Oven Questions: Are Wolf Ovens (L / M series) really problem free these days with regard to the chipping enamel?

I don't think the M series is out yet. L series and E series are not problem free and should be avoided.

Refrigerator Questions: Same old questions here...if Sub-Zero isn't worth the price, are any of the others priced at 8K plus worth their cost? Felt the KitchenAid I looked at in our showroom here was not as solid (remember, family of 6 + kids' friends = LOTS of use and abuse).

Whether it's worth the price or not is a personal decision. You will have to be the judge of how solid it needs to be to stand up to your family's use. Liebherr has 48" side by sides as well. You might also want to look at JennAir, it is made by Whirlpool like KitchenAid is, but it is their higher end brand so you might like it better. SZ is usually considered the best quality out of all those.

Gas Cooktop: Felt confident about selecting Wolf for this appliance and what I would use it for. Any reason why I would change this if I select a non-Wolf brand oven?

I wouldn't let your oven choice influence the cooktop, matching is stupid. I would try out an open burner cooktop before making your final decision. Bluestar makes one. You could also consider rangetops, in which case the Capital Culinarian would be an option. They may not be for you, but some people on this forum (myself included) like the way they perform better than sealed burners like Wolf.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Tue, Jan 13, 15 at 13:26

Your cooking appliances will make the biggest difference to your cooking and your enjoyment thereof. You can make anything work, but you shouldn't have to work at it if you have the budget for better (which it seems you do). Unfortunately, as I understand it, Wolf makes fantastic ovens but still doesn't have the enamel problem fixed. If you're fine without using the self clean, there's no problem.

Gaggenau (which I have) doesn't have that problem. If there's a Thermador (or Bosch) service, they can probably do Gaggenau, but if there isn't good service near you, I don't think it would be a great choice. Mine have been issue free for five years, but that doesn't mean that nothing could happen. Sometimes something shakes loose during shipping. Sometimes a power surge takes out a control board. I tried dehydrating something in the Gaggenau once (actually rescuing something that had been started elsewhere) and I remember thinking it wasn't great at handling the moisture. That could have been caused by my messed up project however.

I think the best question is what kind of oven did you use to do all those things previously? And can you get another one of that kind of oven? The food, bread, candy, etc., should be no trouble in any oven, but the dehydrating could be the kicker. If the oven holds in the steam because it's better sealed it'll make nicer roasts. Maybe the trick is to go for a less expensive oven and a dehydrator?

If you're the kind of person who thinks a SubZero (or Miele) is worth the money, then it is. If you're the kind of person who thinks it's a ridiculous amount of money to pay for a fridge, then it is. Food stays a little fresher, but how long do you really want to keep it anyway? Things don't freeze in the corners, but lower priced fridges have gotten better about that. They've also gotten the dual compressors/evaporators at a lower price. Is SubZero sturdier? Probably. Will it look newer longer? Probably. Will the one from the next rung down still hold up pretty well? Probably. The fact is, other brands have raised their games, so the differences aren't as glaring as the price difference. They're still there, but only worth it if you think they're worth it to you.

If you want a good residential gas cooktop or rangetop, there's nothing wrong with Wolf. A lot of people here prefer higher powered burners and open grates--that's in rangetops rather than cooktops. If you wok, you certainly might want more powerful burners. Some people never miss them. A lot of people are stuck on the nuances of burner design, but, like with the fridges, it's a marginal difference, and one that might not bother you either way. There are star shaped burners, dual stacked burners like Wolf's, double and triple rings like some of the Euro models, etc. Each version heats the pan a little differently, but all cook just fine. If you start getting power hungry, remember you'll also want to be able to simmer.

Have you looked at induction? If you have a reliable electrical supply, it might interest you.

If you're fine without using the self clean, there's no problem.

I don't think that's necessarily true. I've read at least one case of chipping with no clean and I think there might be more. :(

We have had our L-Series single wall oven (30") for about 2 years now. Have never done a self-clean, don't plan on it either and so far (knock on wood) no chipping.

We love our Bluestar range top, but seriously considered the Wolf cook top. I just didn't like how the stainless steel looked after cleaning over time. We got to see this at the showroom during the Wolf cooking demo. I know that is probably on the harsh side, but still love our BS now and the ease of cleaning it.

We looked at SZ for a fridge, but couldn't justify the extra money for our budget. Is it better, as has been said, probably, but is is $5,000 better than the next step down, probably not. We ended up with Libherr, which has good and bad reviews. We love ours and are happy with our choice. We went with the SBS-24i1 which are 24" side-by-side units, here is a link, though I don't think they make this model any longer:

http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/SBS24I1.html

We use the dehydrate feature on our L-Series often, my wife loves to dehydrate Kale, and it does a great job. We don't prop the door open, though now I am going to re-read the directions to see if we need to do that. It has never been a problem for that. We also did pumpkin seeds this year and they were the best we ever had.

Phil

I have a Miele oven now for 8 years. I'm also an oven cook and I love it. It has dehydrate and 2 proof settings.

No chipping issues inside.

At one point there were temperature problems with Miele ovens that have been resolved.

This oven has combi heat so it's possible to start something like a turkey in a cold oven and have it come out on time. I do some baking, especially yeast breads, and have had superb results with a stone on the bottom rack at 550 F. My oven also has good recovery time.

Also just replaced a built in refrigerator, also with a Miele. It's only a few months old but there's a huge difference. It keeps fruit and vegetables for a very long time. My lettuce used to be gone in 3 days.

If the descriptions resonate you might take a look.

M Series ovens are out as I just talked to wolf showroom this week and will be visiting them over the weekend and the salesperson just couldn't stop gushing about how beautiful they looked(already bought wolf range with him for under construction house) if i like it will switch E with M(builder gave that option)

>M Series ovens are out as I just talked to wolf showroom this week and will be visiting them over the weekend and the salesperson just couldn't stop gushing about how beautiful they looked

In that case Wolf needs to update their website which still says "Available Spring 2015." Sure doesn't feel like spring where I live, LOL.

Oops, after looking at the website more carefully, it only says Spring 2015 for the double Professional and Transitional series. The singles from those series look to be available now. It says the Contemporary series, both single and double will be available this summer.

Thanks everyone! The comments corroborate where my thinking has been heading over the past few weeks and validate my reasoning to look beyond our little metropolis. This process has me missing my hometown of Houston where I feel confident I could find most brands.

hvtech42: I was in one of our local showrooms and saw 2 of the Ms today. They are pretty, but I didn't suddenly feel overcome with the urge to say, emphatically, they are "the one". I was also able to see the Bosch Benchmark which Yale Appliance talks positively about on their blog. Not sure about that one, either. And, yes, I shouldn't try to be matchy-matchy...that might be a bit of a challenge for my brain until I find what I'm really looking for. Then I think a lot of things will feel more clear, including being ok with different brands for different cooking functions. And, yes, I'm planning to look at both BlueStar and Capital rangetops. I sometimes cringe at the thought of cleaning open burners, but have read Capital's info and it at least sounds do-able.

wolverine82: yes, the Ms are beautiful!

plllog: I appreciate the positives about the Gaggenau. It is the one I am most curious to see in person. We do have good service here for a variety of brands such as Thermador, but Wolf is the premier brand. One of the stores sells 42 different brands, but only has about 6 on display...of course, the 6 most popular. Many years ago I considered a countertop dehydrator. However, the ones with good capacity and features range from $500-$1000 and are BIG (like 17x20x17). They would require much storage space and countertop space, two things I'm not interested in sacrificing. The oven has been my best option for dehydrating over the past 7 years. The thing that makes the last 3 ovens imperfect is the time it takes...48 hours plus for nuts. By the way, I think I can hear my teenage daughter saying all of these are "first world problems". Anything would suffice, really. Re: refrigerators, you echo my thoughts about produce. By the time It's a week old the nutrients are gone so why bother trying to keep it looking good.

Phil: thanks for the positives about Wolf and the Liebherr refrigerator. When I need to prop open the door to maintain a lower temperature, I just use a wooden spoon, lol. That's what made the Wolf kit seem a bit, um, unique. "The Wolf accessory dehydration kit (not included with the oven) is required; it contains dehydration racks and a rubber stopper to hold the door open the proper amount to let the moisture out of the oven."

rococogurl: which model Miele do you have? I see 6000 series on their website and a 4000 series which they show as discontinued but still available (I received a quote on a 4000 series double oven today). The Miele is also on my short list of ovens to see in person.

I'm intrigued by Blue Star adding electric, but their timing this year is vague, at best. American Range seems cool, but service would certainly be an issue here if people in larger cities find it challenging (from other posts on this site).

Again, I appreciate everyone's time. I'll keep you posted as I complete the decision making process. And, if anyone else has something to add, I'm all ears for another week-ish until I have to commit.

Take care!

Re dehydrating, from what Grainlady has said in the Cooking Forum, I do think a dedicated appliance would do a better job, but remember, it doesn't have to be in the kitchen. :) It could be in a utility room, for instance, or a pantry or something. The time for dehydrating is the same no matter what. I'd think a dehydrator, if anything, would take less time because it would have better airflow.

Propping the door open is one way to deal with the airflow. :) If you want me to do a test run of something in the Gaggenau, let me know.

Rhome410 preferred her Wolf to the Gaggenau that replaced it, but the Wolf had the enamel problem. I love mine. :)

srig6 - I have the 4880B which continues to be excellent.

Yep, I had the porcelain problem with our without using self-clean, so hopefully Wolf's M redesign will solve the issue. Don't get an E.

I do love the porcelain and the self-clean in the Gagg, it just doesn't bake as evenly things did in the Wolf. My daughter does a slow drying/baking of an all-nut granola that takes 24 hours. That's the only thing we've tried to dry yet. The biggest problem with that is the ovens turned completely off about 21 hours into the last batch. I had to turn off the breaker for a bit, then back on to 'wake them up' again. Not sure what that was about, but it does make me nervous. Anyway, overall, I got mine for a great (floor model) price, and am not convinced they were worth that price, much less the full retail. I have a limited budget and expect a lot for a lot of money.

The new Bosch looks awesome, but I am usually leery of untried new models. I don't feel the same about Wolf, because they test their technology more extensively and have such a proven track record. IF they could only get the porcelain thing right.

Miele still sounds good, and even though I think it's one of the least attractive looking ovens out there (just personal opinion), the Electrolux seems to be hanging in there as a very good value in performance and durability since they quickly fixed and got past electronics issues in the 2009 models. I'm a bit of a snob when it comes to such things, so wish they'd quit putting things on their cooking appliances like Perfect Turkey and chicken nugget options... ;-)

I agree on the "Cluck Nuggets", but not so much on the perfect turkey.
We have seen a number of very positive posts about folks that used the perfect turkey.

My Elux oven is too old to have that feature, but as I and the wife get older, and our eyes and nose senses, welllll, (not what they used to be), I can seeing the "Perfect Turkey Feature" "Saving the day", or at least the turkey, Ya thinks?

Gary

I just don't think a once-a-year dinner (at most for me), cheapest meat on the market, deserves a special mode in the oven! ;-) I know that people place great importance on that once or twice a year turkey, but Safeway's 2-hour Turkey recipe is good enough for me. Roasting a turkey isn't rocket science, and with a probe (a must-have in an oven, in my book) is too easy. But this is just my opinion. If the oven manufacturer wants to help me, do it on something that requires a more delicate touch/is more finicky. As I said, I know it was a snobby (and, will add, trivial) thing to worry about!

But I'm not a fan of set tricks in the oven. Something I really like about the Gagg, and because someone here shared a chart on the fan and element uses of different modes in the Wolf, I have been able to select the elements and fans I choose to use to get the result I want. I don't always like the result I get with what the manufacturer recommends, and want more information and control than something like a 'perfect turkey' button gives me. But I will be happy for those who are happy to have it!

I have Perfect Turkey on my range. I have never used it. I'm sure it turns out great results, just like the Chicken Nuggets button probably does on the Frigidaire version. Its presence doesn't bother me, but I think it's a gimmick. I'm pretty sure it's just convection roast at a specific temperature with a specific probe setpoint, both of which anyone could easily figure out on their own.

I am also interested in purchasing the Wolf M series professional and was very disappointed to see that it is offered in only 30 inches. I need a 27 inch built in. I could settle and get the 27 inch M Transitional. I wonder if Wolf will come out with a 27 inch soon.

I have selected the Wolf all gas range as well. This way I'll have an electric and gas oven to choose from when cooking certain items.

I need a 27 inch built in. I could settle and get the 27 inch M Transitional. I wonder if Wolf will come out with a 27 inch soon.

The 27" M transitional is not coming out until 2016.

Just a quick update. I traveled to our closest large city and was able to go to two stores where I saw both the Miele and Gaggenau ovens, more Wolf M series ovens, as well as a BlueStar range. The Gaggenau oven is beautiful! By far the nicest looking one and the push button door open is very convenient. However, the sales person could not show me how to use the computer and I was unable to figure out how to turn it on myself after playing with it so decided that was out simply based on the time it would take to master the control panel. I had been leaning toward Miele to begin with and was confirmed in that after being able to see and touch one. I will be ordering the H6780 BP2.
The cooktop was a much more challenging decision as I am limited on space so can't go very big, but as a family of 6 I want more space than a traditional drop-in cooktop can offer. Open burner vs. closed burner was one I really did wrestle with. I LOVE the idea of the options an open burner rangetop would offer. However, within a week of going on my trip, I watched my 9 year old make a bbq sandwich on top of the stove with meat dribbling down into the well of our old electric cooktop. Within days of that, the same child served rice out of a pot and lots of that was strewn onto the burner and into the well of the area next to the pot. As I thought about our current family configuration I decided I just can't bring myself to purchase an open burner rangetop. With a teenager that boils over most of what she makes (leaving things unattended while texting / cooking), another teenager that splashes items outside of the pan while cooking, the aforementioned 9 year old and a 5 year old bringing up the end, it is just not prudent. I believe I would spend more time cleaning it than cooking on it :-)
Regarding refrigerators, I was able to see many more brands including a Liebherr. I had been drawn to that brand, regardless of the mixed reviews, based on the 48" model with option to have 3 segments which would include a separate door exclusively for produce (BioFresh). The bins in the freezer are also attractive vs. wire shelves or wire baskets. It seems to offer a level of organization that would be beneficial to our busy family. Plus, with two additional full-size freezers already, I don't require a large amount of freezer space within my kitchen.
After things are installed and in use, I will provide an update on my usage experience...likely summer / fall.
Thanks again for your time and input!

I was unable to figure out how to turn it on myself after playing with it so decided that was out simply based on the time it would take to master the control panel

I'm surprised you thought this, in my opinion Gaggenau is one of the easiest to use ovens out there. Twist the left knob to the mode you want, then set the temperature with the right knob. As opposed to Miele where you navigate through onscreen menus. Perhaps the Gagg in the showroom was disconnected or in demo mode? You made a good choice though, both ovens are excellent quality and great performers.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Wed, Jan 28, 15 at 20:06

Appreciate your feedback. Attached is the control panel I played with. Turned knob to furthest selection on right. Got the temperature part, but all of the other choices were mystefying...chef's hat...book...upon selecting one or the other a selection of capital letters / numbers appeared (guess these are for programming one's own favorites). Anyway, it wasn't clear how to get to any special functions such as dehydrate, proof, etc. I guess at my current life stage, I'm not willing to spend the extra time to figure something out...it's either intuitive or it's not...kind of like Windows vs. Mac ;-)
Take care.