I'm the "some guy" :), and here's a pile of info I've assembled on the topic...

From the Spring 2006 issue of POMONA:
In the 1920s & 1930s, J.Russell Smith grafted a number of Asian persimmons onto native D.virginiana roostock on his farm/nuresery in the Blue Ridge mountains of VA, near the WV border. At one time, Smith had 29 different Asian persimmons thriving and fruiting in his plantings. Over the past 6 years or so, Mr. Willam Preston has found the following varieties still surviving and fruiting in Smith's abandoned plantings: Giboshi, Shaumopan, Kishimoto, Manerh, Pen, Tsurushigaki, Smith #1 & #4, Delicious, Aizu Michirazu, Yokono, Akadango, Benigaki, Great Wall, Peiping

From Purdue: Cultivars that are especially hardy in Maryland, Pennsylvania and Virginia include:
'Atome', 'Benigaki', 'Delicious', 'Eureka', 'Great Wall', 'Manerh', 'Okame', 'Peiping', 'Pen', 'Shaumopan', 'Sheng,' 'Tsurushigaki', 'Yokono'

Varieties planted at Wye Plantation, 50+ years old (before Polar Vortex, winter 2013-2014):
Tecumseh, Saijo, Sheng, King Sun (Kyungsun Ban-Si), Great Wall, Aizu Michirazu, Giboshi

I don't have any experience growing them yet, but I've been looking into getting Saijo, Great Wall, and/or Rossyanka based on reviews and hardiness. From what I've read Rossyanka seems to be hardier than Nikita's Gift, but in 6b I don't think you need to worry about either.

I remember reading that Great Wall isn't that good of fruit. My understanding is Nikita's gift is much better fruit quality compared to Rossyanka.

Have had Rosseyanka growing here for over 10 years. Nice, mostly seedless, lends itself well to drying; flavor lacking, compared to any American, and most Asian persimmons I've grown.
Nikita's Gift (a seedling selection of Rosseyanka backcrossed to D.kaki) is supposedly better - I've made multiple grafts of it 3 or 4 times, with no success - suspect that my scionwood sustained winter damage prior to collection. Probably hardy in z6, but sustains winter damage, annually, at Terre Haute, IN.
Saijo should be good for you - and is, perhaps 'the very best one', as it's name supposedly translates from the Japanese.
Great Wall and Sheng have been hardy here - and also have a long history of surviving and fruiting as far north as Pennsylvania.

Sheng has a cool shaped. How is the flavor?

Saijo is also high on my list. I have read it is very sweet but is lacking in flavor. Also some websites list it as zone 7 when others list it was zone 6.

Tecumseh looks interesting as well. Edible landscaping claims you can eat the fruit into January and February!

I posted on the previous as well, I'm in 6A and last winter the nikitas gift died from the extended time near its hardiness limit. Didn't get below the limit, but stayed near it for too long.

I have zero real experience myself with Nikita's gift, but I feel like I've heard enough anecdotes to believe that Nikita's gift isn't really any more hardy than full Asian astringents like on Ampersand's lists above. Does anyone have evidence to the contrary? Or is Nikita's gift more desirable in some ways or for some uses than the full Asian astringents? For whatever reason it does seem that the people that have grown it like it.

My Nikita's Gift is 6 yrs old and about 12 feet tall and growing about 5 ft from the South of my house for better micro climate. This past winter the temp low was -17F. The NG died back all of the 3-4 years woods to the trunk. This summer it grew back to it previous form. I loved the fruit. It was firmer, redder, and real sweet. Very good for drying too.

Tony

I'd also like to chime in to check that the Americans I'm planning on will be self-fertile. (From what I've seen, Meader is highly questionable, so I'm paranoid about the others.)

Right now I'm leaning towards Prok and 100-46. Also, would having an Asian or Rosseyanka nearby help stimulate fruit any?

@ tjasko

From what I found Prok and 100-46 were exceptional American persimmons. Also Early golden seems good. I just can't plant them because they get 60 feet tall and my property isn't appropriate for that.

Although I've had plenty of Asian persimmons I've never had an American persimmon. My understanding is American persimmons have a richer flavor but you need to basically wait until they fall from the tree.

Any input on Nikita's Gift? Does it have any flavor resembling an American persimmon or does it basically taste like an Asian persimmon?

NG had a richer and sweeter taste than Fuyu. When fully ripe the fruit is firmer and not mushy like others. 100% Kaki taste here.

Tony

Update:

I've decided on getting a hybrid persimmon. I figure I already eat Asian persimmons when they are in season and I can track down American persimmons next year at a farmer's market. Plus I only have room for 1 tree and I'm not sold on the self-fertile American persimmons.

The one's I know about are from nuttrees.net Nikita's gift, Kasandra, and Rosseyanka. Also confusion of whether Prok is a hybrid? Another one I found was Black Beauty although one source said it was the same as Rosseyanka?

I'd also be willing to test plant an obscure hybrid. Why not?! For science!

... I'd prefer to do bareroot so if anyone could direct me to a reliable supplier of hybrid, bareroot persimmons that'd be perfect!

Cheers!

Here is a link that might be useful: Link

This post was edited by NJgrower on Thu, Jan 8, 15 at 0:07

Hidden Spring's stock may be on the small side, but I think it's priced appropriately, and I've found them to be very good to deal with through about three or four orders. They sell Rosseyanka and several native persimmons, all bare root.

England Orchard (nuttrees.net) or Burnt ridge nursery they both have a larger size NG.

Tony

When are bareroot persimmons suppose to be planted? I am asking because Hidden Springs Nursery is sold out until Fall 2015.
England Orchard says "container grown". So he ships bareroot despite this?

Cliff grown them in container but shipped them out in boxes with very little soil in them. Burnt Ridge sent them out bareroot with moist newspaper and/or woods shaving.

Tony

NJ,
Burnt Ridge still offers Nikita's Gift. I bought mine from it last spring. They sent me a good sized bare root tree.

I planted them on 4/13/14. Just be patient after you plant it. Generally, persimmon takes longer than other fruit trees to leave out. Don't panic.

When I ordered an Asian persimmon from Burnt Ridge they couldn't even tell me what species the rootstock was; they only told me it would either be D. kaki or... and I can't remember if the other option (at that time about 3 years ago) was virginiana or lotus. In any case, if I were planting in 6b I definitely wouldn't be comfortable ordering from them.

Nolin Nursery might be another option, higher priced but seemingly quite reputable -- I haven't dealt with them myself yet. They list Nikita's gift together with a bunch of native cultivars. However, not that I have substantial experience, but I'd lean toward Rosseyanka over Nikita's Gift, particularly in 6b.

They emailed me saying it's D. Kaki x virginiana. I took them at their word. This is my first persimmon. Do not know if I want to plant more because of winter hardiness issue.

I am not good at winter-protecting. This one is well-wrapped this year since it is small and easy to do at this point.

Nikita's Gift is what I was leaning towards but if making it survive is a challenge maybe it isn't worth it. There is currently a crepe myrtle in the location I want to plant the tree. The crepe myrtles near the foundation of the house survive but the one in this spot dies to the ground every couple years.

I just planted a Redhaven peach nearby and the near zero Fahrenheit temperatures right now are making me nervous.

Another interest of mine are butterflies and moths. Native persimmons appear to attract luna moths and regal moths which are unbelievably beautiful. Anyone with American persimmons notice these moths around?

Is planting a native persimmon more easier than oriental or hybrid persimmons? Especially in terms of winter hardiness?

I'm in zone 7a so I can't speak from personal experience, however, I believe I've seen some nurseries rate some American persimmon varieties to zone 5. I know some guys have some growing in zone 4 that are surviving but with some winter die back.

I have a lot of native American persimmons growing wild on my pine farm. They are the 60 chromosome southern persimmon. I've grafted many varieties to them. In fact, thanks to Tony, I have some NG scions in transit right now that I'll be bench grafting to some seedlings I'm growing indoors next week.

At any rate, I have not seen luna moths on the trees specifically but I haven't looked for them either. However, I've got a bug zapper near my trailer and I often seen luna moths sitting on the outside of it in the morning.

NJG,

If you really want to pick one with cold hardiness and self-fruitful. I would pick the proven Rossyanka (-20F here in Omaha, NE and IN). The second choice is Prok.

Tony

Tony,
Can you provide a review/opinion on the fruit of Rossyanka and Prok?
I think I'm going to go with one of those because I don't want to deal with the tree dying because of cold weather especially with this trend of polar vortex (weakened jet stream).
Thanks!

Rossyanka is real good and sweet with a thicker pulp. the taste is more of Kaki and tiny blend of American persimmon. Rossyanka tastes best when the fruit had some wrinkles on the skin. Prok is large and I consider it one of the best tasting American persimmon ( some call it hybrid, but the leaves doesn't look like Kaki at all). You can't go wrong with either.

Tony

NJgrower, if you're looking for a tree that's most likely to survive and succeed for you, I'd be careful about also considering what kind of rootstock you tree is grafted to. You could, for example, buy a hardy tree grafted on a less hardy rootstock, and that's a possibility with some nurseries, which might be fine for the parts of the country where they're located but could be a problem for NJ.

I agree with Tony that Rosseyanka and Prok are both good persimmons, but if I had to choose one, it would be Prok. What stands out about Prok IMO is the texture of the fruit which is somewhat gelatinous and the best I've tried among a number of varieties of American persimmon. Flavor is also right up there. Even the seeds are smooth and separate easily from the flesh for good eating. The tree is likely to be more productive than Rosseyanka and ripens months earlier. The fruit is even a little bigger.

Rosseyanka has a mealy texture and can be very sweet; it's really in a class of its own IMO, not so reminiscent of either virginiana or kaki. It hangs on the tree well into early winter and can still be enjoyed picked fresh from the tree when nothing else is available. It dries well though not as well as some kakis. I have my trees on various virginiana rootstocks and they all exhibit this early season leaf distortion and blossom loss that maybe is some sign of graft incompatibility.

Creekweb,
Prok sounds a lot like my Garretson. It's early, productive and tasty. I have Szukis to pollinate it. I also have Early Golden which I also like.

I like Meader better than any Asian persimmon. THe Americans just have a more distinctive flavor. Bland and sweet is not good enough for me, but some prefer that. However, Meader is probably the most brittle of all persimmons, and so is easy to break. I like EG and Garretson more than Meader, but I still like Meader. If I could only plant one tree, it'd probably be Meader.

I agree that persimmons grow so slowly that ultimate height is not an issue. There's this thing called pruning.
:)
JOhn S
PDX OR

Does anyone know if Prok is truly self pollinating as some nurseries state? Seems pretty uncommon for American selections. Szukis produces male flowers, so how does Prok self pollinate?

And is there any evidence that it's a hybrid as I saw suggested on some old NAFEX posts? If so, that could explain the self pollinating.

Ampersand, my understanding is that there are two distinct alternatives to regular cross-pollination. One is self-pollination where a plant has both male and female flowers parts and accepts its own pollen. The other is setting fruit in the absence of pollination. The second option, as far as I understand it, would either result in seedless fruit or fruit with seeds that aren't viable (although I know there are at least some exceptions in fruit, notably citrus.)

skyjs,

That's the first I've heard somebody speak positively of Meader in a while. Most of what I've read is that its main claim to fame was setting fruit without pollination, and even that was contested (some thought it depended on climate, or chestnut pollen).

Does anybody know about the pollination requirements of Prok and 100-46? This is pretty important to me, since I don't have any other trees nearby, and would actually prefer non-pollinated, and therefore seedless, fruits.

I am fairly set on getting the Prok persimmon now. Most likely from stark bros because I've had success with them. I suppose if I could get a larger bareroot tree from the nurseries mentioned in this thread I would consider them too.

Tjasko,

I don't know 100-46 based off what I've been reading.

My understanding is Prok and Yates are "self-pollinating" because they interpret fine particles as pollination and grow seedless fruit. Meader, Szukis, Early Golden (?) have both male and female flowers so they actually self pollinate.

I suppose whatever variety most dependably yields fruit is what will be the deciding factor between Prok and 100-46? Maybe the question you should really be asking is what type of pollination is most reliable?

This post was edited by NJgrower on Mon, Jan 12, 15 at 9:25

I have talked with Jerry Jehman at length six years ago about Prok being self fruitful. He told me Prok will produce seedless fruit without the male counterpart. My Prok produced seedless fruit even before I grafted a male flower persimmon called Szukis so I do some D. Virginiana crosses.

Tony

I am planning on putting in 2 trees. I don't really want to "waste" a spot on a male tree, but I really, really don't want to waste a few years wondering why my flowering persimmons aren't producing for me. If I have to make the choice, I'll get a Szukis or one of the other hermaphrodites.

Tjasko,

Prok is the only tree that you need. Mine produced fruit without a male. Szukis fruit is so tiny and it is not as tasty as Prok..

Tony

Tjasko,

Maybe look into Early Golden or Yates? IMO damn shame to plant the same variety when you have space for two! There is a thread in the search history of Fruits and Orchards in which someone rated: 1. Early Golden, 2. Prok, and 3. Yates.

Though information is hard to come by for these things (and often contradictory), from what I've gathered, 100-46 is a descendant of Early Golden. I assume this means that it is better in some way, so I'd rather go with it.

I'm pretty well settled on planting a Prok. It's the other tree that I haven't decided on yet.

(I also have woods, and I've considered getting a cheap bundle of seedlings to toss in there too, but I know that wouldn't bear fruit for a good decade, and I'm not sure I actually want to make my fruit seeded.)

Maybe Tony is best for this.

Question regarding D. virginiana rootstock. How bad are the suckers? I didn't really consider the potential for persimmon clonal colonies until now.

Also what types of spraying do you do for persimmons?

NJ

I got 12 Kakis and D.V in ground. Two out of the 12 sucker real bad. I think the reason for these two to sucker because I top worked real low about 7 inches from the base of the trees to get some real low branches for grafting and that initiated suckering. One of the tree send a sucker 15 feet away from it. In regard to spraying, persimmon does not need spraying. The only pet that really bother the Kaki persimmon is the Japanese beetles. They loved to chew on the leaves of Asian persimmon.

Tony

Tony,
Basically as long as I don't attempt to bark graft or super aggressive pruning the tree I shouldn't get suckers? How difficult is removing the suckers?

Tony,
Basically as long as I don't attempt to bark graft or super aggressive pruning the tree I shouldn't get suckers? How difficult is removing the suckers?

NJ
I dont't think bark graft is the problem because I multi grafted a lot of those tree. The two that I headed off too low to the base that triggered suckering. I used the shovel to remove the suckers without any problem. Spring pruning of cross branches should not be a problem.

Tony

Hi NJ Grower,

I recently came across this old (but great) thread. Was wondering if you wanted to chat about persimmons and compare notes on growing in our zone? (I'm in 6b, too - near Princeton University.)

-boston701@yahoo.com