifications. In my first response to her post, I stated that I thought it was a bad idea. I also posted that should she go forward that she research, find out all you can, yada yada. Just because you think she isn't capable of being a good breeder doesn't make it so. Also, please don't assume that she won't breed her dog with the neighbor's dog. Not everyone has to follow your rules.

felicity, I'm skimming most of these posts because the subject gets me -- and many other people -- all riled up.

I just want you to think about a few things. The truth is, breeding your beloved dog is no guarantee of getting another puppy with the same temperament, health or looks... especially if you breed to another rottie with an unknown history.

And here are the ugly facts...

After you breed your dog, he will never be the same dog. He may start marking in your house, wandering in search of female dogs or humping, and he'll likely become moodier. There's a reason most show breeders choose not to live with stud dogs, preferring instead to let another breeder deal with the hassles.

Beyond that, not neutering your boy may put him at a greater risk for cancer... meaning you'd need that replacement pup a whole lot sooner.

How do you explain that? I imagine it is because the mixed breeds have naturally bred out problems such as these...makes perfect sense...no?

actually webcat that is not true either.

Mixed breed dogs often have double whammys so-to -speak making them more suceptible to the breed specific diseases of all the breeds they are mixed with. You can do a research on this by looking for controlled Veterinary health studies with mixed breed dogs.
And although I agree pure bred paper dogs do not mean great dogs by any means, what I do believe is what is on the papers does help when several of the generations of the dogs used in the breeding have been temperament tested,cleared of specific diseases as well as all the new DNA advances being made every day on ruling out inherited diseases which many good breeders take part in every day.
You are not going to see owners of mixed breed dogs on OFA or eye certication data bases.Doesn't mean they don't get the diseases, it just means there isn't a strong support for it to exist. Someone who pays $20.00 to $100.00 adoption fee isn't going to submit an $300.00 plus OFA xray to a registry with a dog that isn't going to be in any breeding program.
I like you am finding many of the statements here without any true merrit. Much of which I know is lack of true understanding about genetics in general,but it's also about what one considers a right verses doing what's right. I think the Poster does want to do what's right and she had no clue as to what that actually entailed. Hopefully those reading this post will learn enough to take the time to learn alot more before they jump into any breeding venture.

Posted by labmomma (My Page) on Sun, Nov 5, 06 at 16:01

Webcat, since you chose to attack me in a public forum, I am forced to respond to your rant:

cindyx - lets stick to the facts. You are not an US. My post was directed exclusively to your vicious public attack of my opinion
...........................
Both of the above statments were by you labmomma,
first you accuse webcat5 of attacking you and now me??????
A difference of opinion is not a vicious attack.

cindyx - you are right you didn't viciously go at me it was in fact webkat, my mistake, my appologies.

When I referred to your statement that "Labmomma, it is not us who are attacking you personally, just your advice is somewhat aloof and I suspect due from a lack of education about the entire breeding process."

I get the impression that you feel as webkat does which is absolutely your right but rest assured I do not lack education about the entire breeding process. I just don't feel the need to portray myself as an expert.

What was posted by webkat to me directly was not just an opinion.

By the way, please answer what it is that I have posted that comes off as being aloof. I am very interested to hear what you have to say.

Guys, c'mon. I know breeding is a volatile topic, but this doesn't help educate anyone. It only turns people off and makes 'em wish they'd never asked in the first place.

labmama, I am sorry you feel offended by my post. actually none of this is about you or me it's about what's right for the life of the pups if the poster chooses to breed under these circumstances.
Girlwithaspirin is right in the sense it will make the poster sorry they asked, but honestly I see no other way around this except to give intellegent reasons why breeding should be pursued only if those requirements can be made prior to not after a breeding.

You know what is true? The fact that great dogs can be had through qualified breeders and they can be had by the stray picked up on the street.

I totally understand that there are way too many homeless dogs and that is terrible. That said, I have gone the route (every time in the last 25+ years but my last time 6 weeks ago) of getting a shelter dog. Most were mixed breed but one was a purebred Field Spaniel. She was my 3rd shelter dog but the only one that was physically and mentally healthy. I have had 6 shelter dogs and had major problems with them all but #3. Much heartache, time, money and professional trainers along with a pricy gentleman that was supposed to be able to help me correct my dogs aggression to all others.

I'm sure that a lot of shelter dogs are not agressive or don't have genetic or mental problems but I must be about the only one where this was recurring and it helped me swear off getting any more shelter dogs. My heart (and those of my family) couldn't take another "project" only to have a very sad outcome.

I now have a dog that I paid $800 for but the parents (and grandparents) had certification in four areas of health. The litter was wonderfully socialized and Wesley came to us wormed, vaccinated, microchipped and neutered. The breeder will not release pups until they are at least 10 weeks old because time with Mom and siblings is very important in their health and learning his place in the world.

I know that we all wish eveyone the best when they acquire a family or personal pet. There are many ways to add to the family and none is more right than the other.

Robyn

Let me clarify something...ranting does not equal yelling or even an attack. I was, in actuality defending myself against this statement:

* Posted by labmomma (My Page) on Sun, Nov 5, 06 at 8:41

"I do draw the line at the continued insistence of some posters that you have to get a shelter/rescue dog. I disagree. In fact, darn sick and tired of the responses insisting you choose a shelter/rescue dog....I am really getting to the point where I am just tuning out and not even reading certain poster's responses because I can predict what their responses are going to be, so I just skip over their responses so as to avoid the aggravation."

It seems as though it is not ok for us "shelter dog" people to defend our reasoning.

I see...well, that's fine...no problem.

ՕՕՕՕՕՕՕՕ

Cindyx...just curious about the mixed breed health studies (I will look it up later, but thought you might know)....I was wondering if those studies were of direct crosses (Labs/Poodles, etc...)? I doubt they are studying the Heinz 57 versions, are they? It seems as though they would not have a control sample to work with...hmmm...

My vet has admitted that the pure bred dogs are (on a whole) less healthy than your average mix (not cross breeds...actual mixes).

Being smack in the middle of the puppy mill capital certainly drives pet advocates like me to be very urgent about the situation...when I know that every 9 seconds another pet has been killed.

I thoroughly agree with this statement:

"I see no other way around this except to give intellegent reasons why breeding should be pursued only if those requirements can be made prior to not after a breeding."

The prerequisites have not been met.

labmomma, why is it that anytime someone disagrees with you, you think they are judging you? Are you able to hold any discussion without getting huffy with people and crying "Stop judging me!!"?

I am really getting to the point where I am just tuning out and not even reading certain poster's responses because I can predict what their responses are going to be, so I just skip over their responses so as to avoid the aggravation.

Right back at you.

rivkdr - not calling judgment. As I posted I don't care what you think, I guess the advocate in me has prevailed in the past for the poor people who get jumped on by those like yourself. Unfortunately, I have somehow become the bad guy since I disagree with the shelter advocates.

webcat - I have only stated my opinion, but all of this quoting and italicizing what I say and picking it apart, is totally unncessary. I still feel the same way. You in particular are a poster I just skip over and tune out. The holier than thou attitude makes me ill. Why read your post, I know what I am going to hear. I don't enjoy wasting time. That's my decision.

I am just giving the other "side of the coin - getting a proper dog from a breeder" - it is you (shelter advocates) who have your hackles up. I am just one person trying to make a case for the other side. That seems to bother you to the point where you are picking apart my posts wherein I state that I don't want a shelter dog. You are coming across as if you have all the answers - which by the way, I don't think anyone has all the answers.

webcat, Yes, I do take offense at your posting techniques. I think I am entitled after reading your posts above after a full night's sleep. You didn't even respond to things I pointed out that you posted which were untrue. At least I have the humility to admit when I have made a mistake. I have made several. One being I get the names messed up on the thread and one may think I've gone round the bend since I am addressing the wrong person. That's not what's happening with you. You assume, you post, I clarify and nothing from you but more negativity.

As said by cindyx and I agree - the point here is to educate people. I also agree that it is not about me/you. I think I a getting jumped on for having a purebred dog. You may not feel that I am, but like email, the written word is interpreted differently than the word said face to face.

I myself would never pose a question here because of the way people (not me) are treated on this particular thread.

I just posted my opinion and I keep asking the same question, but seem to get no answer but that there are so many shelter dogs. Well that is true, but it is okay not to want to adopt one.

I think its great if you do want to go to the shelter/rescue for your pet if that's what you want to do. I have never discouraged anyone on this post or anyone anywhere in any situation from getting a shelter/rescue dog. Its a personal decision. I say good for you and good luck to those who are willing to adopt a shelter/rescue.

I am sure if you read my posts in the pet forums, but for feeling like I have to clear up some words being put in my mouth which I didn't utter - I am a very positive, supportive and caring poster/person.

Actually, I am sorry that I happened to get involved in this particular thread since it has been nothing but aggravation, save the few friends I have made. I have made many friends and aquaintances from the pet thread who don't think I am crazy. A little outspoken, and set in my opinions maybe, but isn't that the point, to let everyone have a voice without the fear of being judged. I certainly never judged anyone.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I have asked about the insistence of getting a shelter/rescue dog, but I have never said it was a bad thing. I may have posted that I wouldn't do it, but never said it was not for someone else. I can't seem to get a response except for negativity for my choices. So my last question will be why is it so bad to want your dog from your breeder rather than adopting a shelter dog.

I think at this point and seeing how this particular thread has gone so downhill, I will bow out and let you that know better give the advice.

Best regards.

"My vet has admitted that the pure bred dogs are (on a whole) less healthy than your average mix (not cross breeds...actual mixes)."

Yes but I would assume that the pure breds that your vet treats are probably like the majority that come thru the clinic I work at. Pet store puppys, or from someone who is a mass producer of puppies, not an ethical breeder trying to improve the breed. Or maybe a neighbor who just happens to have a few litters of the breed they own. Very few of them come from anyone that could remotely be considered a good breeder.There are no guarentees with either a pure bred or a mutt that you are going to get a healthy dog but at least a good breeder is trying to put the odds in your favor that you will. And for the record two of the three shelter rescues I've had both had behavior problems that I figure are what landed them in the shelter to start with.

Lisa

I have a purebred dog. granted he does not have papers, but I got him FREE, and he has been the best dog I have ever had, I think it depends on people how the dogs turn out as well.
question.. is this a myth or truth, I have heard that if you breed a German rott with a American rott, that if the dogs head does not grow as big as the brain that it can make the dog mean from brain swelling?

"The holier than thou attitude makes me ill."

At first, I wondered if you were telepathic (I was thinking the same thing).....but if caring for all of these unwanteds in the world who many others have been trying to "sweep under the rug" makes me "holier than thou", I will accept your compliment...LOL!

BTW...I ask for clarification all the time when I have something confused.

Ok my last words on this....the original post was not discussing getting a shelter dog verses a pure bred. It was about someone wanting to breed their pure bred just because. Major factor here that went wayyyyyyy off course because IMO the post got hijacked. Understandably so as this is a very passionate subject and confusing to those who may not understand the whole picture.
If I was to put this in laymens terms there is not one good reason to breed any dog ever that has not been proven to be breed worthy. Proven means tests done that have been graded and filed with the national data basis whatever country of origin that may be. Otherwise one is simply contributing to the problems of the breed instead of the bettermeant
thereof. Even if one just wants the pure bred as a companion dog it still needs to come from lines in which the breedings were about health, temperament. Even if one thinks thier dog is healthy both body and mind many things can go under the radar because the dog was never actually tested. Unknowingly one could be breeding a dog that can carry a degenerative gene ( even if the dog itself doesn't come down with that infliction) he/she could pass it on to their offspring and become some caring loving owners nightmere! Now with that said any dog can get sick even after passing tests. Vaccination overload, exposure to toxins, poor nutrition etc. There is no sure fire way to breed a perfect dog. However there are things that can be in our control when we choose to take on the role of breeder, which is what seperates the good breeders from the bad ones. To ignore those concerns is only hurting the breed.

You know it really is much easier to find a shelter dog if you have few criteria in mind for your next pet or if you're looking for a large dog that isn't non-shedding.

If you want a small dog or a non-shedder for example, choices become much less available and there are often many people competing for that pet.

If the type of dog I want requires a larger than normal adoption fee (and I've seen some that were $500) and I have to be on a long list of potential adopters vying for that particular dog, the truth is, it doesn't feel like a rescue at all. It feels like I'm just buying a dog and if I'm going to buy a dog, I want to look at many options and choose the best fit for myself. After all, that dog will be with me for 15+ years and I need to be pleased with the situation.

When I was younger, I was much more willing to bring home a friendly stray and keep him if he wasn't claimed, accepting whatever his size, breed mix, or sex was. Now that I'm older, I'm pickier about what I want. I want a small dog I can easily travel with now that the kids are grown. I want a dog that will be easy to lift and bathe in the sink, etc.

I did look at the humane society and saw nothing but huge dogs there, most of them pit bull mixes. I watched Petfinder for a long time but every dog that fit what I wanted didn't truly need a home. They had plenty of interest in them.

Of course, I could have adopted a special needs or senior dog, but I had just put down a dog who had been ill for a long time and was unwilling to go through the heartbreak and expense again so soon. I also have another older dog who will soon have needs of his own.

Also, rescue organizations who collect donations for the severe medical needs of some of their dogs and go to extreme lengths to save these animals make me feel as though I would be expected to spare no expense in caring for one of their dogs if I adopted them. People who have families have to put their well-being first and can't usually afford to spend thousands on a pet even if they would like to. This has been a deterrent to my adopting from a rescue, too.

So, I went to a breeder and bought the dog of my choice. My next dog may come from a shelter or the side of the highway, but only if it's a dog that would fit into my lifestyle. I will continue to try and convince people not to do backyard breeding and to spay or neuter their pets. I'll continue to stop and pick up any lost dog I see and try to find the owner or a new home if necessary, and I may even volunteer with a rescue group. There are other ways to help homeless animals than to bring them home.

It think we should put this one on ice until the poster comes back and gives us some sign that a decision has been made or is in the process of being made. Or at the very least reading the replies.

There are two instances where I wouldn't have a problem with someone breeding their own dogs by modern day standards and that is if they 1.) Intended on keeping all of the puppies for themselves or 2.) Was is some remote village someplace where access to animal shelters and breeders isn't feasible and the dogs weren't sold for profit to areas where they were. An example of 1.) A farm way out in the middle of nowhere. 2.) In northern Canada there would be a demand for dogs but probably not any kind of overpopulation problem. (I could be way off base in this example- I don't really know)

To me, this is more about breeding more and more dogs than there are people to take them and about many excellent pets at shelters. My $83 dog is priceless to me obviously.

Micke, we hear a somewhat similar statement with Dobermans. They are prone to "eye boogers", suposedly that is brain matter leaking out and if it can't then their brains will just keep growing until their heads explode.

For your question, a Rottweiler is a Rottweiler. You can have American bloodlines or German Bloodlines. A true "German" dog would be one that was itself imported from Germany. Nothing more or nothing less. Generally whenever you have anyone putting names like German, Teacup, Tiny Toy or anything else if it is not part of the official breed name, ie, English Cocker Spaniel, then they are just trying to make a dog that does not conform to breed standard more acceptable and hopefully sell it for more money.

Lisa

Sometimes I wish you could only reply once to a post.

State your opinion and go on. Don't comment on someone else's opinion.

Should you breed the two neighborhood dogs? My opinion, no but the neighbor is probably going to do it anyway.

Okay I know some people who own rotts that they say are german and they call them I think 'meatheads' and boy are they huge!! but they say that the main problem with rotts is that people have bred the German ones to the Doberman and that is how we got a American breed, they also say (and these people have a real attitude about their dogs, like they know everything, so I tend not to believe them, but I don't know) that as long as you keep to a German bloodline you will have no tempermant problems, they say the problem is the Americans heads sometimes do not grow like the brain does and that is where you get the problems.
so are they wrong? can I rub it in their face next time I see them? just kidding of course.
everyone come on, lighten up. I don't know any good jokes or I would tell a few. but I do know one thing from reading these posts I respect all your opinions on animals, I think you all have good points, please try to look at both sides of the issue w/o getting angry at one another. pretend there is some lovely mood music in the background:) mine just happens to be Def Leppard and it is keeping me quite happy:)))

Micke, a favorite saying of mine is "Never argue with an idiot, people might not know the difference". I'd think you would do well to keep that in mind when talking to the folks telling you all this bovine excrement. Any Rottie bred to a Doberman would be a mixed breed, not a Rottie. I've known people who imported dogs and got some really good ones, and people who have gotten really bad ones. When approaching someone in a foreign country about importing one of their dogs you have to be very very careful. Unless you have a reputation as being a serious competitor in conformation, or with sport dogs they are not likely to sell you the best their breeding program has to offer. They will however gladly sell you something that they wouldn't keep or sell locally and for a very large price tag. Also a lot of dogs may have come from a kennel that say twenty years ago was great but now will breed to anyone with the money to pay their price and are still getting away with it by riding the acomplishments of the great dogs from the past.

Lisa

thank you lisa

I think I heard the OP screaming as she ran down the corridor, trying to get back out to her Gardenweb!

Woah! I had no idea this was such a hot button! Let me just say, very clearly:

Our dog has great health and a great temperment. This is why we would want to continue his line.

As far as why he has no papers, he was a rescue dog. His mother died, I think heat stroke, but I'm not sure of the exact circumstances, and Fatty and his brother were brought to our vet tech friend for care. She bottle raised them from the size of kittens.

Thank you, meghane, for your post beginning:
"Here are things that good breeders do:"
That is exactly what I was hoping for. I know about the hip certification, just haven't had it done yet. I'm sure I could go back to the vet my friend worked for at the time to get more family history.

He has had all his shots, and regular vet care. What is Demodex? that is something I'm not familar with.

also, thank you mazer for a useful, informational post.

Refer your good neighbor to a Rottweiler fanciers club in your area. The club members can explain all the good and bad points to the individual.

It may be your neighbor has a fantastic animal, and the club members can help him evaluate the situation.

Mange

Here is a link that might be useful: Demodectic Mange

Our dog has great health and a great temperment. This is why we would want to continue his line.

Having great health on the outside has nothing to do with passing on bad genes that you may not even be aware of. Each breed has unique health issues indigenous to it's own kind. Without several generations being cleared of such health issues and now being cleared of certain tests through DNA's you run the very likely risk of passing those problems on that others are working so hard to avoid.
And having a great temperament is more than just saying it, it is an actual test that is performed and graded per breed. Without testing one has no proof. I think that's what is being totally missed here.
It's like saying because my dog acts very protecive of me that he'd be a great protection dog, if that were the case there wouldn't be so many dogs that fail the protection testing.
It's not that I am picking on you or anyone else, I just am trying to help those understand what the words,terms actually mean and why they are so important to know about prior to breeding.

This is exactly why I quit stating my opinion. Lincoln once said...
It is better to remain silent and thought a fool.....
Than to speak up and remove all doubt.

I personally enjoy an opinion but on this forum some people take it way, way too far by attacking and being really rude and ugly to the poster. This is soooo unfortunate.

Unfortunate and fairly new, rthummer. I figure folks will either settle down or move along, leaving the old timers who seem to LIKE each other in peace again.

When I read all of this about dog breeding, my mind wanders to human issues with genetics and how we would feel if we did this kind of super-selective breeding among all of us. We don't do that. We do it the old fashioned way - randomly based on illogical and variable attractions between males and females. Whenever you try to improve our "breed" you end up with megalomaniacs taking it too far, or jokes about marrying your cousin. So how come this is "good" for dogs? Without getting into an argument, can someone explain this a bit?

With purebred dogs the gene pool is much smaller than in humans and thus you are far more likely to make pairings that are hiding recessive genes that could produce major health problems. Some breeds may have only a few hundred ancsetors if that many, they were developed from and it's almost impossible to find dogs that are not related to each other, increasing the chances for bad genes to express themselves even more.

Lisa

So it looks like the OP read everything here...took the one or two things she wanted to hear, and ignored the rest. You can see how taking the time to try to inform others is worth the effort...

below is an excellent link that covers just about everything that has been mentioned here and why there are such strong opinions against random breeding.

Here is a link that might be useful: eliminating gentic diseases in dogs

nancyinmich - don't you find it really exciting when a new, fresh and sometimes very different poster joins in. I think the more people in the pool the better. A club of just a few regulars would get pretty boring after a while, no?

I am a new poster to this forum, but I am not going anywhere. I probably won't settle down either, since that is not my nature. However, I will say I think that the rudeness factor is an issue. It serves to make your skin a bit thicker :-).

Hi labmomma, yes it is nice to get new folks, but not when all they want to do is argue! It is so easy to sound offensive in print, compared to when discussing things in person. All are welcome, but don't get upset if someone points out that you "sound" stronger than is polite. This is not a comment aimed at any one person, just something to keep in mind. I think that different online communities have different styles. Here, we traditionally write in complete sentences, use caps and punctuation, and try to sound civil and helpful without getting too uptight about a thread going a bit off topic. People generally pick up on these things, and when old-timers point them out, it is nice when newbies don't throw it back in our faces!

Right now, for instance, I want to rant about the concept of purebreds, but I won't.

nancy_in_mich,

Thank you for such a warm welcome.

I will certainly remember all of your helpful hints. I will say, however, that I have been using this entire website, although not as a registered member for many years. I recently decided to join in because of my love of all animals.

There must be many "newbies" since there are many offenders of your "traditions". Perhaps it takes a little while to get used to they way things work here.

I always welcome new people to any situation in life, family, home, work, but I am really starting to get the feeling that perhaps newbies (like myself) are not such a desired addition. I don't think it has anything to do with punctuation or capitalization.

I was anticipating a friendly group of people since this is a pet forum. I assumed that everyone had the same basic goal, to do the best for our pets and share information, hear people's stories, etc. So far, things have been more of the not so friendly variety. Icy is a word that comes to mind when I think back on the past month's responses to some things I have posted as my opinions. That's a shame since there are quite a few posters I truly admire.

Why would you want to rant about the concept of purebreds? Don't you think that statement comes off a bit stronger than polite, since I have posted many times that I own purebred dogs. Go ahead, put me in my place if you feel the need. I don't feel the need to appologize for my purebred dogs or my opinions.

Labmomma & Nancy in Mich
I am new here too, or at least to the pet/debate boards. I found Gardenweb when I was researching red wigglers.
Then I saw Animal DEBATES. LOL and went "oh my, I bet there will be some fun there."The thing is none of us seem to seperate the Debate forum from the Pet forum. I'll be the first to admit I didn't expect to see people playing nice, but maybe we should on this forum and save the rants for the debate forum. Thing is, half the time I don't even pay attention to which one I'm on.
Also, I still don't know who the newbies are and who the old timers are.My feelings are, we are all members and have just as much right to our opinions as anyone else.
Labmomma, I've always found,on any forum, that when people start pointing out spelling errors and things like that, it's because they know they are losing the argument and need to have "something." :-)

Labmomma, I should have included the winkie, my comment about purebreds is a semi-sarcastic reference to the "fights" that have broken out lately.

I personally think that we should all have the pets of our choice, but I do find it hard not to go "Duh" when people say on one hand that one must be so careful about breeding purebred dogs to avoid genetic problems and on the other hand say that people should not breed mixes. I breed nothing, so I am not involved in the arguement at all, I just like my mutts. I was also raised to ridicule instead of resent things that I could not have (lets be honest here), so there is an evil impulse inside of me to put down purebreds, since we were not of a class who would spend a penny acquiring a dog. Regular folks got mutts, hoity-toity people who were full of themselves got purebreds. It is an unpleasant side of my personality that I prefer to supress. I sprung a small leak in the form of a joke and I hope you will accept my apology.

Yes, for years this has been a friendly group of people encouraging each other and admiring our pet pictures. Lately it has gotten nasty. I am not sure why. I-village kind of encouraged it more by adding that "pets debates" forum, too.

Did you ever hear the story of how SylviaTexas saved the life of a dog in Canada (or one of the northern US states, I don't remember)? Pretty impressive tale. She is humble and may not take much credit, but that day I realized the power of the 'net to make differences in our individual lives. And I learned that these forums may not be just a silly pasttime.

Beanne- the Debate forum is new, and I wonder if it was started in response to the many threads here that went out of hand. It encourages the less-than-polite practices we have been noticing. Funny thing is, I think it is sometimes more polite over there than it is here!

Yes, we all have right to our opinions. I don't think that old-timers have any ownership of the forum, it is just that we once had better manners here and it was newer people leading the headlong rush into incivility. And you are absolutely right about spelling errors.

Over on Building a Home, a group of folks who had been there for years got ticked off when one of them was Sent to Disney. In the old days, when Spike owned and ran these forums him/herself, if incivility popped up, Spike would send you an email warning. The second time, he would fix it so that every time you tried to log onto This Home Site, you ended up getting forwarded to the Disney World site. You could not reregister easily under a different name, because the computer signiture was recognized. Folks on Building a Home got fed up that their friend was exiled for what they considered a minor infraction and off they went to start their own forum elsewhere on the web. I hung out there for a while, but it was kind of negative, people seemed to be over-enjoying the freedom of being away from Spike. I think for a while now, the Pets Forum has had that same feel.

It used to be, in the days of Spike, that old timers would sit back and watch newbies who broke the rules get booted off the site. We would probably roll our eyes and just wait for the impolite person to learn the hard way that civility was THE rule here. Then Spike sold to I-village and things slowly changed here. We knew what Spike's rules were, we trusted that they would be enforced. So if old-timers just treat these arguments with a bit of humor and then get a bit POed when they go on and on and on, it may be because we still kind of expect Spike to be out there keeping the forums safe for disagreements, as long as they stayed polite. Sometimes I miss our Spike.

nancy_in_mich -

When I first starting following the pet forum the Animal Debate Forum was just starting out. I thought bad idea, but it has proven to bring out the true personalities and ideas of a select few with some pretty strong opinions. Personally, at this point, I sit on my hands, I am really weary over having my words italicized and repeated just to point out what I said, what is wrong with me, etc. I like to stay on the Pet Forum thread, although I will say, I have to jump in now and again.

As for the purebred thing. I, like you, breed nothing. I leave my dogs' breeding up to someone I trust. I grew up with All American Black and Browns that we loved the same way I love my labs. The lab was the best choice for my family because of a disability suffered by my DD. When I take an puppy in to my house, it doesn't go back out, ever, until the end. So, with the breeder I know and trust and the wonderful dogs I have gotten from her, I have been very happy. It isn't a money thing or a status thing. It is looking at a bad situation and trying to work it out, how can my child have a pet? How much can I do? Which is the most gentle and loving breed for our situation.

That said, I did rescue my first labrador - from a home where I paid the woman full price for an older puppy that I saw being abused by its owners. I wanted that dog out away from that situation so badly, I would have given her my car if she would give me the dog. We have had her now for 12 years. She will be 12 on Saturday. Despite some problems from being abused, she has been a good companion for my child. All 3 labs have worked well. I am not saying that an AAB&B wouldn't have done as well, I just could not take the chance. I wanted a breed of dog from a breeder I could trust that would work out for sure. So far, it has served me well. Would I take a shelter animal? Sure, but that's not what life has given me the option to exercise right now. I have 3 rescue cats as well.

You mention the stories of other posters. I am amazed at the total dedication and generosity of people who post here. Just recently a poster put all the pictures of her fosters/rescues from this past summer. What a beautiful thing. Those are the posts I enjoy most if you would like the truth of the matter.

I think in every area of life we could all use a manners wake up call, and try and sit on the rude comments that are brewing in all of us. I definitely do not want to be directed to Disney World, now that would set me on a rant:).

I think there are multiple problems at hand:

- new people to the forum jumping in and not knowing the forum culture.

- people posting to this forum threads that are better suited to the animal debates forum.

- people unable to recognize that someone disagreeing with you is not a personal attack.

- bad feelings from the animal debates forum bleeding over into this forum.

- lack of moderation. Most forum sites have someone who sits there and reads through every post and removes them if something gets out of hand. This site only removes threads/posts if members report them.

- general forgetfulness about manners. I definitely add myself to this group; I know I can be more blunt than I should be.

Personally, I think the animal debates forum was probably a bad idea. The purpose of this site is to get help and guidance for Home projects, no? I don't see how an Animal Debates forum fits into that purpose, and all it seems to do is stir up bad feeling, much as I enjoy flexing my claws over there.

rivkadr - I agree with most of your post. I for one forget which forum I am on. I need to be more careful in paying attention to where I am.

However, I think things are taken personally when a follow up poster names you by name, cites your post and then "sets you straight". I really don't think a moderator is required, I think that if we all just take a deep breath and think before we post, it will serve us all very well. I also think that finger pointing and reciting someone's prior post is a bit rude. I am guilty as well. I intend to not do this in the future, however.

I do agree that the written word can come off very strong, even if not intended as such. I have seen this with the kids and the IM on AOL. I had a long talk with my child regarding not saying things in written word what you would not say face to face. I think there is a false bravado feeling of not being face to face with whomever you are speaking with.

I do agree that the debate forum is stirring up the worst in all of us, especially when we get on about debating political issues. I think it is a mistake, and my mother always taught us that politics and religion had no place in polite conversation. I intend to heed her wise advice.

Just giving some of my own thoughts. No judgments.

I also think that finger pointing and reciting someone's prior post is a bit rude.

Sorry, not trying to be ironic here ;) That's the point of a debate, though. To take someone else's argument, point by point, and refute it.

I think the problem is that some people in the debate forum have actual debated before (i.e. been on debate team), and others have not. It isn't a fair playing field.

Reciting someone's prior post (in italics, even) is just a way to let everyone know exactly what you are responding to. It isn't rude.