According to your own definition about plastics you just posted a non-organic link. Maybe it's too difficult for me to grasp, though.

Just saying...

Delete

This post was edited by fireweed22 on Sun, Jan 4, 15 at 17:38

kimmsr,
Thanks for posting the video link. You've hit upon something that I feel quite passionately about. I found it interesting to see the work going on. In our area, we have a similar group which has really made a difference in the community as well. They raise quite a few thousand seedlings each spring for funding, and are also a food pantry type source to feed the immigrant families who have move in recently. The greenhouses in the middle of the city are inspirational, and having animals there is an eye-catching contrast to the neighborhood. I'm hoping someday to help them start selling worm colonies for those who want to vermicompost. (The tubs would be already filled with worms and bedding, and starter food; no need to set up anything: just add waste.) There are other low-tech operations co-located which aim to provide employment and connection to the community. There is a real community spirit about the whole operation, and people are doing more than just growing things together: they are providing a strong support structure for those facing some of the challenges of life. There is even a small clinic associated with the group. I hope in the near future to be providing some specialty items that might be grown and sold, including lemon grass. This is an area where people know lemon grass and other specialty items, and will appreciate being able to get starts to grow outside during the summer. If it is even available in a regular grocery, lemon grass tends to be quite pricy and not really fresh. Years ago, I would visit a similar program in Ann Arbor which was aimed at keeping high school students in school, in part by giving them some employment that did not severely impinge on study time, as well as providing some great life coaching. I believe that program eventually closed because of funding difficulties; there were empty structures left which I thought were dieing to be filled, but no one to lead the charge and do it. I've visited a number of other similar programs around the country. For those who find gardening fun, and want to share their enthusiasm for it with others, this is a marvelous opportunity. If there is not such an effort in your community, and you are interested, a number of the ongoing efforts help people with advice and planning.
Renais

Did you understand that they grow all of that organically and do not use any synthetics?

But PLASTIC pots and PLASTIC watering systems., and PLASTIC shade cloth and PLASTIC greenhouse covers.
Plastic mulch? Not organic.
Plastic water pipe? Not organic, either.
Both are made of non renewable resources.

You are right that plastic is not organic and is made from non renewable resource s, but who, beside yourself and NC, said they could not be used in gardens?

Really? You have no idea where those jokes about plastic are coming from.

" who, beside yourself and NC, said they could not be used in gardens?

Uh ... you did, in another thread. the one about plastic drip. Remember?

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/organic/msg0120201614755.html?22

I read a bit more about the Will Allen operations. It looks like he has expanded operations to include about 200 acres of farm, as well as several urban sites. What an energetic man; his enthusiasm has helped inspire those around him as well. They have done a good job engaging the community with the composting and seedling plantings. Do they sell seedlings as well as produce?
Renais

Chicago currently employs 14 full-time staff and 2 part-time staff, as well as providing a stipend for over 300 teens annually.

300 teens making way below burger-flipping wage. Their pay is so far under minimum wage it's ludicrous. They'd never make it if they tried to pay a real living wage ... like Salatin's farm, it's subsidized by cut-rate labor.

Here's the intern program:
$100 per week, paid bi-weekly (for 60-hour weeks) = $1.66 an hour!!!!
Room and board, security deposit required

I haven't made $1.66 an hour since I was a hotel maid in the 1960s!

And they recruit lots of volunteers too, which real farms can't do.

lazygardens, I don't find the reference you seem to think I made in the linked post.

Here ...
RE: Can plasticulture be organic?
Posted by kimmsr 4a/5b-MI (My Page) on
Sat, Jan 3, 15 at 6:21

Plastic mulch? Not organic.
Plastic water pipe? Not organic, either.
Both are made of non renewable resources.

Unfortunately the only way this system of gardening/farming is through subsidies from the gov't.
Organic farming is way to labor intensive to be profitable so teaching the teens how to garden themselves is the long term benefit of this project.

"RE: Can plasticulture be organic?
Posted by kimmsr 4a/5b-MI (My Page) on
Sat, Jan 3, 15 at 6:21
Plastic mulch? Not organic.
Plastic water pipe? Not organic, either.
Both are made of non renewable resources"

Where does it say what you think it says, lazygarden?

maplerbirch: "Organic farming is way to labor intensive to be profitable so teaching the teens how to garden themselves is the long term benefit of this project. " This is an almost accurate way of describing the small operations like the Will Allen one that I've seen. The only thing I would change is that it teaches not only teens, but also younger children and adults to garden as well.

The pay lazygardens mentions above is actually generous compared to some of our local projects. They rely on total volunteer labor, or a labor force being paid only a few dollars per week, plus some of the food produced. The compensation is well under minimum wage. However, the goal is NOT to make money, or to gainfully employ people. The goal really is to engage people in food growing, and community development. The government as well as private donors and volunteer laborers are providing the support. These are just not bottom line profit ventures. They certainly would not fit a commercial model of a successful agricultural enterprise.

The Will Allen video reminded me very much of a wonderful lady I corresponded with quite a bit when I was planning an organic greenhouse. She has had an organic farming operation for quite a few years, and makes enough to supplement a small outside income to be comfortable. One of the keys to her success is that she is able to induce college age students to work at her farm for the summer as interns, even paying her for the opportunity. She provides any food they want from the farm production, and has a place to stay (a yurt with no plumbing, electricity or heat). In return, the interns work very hard all summer, hopefully learning some of her practices. Without this labor and funds input, her organic farm would not exist.
Renais

That kind of pay is standard for WOOFing, or even less. But it's mostly college kids who want to be doing that, not mexican kids getting exposed to nasty chemicals and having to do it to help their parents pay bills.

None of the above scenarios are acceptable, IMO.

If "sustainable" agriculture is to be adapted world wide in order to "Save the Planet", then we need to do better than saying "At least we don't have illegal immigrants working with nasty chemicals."

I believe that sustainable anything, needs to be sustainable in reality. :)

I think that many comments here indicate some missed the fact that Growing Power is a school that teaches many people how to grow food. Most all of the "workers" there are students learning the how's of gardening.

Here in San Diego county, the manufacturers of PVC pipe for irrigation use 100% recycled material and also recycle all of the scrap shavings from their operations. I don't know how it is in the rest of the world. I do know that agriculture here requires some form of irrigation pipe: our average annual rainfall is 7" (last year 4.5") and average humidity is 60%. San Diego county boasts the largest number of small farms per county in the U.S.

Using irrigation, means using lots and lots of man-made energy, man made materials and technologies.
The word sustainable, continues to fit in where ever people want it to. I would like to be able to understand what it means to Save the Planet in clear concise terms.

When a word like, sustainable, has so many different meanings it loses all meaning, then it becomes a problem in accurate discussion or explanation.
Is it safe to eat food from an urban garden? It seems to me that polluted urban soil would not be considered sustainable, but perhaps that is all wrong too...

About 2/3 of the world's agriculture is under irrigation and a similar proportion of the world population is dependent on it. If we were to insist on all agriculture being "sustainable" by the definition used by some writers here, then we would have to also accept a massive culling of the world human population.

Good point Hermitan, To me keeping the water cycle as clean as possible would be the correct definition of "sustainable".

Today's world looks at water usage as though it disappears into a black hole if you use it.