Are you still thinking about remodeling your existing bay window to be a desk with storage underneath, as we discussed in in this previous thread?

If you did that, would you even need a separate table day-to-day? You could have a folding one to set up when you guests over, but the rest of the time, you could just enjoy a bit more space in your home and/or perhaps install a closet directly across from the stairs. It'd help visually separate your kitchen from your living room, and you could really use the storage.

Jillius - the bay window seat idea is a maybe for the future. Since I often host couples on Airbnb, and provide a (do it yourself) breakfast, I do need a place that at least two people can sit on a regular basis, and I sometimes pull up a LR chair to join them if the chemistry is right.

That said, I LOVE the idea of a closet across from the stairs, both in terms of separating the LR from the basement, and storage. Especially given the state of my basement stairwell:

I wonder if I could get away with a 30" round (pictured is 36"), for three people, back near the micro/sliding glass door, and go for the closet, too...

Ok carrieb. Thanks for clarifying.

Funckycamper & Jillius - I meant to add that I tested my counter depth (25", plus the peninsula where I can stand on the end) and the current depth is really about as deep as is comfortable for reaching. As mentioned, I could make them deeper to line up pretty, but not often used things against the wall, and it's not so deep that wiping/dusting every so often would be difficult, but I don't know that it would be worth it to me in terms of expense & space. Possible exception would be the microwave alcove, since there I could make the counter line up with the CD fridge & pantry - but that is space that is at risk for accumulating clutter, I think.

Rather than a CD refrigerator, is there room to place a full sized refrigerator in the niche where the microwave is shown? It seems a shame to waste that deep space on a microwave. Standard microwaves are only 16" deep. Why not flip the pantry to that location and put an oversized, extra deep pantry in there?

Also, my KD insisted that I put in 13" deep upper cabinets based on the size of my dinner plates. She said that many people found they couldn't close the door if their plates were too big.

HomeChef - Those are all possibilities, and it's an area that I've been struggling with. You're suggesting I put either the fridge or the pantry in the alcove, right?

The alcove is only 78" tall (by 36" wide) and my thinking was that I couldn't fit a tall (88" is the tallest that IKEA sells) pantry in there. I could put a regular fridge in there - but then I don't think I could put (again, stock/RTA) an over fridge cabinet in that space. Also, since the space is 36" wide, I think I'd have to find a 36" wide (or slightly narrower) fridge to make good use of the space - does that make sense? Is 36" (or 34 or 35") a standard width for a fridge?

Because of that alcove, it's the one part of the kitchen that's made me really wish I had a budget for custom cabinetry.

Current range cubby:

How deep is the current cab above the fridge? I seem to remember the wall to the right can be completely removed, but it that whole wall usable for cabinetry up to the basement door? How deep is the alcove? I absolutely recommend deep counters. In fact I just spend the $$$ I should have originally and had my cabs pulled out 3.5" from the wall. In a small kitchen I gained a square foot in my prep space!

Clueless - above fridge cabinet is 27" deep & to the ceiling. Yes, the wall to the right of the fridge (we think) can be removed and, yes, I think that entire wall up to the basement wall is usable for cabinetry. The alcove is 8" deep.

I'm not much of a cook, so storage is going to more of a priority for me than prep space. And pleasant & convenient seating, albeit not for many people.

With those measurements, it sounds like that space was originally a refrigerator niche. The unit just slides in. A 36" refrigerator is really 35.5" or 35.75". The height of my refrigerator is 72". A piece of trim could be placed above the refrigerator to make the space look built in. The only thing you would have to consider is door swing. If it's a problem, a bottom freezer unit rather than a French door or side by side could be a solution.

You said earlier that you were considering IKEA cabinets. For that kind of money, consider RTA cabinets from Barker's Cabinets or Scherr's. This way, you can get custom sizes. Once you get your plan closer to final, go play at Barker's website with their cabinet designs. It's very user friendly. With Scherr's you will need a written design with dimensions. It doesn't have to be fancy, just clear. They will put the quote together for you. I'm saving 40 to 50% on my cabinets going this route. If you go with stock sizes, you can do the IKEA boxes with Barker's or Scherr's doors, too.

Thanks, HomeChef - at least, according to the pros I've had look at my space, the "niche" was created because space above & to its left got bumped out for pipes & such - the niche is more in line with the dimensions of the LR, for example.

I was planning on a single door/freezer on the bottom - I don't really like French door fridges for my purposes anyway, and I definitely do not need a large fridge.

Are Barker's & Scherr's comparable to IKEA in price? I always assumed they'd be significantly more expensive. I also considered using Scherr's (or Semihandmade, etc) doors, but thought the cost would be prohibitive for me.

So, what did you learn from your Building Department? Will you be allowed to combine the lots and change the building facade?

Live_wire_oak - I posted in that thread that I'm (or, normally, the contractor) required to submit the plans for approval, at which point they will be denied, and further instructions - for submitting for a variance, will be provided.

This never got answered in the other thread and I am still curious, the building has that bay window all ready. Doesn't that impact the vacant lot now?

clueless - yeah, the bay window definitely impacts the lot next door.

Here's the story (as best as I can recall.) Some 10 (15?) years ago I decided I wanted a window looking out at the garden (there were previously no openings on that side of the house, though there was a big air conditioning unit sitting alongside the house on that side, and there was-and still is - a garden spigot coming out of the house into the side yard.)

I talked to a friend (who I am no longer in touch with) whose husband is a contractor. The husband said sure, he'd do the job. Here, my memory is fuzzy but he may have said "you want us to pull permits?" And I may have said "huh? Permit?" and he may have said "eh, we don't need to worry about that" and I may have said "oh, ok."

So, putting in a new window on that side may just open up a big can of worms... The window is a best case scenario thing. If I can't do the window, well, then I can't do the window.

This post was edited by carrieb on Sat, Dec 27, 14 at 16:36

If you can't have windows on that side, what about something like this? If door is also not possible, just disregard :)
{{gwi:2141157}}From Kitchen plans

Lavendar_lass - I think (but don't know, but can't imagine it isn't so) that a door is, if anything, a bigger issue than a window. A window, at least, could be sealed up without impacting anything else. Sealing up a door would require putting in a new door...

Deleted

This post was edited by Jillius on Sun, Dec 28, 14 at 16:55

Jillius: I love you.

Hahaha

Jillius - question. You say the window will be hidden under the drywall. That's from the inside and that's assuming the inspector doesn't happen to go out into the yard, or even to look up as he's walking down the street towards my house, right? I'm thinking it would be visible from outdoors...

Here, this video would probably help you understand.

Those guys are doing a door, rather than a window, but the technique is the same.

Your wall, simplistically, is constructed of wood framing. On the inside, drywall is against on the wood framing. On the outside, brick is against the wood framing.

At rough-in inspection, you will show your inspector your new plumbing and electrical, and your framing that will look like this:

{{gwi:2141158}}

That is what normal wall framing looks like. There are studs (the vertical pieces of wood) running floor to ceiling every 16 inches.

If you want a door or a window to be in your wall, you have to reconfigure your framing so there is a big open rectangle in your framing for the window or door to go in.

Like this:
{{gwi:2141159}}
{{gwi:2141160}}

This post was edited by Jillius on Sun, Dec 28, 14 at 17:00

Jillius - I can't thank you enough. I watched the video before reading the rest of your post & looking at the diagrams. I now understand what framing means in this context. Genius.

May I say that I love you, still and once again?

Well, clearly. Our love is eternal.

Deleted

This post was edited by Jillius on Sun, Dec 28, 14 at 17:02

Thank you, Jillius. All really good advice.

When the KD initially proposed (and drew plans for) both a window and a door on that wall, we did have a structural engineer sign off on the plans & I have the engineer's plans (or whatever they're called) for the door & window as well.

Engineer came here & looked at the walls throughout the house as well as going outside & into the basement. So, presumably, at least she believed the house to be structurally sound enough to withstand the openings - assuming job is done right.

This post was edited by carrieb on Sun, Dec 28, 14 at 8:57

Here's a revised layout, taking some of the suggestions posted here. Mainly: switched range & sink/window, put trash pullout under microwave on short wall, and moved fridge back to the corner & got a bigger, non counter-depth fridge.

My only hesitation with putting the fridge back in that corner is that I think it pretty much means that any table can't really fit back there. Plus, I really don't need such a big fridge (my current 15.5 cu ft. total is generally half full.)

At the top of the photo, you can see where I cut out a whole bunch of different size/shape tables to move around (the 25" x 40" is my current table.)

I've also attached a couple screen shots from IKEA's planner.

{{gwi:2141161}}

{{gwi:2141162}}

{{gwi:2141163}}

Sorry, but I have to speak up here. Advising someone as to how to skirt the inspection and permitting requirements is unethical behavior, even for an amateur designer. If a professional were to give similar poor advice about skirting a legal building requirement, they could be stripped of their certifications and licenses. To do so as an amateur is equally foolish. It opens you up to personal liability to make such a suggestion. Please do not make suggestions that encourage illegal behavior. Most especially involving a multi family dwelling where more than the OP's safety is at risk.

This is NOT a multifamily dwelling - it is a house, where I live alone. Point taken on the rest of your admonishments.

Would love any additional layout suggestions!

This post was edited by carrieb on Sun, Dec 28, 14 at 12:52

It's a single family home? Not a rowhouse? I thought that all of the permitting difficuties arose from it being a rowhouse?

It is a row house, which is not a unit in a multifamily dwelling. The side in question is not attached to any other house or building of any sort.

If she followed every bit of my advice, what she did would be perfectly safe. Following more the spirit of the law than the letter. But I take your point.

The amount of bureaucratic bs that one has to deal with in Philadelphia to try and get anything done is enough to want to throw yourself off the Benjamin Franklin Bridge.

Good luck with your reno CarrieB. I really hope that you can make it happen!!!!!

Thank you so much to everyone who has offered suggestions, cautions and encouragement!

One way or the other, in one form or another, I will have a new kitchen (at some point.)

Take a look at the layout I posted this morning at 8:56 & let me know what you think!

Typically you need 6-12" of space between the fridge and the wall so the door can open wide enough against the wall for you to be able to pull the fridge drawers out. People often do a narrow pull-out there, but those can be exexpensive and are not the best storage that ever existed. You also need several inches behind most fridges (4-5") and an inch or two of space on the top and/or sides for air circulation.

So if you move the fridge to in front of the nook, you might be able to get a standard depth fridge, but it should probably still be 30" wide, and you should be looking at how you want to fill the space between the fridge and the sliding door that will allow the door to swing.

36" wide standard depth fridges are usually recommended for a family of four. Without even knowing how many bedrooms are upstairs, I don't think what you have is a four-person home. The living spaces downstairs are just too small. This is a 1-2 person home. That is what you are, and that is what your buyers will be.

So it is totally fine to get an apartment-sized fridge and/or a counter-depth one. We have a one bedroom condo and did just that. A family of four will never live here either.

That said, it does seem nice to have your bit of counter on that wall be between the fridge and pantry. Just easier to set things down when you take them out of either the fridge or the pantry.

So you might think about getting a 30" counter depth fridge and putting it next to the basement stairs and flush with the stairs. (The stairs are 30" deep, so that gives you a few inches behind the fridge for circulation.). Then the fridge door won't hit a wall when it is opened and swing won't be an issue. Then put your microwave counter to the right of the fridge, and then put your pantry against the slider. Make them all flush with each other for a cleaner look. The pantry would just be deeper where the nook is. You might have someone custom-build just the boxes for this wall to use with IKEA doors. Just to max out your storage without going to great expense. The rest of your kitchen would fit standard IKEA boxes and doors.

I might also suggest:

1) Doing a speed oven there instead of a microwave. If you do the speed oven where the microwave is, you could nix the oven on the other wall and have more dish drawers under the cook top.

2) Doing a flat, glass top cooktop, like this:

{{gwi:2141164}}

It can act as extra counter space when not in use.

3) Instead of a solid pantry column on the microwave wall, extend the microwave counter through the pantry with cabinets above and below. You can still store pantry items there, but you have so little counter space in this kitchen, and doing that would gain you an uninterrupted four and half foot stretch to use next to the fridge and above the microwave. You'd just have to decide if counter or storage was your priority there.

4) The closet I suggested installing across from the stairs could also be a pantry. Still would separate the living from the kitchen and provide storage. Our front hall closet is bigger than yours would be, but I have ours split between holding coats and holding kitchen overage items. Storage is storage, you know?

Also, I came across [this picture[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/south-philly-row-house-eclectic-kitchen-philadelphia-phvw-vp~3741671) yesterday. It is similar to what you are planning, down to maybe having a floating table, so I thought it would help you visualize.

This post was edited by Jillius on Sun, Dec 28, 14 at 21:04

Sigh, DS turned off computer and kitchen plans and long entry to this thread lost :-(
The jist was my concern over a table in the middle of this kitchen. The width is 147" at most, 139" with the bump out at current range and you want two walkways, a table, and cabinets on both sides. You'll have a minimum of 50" for counters. You'd need AT LEAST 36" for one of the walkways to get you out to the back yard, at minimum 24" for a table, only leaving you 24" on the other side. And you have to dodge the table to get to the fridge. Everyday... Now I am projecting my way of moving through the physical world onto this kitchen and you are probably much more mindful! I love your inspiration photos, but they had 104" between counters and that can make the difference!

Whoops - duplicate

This post was edited by cluelessincolorado on Mon, Dec 29, 14 at 0:32

Jillius - all that you say about fridge size/location makes so much sense. Makes sense and "feels" right. I'm thinking that that wall will end up being "prep" space for me as much (at least?) as the sink/range area. Assuming I keep my breakfast cereal in the pantry - mornings, I will be getting cereal, milk & orange juice together, plus milk for coffee, and I'll want enough counter over there to do that. Also makes me wonder if I should keep breakfast bowls, some utensils, etc. On that wall.

Speed oven (is that the same as a convection microwave?)/separate cook top is a possibility. My KD had suggested that, and that's what we had in the original plan. I kind of scrapped it thinking of cost/resale, but it might be worth another look.

The countertop vs. pantry is also something to think about. I'm concerned that giving up the pantry would mean I don't have enough space to store my cereal, pasta, cooking oils, etc. But maybe with the uppers along the other wall, especially, that won't be an issue. It would be really nice to have room to get my breakfast together, maybe also keep the coffee make & toaster on the fridge wall instead of the sink wall. Really have to take the time to look at & measure my stuff.

Your last point brings me right into cluelessincolorado's point.

***(not so) Cluelessincolorado*** - thank you for reminding me not to ignore the elephant in the room.

I love the idea of a closet at the end of the sink run - a place to put my coats, workboots, cat food, mop & broom, hats, gloves, umbrellas... so they're not creating a hazard in the basement stairwell... but.... where am I gonna sit?

Original inspiration photo (linked) - in the back, where the table is, is 94" between cabinets. My space, assuming fronts are flush on that fridge wall & cabinets take up 25"- will be 88" and their cafe table is very small, and, I'm certain, auxiliary seating - not main dining area.

While I live alone, I often have two Airbnb guests staying, and they often eat breakfast here, and, if I want to, I sometimes pull up a chair from the LR to join them. So, I need fairly comfortable seating for two, with the option of pulling up a 3rd chair.

I love this layout so much, and feel like I've suffered so much anguish (not to mention expense, have scrapped a KD design that I paid well for) that I've been kind of looking the other way when it comes to a good seating solution. I think that seating IN the kitchen probably isn't realistic, except maybe for one. I hope I'm wrong, but... and the only other place is at the bottom of the stairs, where it would be really, really cool to have a closet.

{{gwi:2141165}}

Here is a link that might be useful: [Original Inspiration[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/row-house-kitchen-and-bath-renovation-contemporary-kitchen-philadelphia-phvw-vp~4373409)

This post was edited by carrieb on Mon, Dec 29, 14 at 9:11

Yes, I love mise-en-place (sp?) storage. IMHO, this works best everywhere. It means basically storing items in place of usage. So your cereal bowls and spoons should be by where you store your cereal and milk. All coffee/tea supplies should be next to where you prepare them, etc.

In a bigger kitchen, for example, if you have one food prep space and another space for baking, separate sets of measuring cups/spoons, bowls should be at each place. Or, if they are close to each other at least in a place easily reached from each work station without taking extra steps.

I do think your space is narrow for a table but you definitely need one. Is there a place for a drop-down table mounted to the wall? Or consider a very small drop-leaf table. Maybe something on casters or wheels that can be wheeled out of the way and put up as needed? Do you have wall space in your stairwell where you can hang a lightweight fold-down table and folding chairs that you can hang on hooks there and only bring out when needed? I've seen this done and it can look quite nice. There are some cute wooden folding chairs out there. Or go for something modern and colorful in metal (not just those ugly putty chairs). I think you can make space if you think creatively about this.

I have a small counter-height table (30"x24) with a shelf underneath where the two stools can be stowed until needed. It's light enough to move out of the way and could be put on small casters to make that easier. Just make sure two of the casters are locking if you get something like that.

Another option for a table is a coffee table that is adjustable height to make it dining height. My sister used to have something like that but I know they're hard to find. You could then have that kind of table in your living room and just raise it for dining when needed.

Hope some of this helps a bit.

I have to admit...I've kind of lost track of all the versions :)

That being said, would something like this work? {{gwi:2141166}}From Kitchen plans

Carrie, you're going to think I'm a crazy person, but I had a brain wave about this that literally woke me up last night.

In my defense, I am home recovering from leg surgery with nothing else to do, and these layouts are like puzzles to me. I have to solve it!

From your pictures, it looks as if you have plenty of room with your current living room layout to swap the little, low side table between your arm chairs for a bistro table.

I'm talking about the low side table (stool?) in this picture:
{{gwi:2137534}}

Having a bistro table there instead of the side table would mean you could sit and eat there, and the bistro table would also still function as a side table -- and as a little game table if you like that sort of thing.

I found a living room with the exact layout that I'm suggesting:

{{gwi:2141167}}

{{gwi:2141168}}

Except that table is a little too tall and has too much happening with the legs for chairs to be pulled up to it comfortably.

I'm picturing a tables shaped more like these:

{{gwi:2141169}}

{{gwi:2141170}}

{{gwi:2141171}}

But with a lighter, airier style like this (picture this with a bigger table top):
{{gwi:2141172}}

Here is another complete living room with a similar idea, although their table between the armchairs isn't quite the right shape:
{{gwi:2141173}}

Does that make sense? It would totally solve the issue of where to sit for regular eating.

Are your armchairs and couch the same seat heights? Or could you make them that way? If so, then if you got a bistro table that was the right comparative height for eating while sitting at the armchairs/couch and comes with extension leaves, you could easily seat a bunch of people for a dinner party too (just move the bistro table to the center of the room and the coffee table off to the side).

Like this, sort of:

{{gwi:2140716}}

I also had a secondary brainwave about another optional layout for your kitchen that I actually think would would very well.

It keeps the big window wall, but there are some counters running under part of it, so that wall would look more like this (with windows above the counter and a glass door on the right):

{{gwi:2141174}}

And there is a hinged counter that hangs down normally, but can flip up in front of the door like this:

{{gwi:2141175}}

I also moved the basement stairs door to the left side, although this change is only necessary if you either want the closet or the table in the kitchen.

And I have open, shallow shelves in the nook like this (more shallow than this picture shows -- more like a recessed spice rack):

{{gwi:2141177}}

{{gwi:2136301}}
If you do the closet, between it and the pantry on the other side and the stairs, you will create what really feels like a little hall with a hall closet. Sort of makes the stairs really belong there (since they are often found in halls), and it will help define the kitchen and living room as separate spaces.

This post was edited by Jillius on Mon, Dec 29, 14 at 18:57

Spent a bunch of time today off the Internet, and some with a friend showing her photos of my kitchen & proposed layout(s.) Also thought about what I like most about the most recent galley kitchen with big open door/windows in the back, and why, once I decided I loved that layout, I've not wanted to stray from it.

The back wall of the house is what I see when I walk in the door and what I see when I sit on the couch.

I don't find cabinets pretty at all. Yeah, I know, some cabinetry is beautiful, but, to me, no cabinet is as aesthetically pleasing as a nice painting, piece of pottery, flower, cat, or tapestry. I feel the same way about stoves, sinks, faucets and microwaves. They're functional, some are ugly, some have pleasing colors shapes & designs, but, basically, they are tools.

So, when I'm sitting on my couch, or when I walk into my house, I don't really want to be looking straight at kitchen tools, I'd rather look out a big window. Here's the view from the front door (the blob at the bottom of the photo is an arm of the couch, you can see the front door open on the front right:

{{gwi:2141178}}

So, as I was showing my friend my layouts, she pointed to the white cabinet I currently have in the living room. That cabinet is where I keep my tablecloths, place mats, dishcloths, stationary/office supplies & some misc. electronics, bus tokens, etc. She suggested I replace that cabinet with a tall closet (and that IKEA likely has some decent ones that could work quite well.)

Here it is: {{gwi:2136300}}

My friend also suggested that a 30" table at the bottom of the steps should work out just fine - a table just like the one you're suggesting, Jillius! - for 2 or 3 people for breakfast, as long as it had a pedestal type base. I've put the 30" table cutout in this layout photo, and you can see where the closet could go. If I put a closet in the LR, it might strengthen the argument for going with uppers/lowers/counter space instead of a tall pantry.

{{gwi:2141179}}

I went back to an earlier KD drawing. Is there a reason the fridge is bumped forward? Could that be pushed back to be even with the rest of the wall?

If the kitchen is 12' across...you should have room for a 2' deep work table/movable island that could be used in between the sink/range and fridge walls.

This would give you a little more prep/storage space, but not block your view out the windows. Just an idea :) {{gwi:2141180}}From Kitchen plans

Lavender_lass - I don't know, but I think it was Jillius who said that refrigerators need several inches of clearance from the back wall? Also, remember there's that "cubby" in the back 36" of the house, so maybe it's only bumped forward as much as the wall is bumped forward.

The kitchen is 12' 2" at the back 36", 11' 6" in the rest of it. Even if a worktable would technically fit, I don't think, using the kitchen the way I do, that I'd need it. I do currently have a kitchen cart, on wheels, under the end of my peninsula (it only moves when I clean the floor) and I might keep that.

So appreciate all your work on my behalf!

How large is your current frig cubic foot wise, and is it sufficient for your needs?

Clueless:

My current fridge is 15.5 cf total, 11.68 fridge , 3.81 freezer.

The CD one I'm considering is 13.81, 10.5, 4.4.

To give you a sense of my fridge use, I've attached a photo. Note: 1. My freezer is pretty packed & 2. This is my fridge prepared for a party tonight (hence, beer, sodas, dip, berries, veggies in drawer for cutting up, etc.

{{gwi:2141181}}

I think the smaller, CD one should work out just fine. Fridge does get crowded during my 3-6 pot-luck parties per year, but that's about it.

Right now, I feel like my biggest decision is whether to go with a pantry, or uppers/lowers w/ counter space on that same wall.

Here is a link that might be useful: Summit CD Freezer Bottom

Working with the galley you want going around kitchen clockwise:
12" PO
30" Cooktop over 30"DB
27" DB
15" PO
27" SB
18" DW WITH 1.5" END PANEL
OTHER SIDE
12" PO PANTRIES STACKED
30" FRIG CAB WITH 25-27" FRIG
CUSTOM WORK WITH 15" DB NEXT TO 27" OVEN
MICROWAVE ABOVE THE 42" COUNTER IN UPPER
60"-72" DOOR AT END OF GALLEY
{{gwi:2141182}}{{gwi:2141183}}

Clueless- Nice layout! I like the oven with the microwave...and the storage under the cooktop.

What is your software? It's great! Like looking into a dollhouse :)

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Wed, Dec 31, 14 at 12:35

Clueless - lovely work! I wish I could get the sweethome3d program to work for me - it's a free one that was recommended, but I've spent many frustrating hours watching tutorials & playing around with it!

Your sink wall looks pretty much like my IKEA planner sink wall, but I'll probably go w/ a 30" standard range, and an under cabinet hood, as well as uppers everywhere there isn't a window:

{{gwi:2141184}}

Your drawing on the fridge side gives me BOTH a pantry and a decent amount (by my standards) of counterspace, which I love. My IKEA Planner drawing had a much wider pantry, which I don't really need, I don't think. Since I'll probably go with the standard range on the other wall, that will give me more storage on that side for pull-out trash, maybe cat food, etc. I really like that you've got the microwave all the way in the back, which gives nice landing/countertop space in between the fridge & the micro.

lavender-sweethome 3D. Free, but has a learning curve ;)

I think in a house this size, an 18" DW is perfectly acceptable, esp with a smaller scale frig. Benefit of splitting range would be more storage near prep area in case you can get those windows! I thought of PO trash near sink/prep. I have trash and recycling in 12" cab.

Thanks, (not so) clueless. I agree that an 18" would be acceptable, for me. And, currently, I don't have a DW at all & have never missed it. At least w/ a DW, my dishes wouldn't be sitting out to dry on the countertop. In my last KD layout, there was an 18" DW, a two burner induction cooktop & a convection microwave w/ no traditional oven. All space saving thoughts for a single non-cook in a small home.

I started second guessing myself because: these non standard items cost a LOT more than the standard (& standard sized) appliances, and I started to think @ re-sale. I do expect to live here for quite sometime - until I can't make it up the stairs to use the bathroom several (many) times a day. So hard to weigh the pros & cons!

Right now, my trash can & recycling can are pretty big (13g?) and I don't think I can go much smaller. My trash pickup is once a week, my trash is usually pretty full, and I don't have a garage to store the stuff that's waiting for trash pickup. Extra trash/recycling goes out to the garden, which I don't like. And If I'm going to have those windows/sliding doors looking out to the garden...