funkycamper:

Why is it any worse to put plastic laminate in a landfill any more than returning stone there? Both will take thousands of years to degrade and neither give off poisons. I'm not getting it.

I don't think children are working (for the most part) in granite quarries. It's tough work and I simply don't see 12 year olds being physically capable. Even if they are, I guess they make several times the wages they would get collecting garbage!

Granite will last forever and is "environmentally friendly" if only for that reason. Use it once. End of story. This is "mining." Lots of stuff are mined....gold, silver, coal, etc. Why are you so concerned about granite and marble?

If you're concerned about child labor in your home, better get rid of that beautiful Asian rug.

@Joseph, leaving the extraction/production issues out of it, which is a whole other kettle of confusion and issues to assess, I prefer to send as little to landfills as possible. I guess I'm thinking that while you can re-use laminate, it has more limited re-use options. While stone could be re-cut for other kitchens or be cut for things like benches, grave stones and other memorial markers, table tops, small slabs for a baking center, etc. I don't understand why any stone would even end up in a landfill.

@Avanti, so are you saying a kitchen with stone will never be remodeled? Ever? Yes, lots of things are mined. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make conscious choices.

I have been suffering with a 1948 kitchen for over 20 years. It has certainly been greener/more environmentally friendly for me to not modernize the kitchen and to continue using the existing kitchen until it is literally falling to pieces (even then most of the pieces could be repaired... kind of...and you know that the Maytag will never die). On days when everything is fully functioning, I feel very guilty and wasteful for wanting to modernize the kitchen. The rest of the time I know why I have committed to making changes.

The most important thing is to carefully consider all of your choices so that you don't end up redoing anything in a year or two.

I am curious-why was it only the countertop that gave you pause for reflection? The same issue applies to the entire kitchen.

On the issues of environmental impact and employee welfare, I wonder if carrera from italy is a better choice than most stone because the quarry would be subject to EU regulation? (I haven't looked into it, just had that thought)

Practicgal- interesting thought. The only reason my kitchen was done is because I purchased my childhood home with the intentions of building a MIL quarters for my parents.

My mom loved her original kitchen and I hated it. Not just the look, I can get over looks and make due with staining or painting, it was the layout that didn't work for me at all.

In discussing with my parents what we should do (I was prepared to just make the best of it with that kitchen) we decided that a new kitchen would HAVE to be purchased anyways and we might as well purchase the new kitchen for me in the main part of the house and reuse the old kitchen in the MIL quarters.

My mom gets the kitchen she wanted and always loved, I get rid of the kitchen I don't want and have never liked, and we reused all the appliances.

I like to think we did a good job on reduce, reuse, recycle. The only thing we couldn't reuse from the original kitchen was the laminate counters. Water damage to the (is it MDF that laminate attaches too?) meant it had to be replaced.

@funkycamper - lol, now I'm actually wondering if people who fall madly love with a fancy stone for their countertops ever save a remnant to use as their headstone. Or do cemeteries have rules against high movement granite...

"I am curious-why was it only the countertop that gave you pause for
reflection? The same issue applies to the entire kitchen."If you're asking if my nagging voice, about environmentally friendly items, were there through every step of my kitchen updo, and all walks of my life it seems, then yes it's there through everything I do. With regards to the countertop, it is the last thing I need to purchase or make for my DIY kitchen to be completed. (I thought it would never get done as money is tight to non existent sometimes.) It's also almost the only thing that I'd wanted that isn't used.

Every other bit of my kitchen down the the insulation and drywall is 2nd hand. Cupboards, appliances, wood flooring, sink, etc. are all reused items. I too have kept appliances that are not the best for electricity use, due to their working, plus the new ones being out of my price range. I do still dream of induction especially for my son, but it's not likely any time soon.

Hmm. I'm guessing there are better places to buy from, but wonder if I can live with any of the list. Pit mining seems bad, and imported is hard on the environment, I've read, with cost of transport etc. Even without the possible Child Labour concern, the list against is strong.

What bothers me is if we stop buying these things altogether, is that good, healthy, right for our world, and the economy. But that`s another whole discussion, probably in a different format. There`s that voice again.

Speaking of countertops... marble... extraction... This is one of the best videos my husband has shared with me recently. I don't think it speaks to the environmental question, but it's a fascinating and beautiful sight.

"Carrara's marble quarries in the Apuan Alps, Northwest Italy, as Il Capo (The Chief) guides his men through the extraction process"

Il Capo (Excerpt)

I have these thoughts going through my mind all of the time. Every single component of a house has an environmental footprint. It would be interesting to know how much fuel goes into mining, sawing, polishing, and transporting a piece of granite. Compare that to the (excess) fuel that goes into heating a house that is 2. 3. 4. or 10 times bigger than what the owner needs, and built to code-minimum energy standards. I don't think harvesting that stone uses all that much energy, or the cost would be higher.

Here's an example: I bought a huge, precision granite surface plate, used in the tool making industry. it was 36" X 48" X 8" thick, and extremely flat- about .0005" over its entire surface. It weighed 1200 lbs. This was mined, sawn, ground, and honed. Then it was shipped from China to NYC. I then bought it in FL, and they shipped it there. The retail price was $300, which means despite all of the work and energy used, someone STILL made a profit on it! My brother's big old house in VT uses twice that much in fuel every month.

I'm sure open pit mining is hard on the environment, but so is stripping the woods, re-grading a lot, and digging a hole so a family of three people can live there. Man has been re-arranging the Earth's surface for a long time, and so has Mother Nature. Look at the impact of a single earthquake or volcano.

What is my takeaway? The three R's are a good start, with Reduce being key. Compare the size of an average American house with the rest of the world. My BIL's retirement house is 3500 square feet; ours is 1400. We really should have gone even smaller. Our first house was 800 square feet, and we happily lived in it and raised a son there. I'm sure in many parts of the world, a heated and air conditioned 800 square foot house, with indoor plumbing would be a luxury.

Okay, I'll put away my organic, sustainably harvested soapbox. I tend to get philosophical first thing in the morning! There's a LOT to consider, and I admit to being wasteful, even in my smaller-than-average home.

Lot's of interesting insight in this thread. I am 100% with Steph2000 on the plastic bag&bottle ban!

If every one of us at least thinks about the environmental impact of our choices, and does our best to reduce our footprint, we would all be better off, but many of the changes we need are so large in scale an individual has no impact. I have been doing the best I can since I was a kid and was arrested with my older sister at an anti-nuke protest!

I use cloth grocery/shopping bags, I grow many of my own veggies, I have a local farm share and only purchase locally raised meat, I compost, I drive a fuel efficient car and carpool as often as I can. For many years I walked to work, and now my DH walks to work. We bought an old leaky house which burns a lot of oil, but over the years have insulated and tightened it up and its using a lot less oil now. DH shops at Goodwill, we buy used furniture (the only new piece we own is our bed!), we recycle extensively.

Are we perfect? No way, but it helps and it is thrifty, too. In my new house I'm buying new cabinetry, but I bought used Costa Rose granite countertops and designed the kitchen to make it work. It included a sink and nice faucet, too. I'll get a new window for the kitchen, but have purchased a beautiful window from Habitat for the LR. It all ads up over time.

Here is probably a silly question but for those of you who want plastic bags banned, what are we to use for trash?

I don't put my plastic shopping bags in to be recycled. I either use them for trash or take them to my local consignment store where they are reused.

I think, ideally, we would be buying and using biodegradable trash bags. It's unfortunate they're a bit pricey. Maybe prices would come down if demand went up? Of course, re-use is good, too.

Yesterday while doing unrelated reading I came across a great countertop choice. Stainless steel. Today's stainless steel is already made from 40-60% recycled steel and when you're done with it, it's 100% recyclable again. So the life cycle works out pretty well. Sure the ore is still mined, refined, and transported but at least it gets used several times.

I also feel compelled to address the theme that because there are other environmental issues that a person has not addressed, then that somehow negates their efforts in the arena that they are tying to improve. Joesph's comment about the Asian rug is a classic example. I can see the temptation to call someone out for overlooking a particular aspect of their life, but it's a counterproductive line of reasoning. Any place someone can do better, they should be encouraged to do so, period. None of us in the developed world has a light footprint. We can all do better and should strive to do so, wherever we can.

It's hard enough to make good choices, I don't think anyone needs to be scoffed at for trying to do so. To those of you who are working on lightening your load on the planet, I salute you. Thank you for your efforts.

Avanti - Regarding children working in the quarries

Sometimes these kids are the only means of support for their families.

Edited to include a more apropos article.

Here it is

http://www.verite.org/Commodities/Granite

Plastic grocery bags are banned where I live. I can buy a paper bag at the grocery store (they are required by law to charge me for it) or I can bring my own. I bring my own 90 percent of the time. The other ten percent we reuse the bags for compost or art projects or to donate stuff to goodwill, etc.

For trash, my kitchen trash can is lined with plastic bags I purchase. Grocery store plastic bags wouldn't be big enough anyway. My bathroom trash cans are unlined and I usually dump them into the kitchen trash can and empty the whole thing at once.

I agree whole heartedly with karinmt. Perfect is the enemy of good. Trying to improve in any one area is worthwhile.

As far as why focus on the countertop, I can't speak for the OPer. For me, I found the countertop the most challenging. There seem to be more obvious, available, affordable options for other kitchen choices. I really wanted stainless steel for the counters in part for the environmental advantages. Dh really disliked the idea as he didn't like the look and our GC was very insistent that it would be very expensive--$3000 plus for the sink run alone, which was pretty much the budget for the counters for the whole kitchen. Given that combination of objections, I dropped it.

My soapstone was locally-sourced; the hole in the ground that it was cut out of is 150 miles away. I did my own honing and fabrication. Other countertop sections are wood, from a shop in Ohio; pretty sure the trees were cut in that area, too; ash, maple and cherry. No VOCs. Uncovered the original wood floor, conserved and refinished it. I don't get rid of anything until it's completely worn out; tee shirts become work/painting shirts, then become rags.
Casey

crl- I meant trash bags that you buy. If plastic is banned, what are we supposed to line our kitchen trash with?

My other comment about plastic shopping bags was just what I do with mine. Line bath, bedroom and office trash and donate the rest.

My question though was about purchased plastic bags.

They are making biodegradable 'plastic' bags now that you can buy.

Jerzeegirl said "Sometimes these kids are the only means of support for their families."

Huh? Did we read the same article? Rangamma works with her dad. Her dad is paid but she's not. She's not even "on the book". I believe it was the same for all the children profiled. And this is in great detriment to their health and their future prospects. Wouldn't it be better to help break the cycle?

Also, did you miss this paragraph (emphasis mine)?

In the US, UK and EU, intensive campaigns have been mounted to make people aware that the demand for cheap marble and granite has increased the incidence of children working in quarries. But these campaigns are mostly vilified, with accusations hurled that they are stopping peoples’ livelihoods. The pro-child labour lobby, comprising mostly vested interests, claims the children are worse off when they don’t work because their parents then cannot afford to feed them. This is a myth perpetuated by people who employ children because child labour makes production cheaper and more competitive.

While I'm still anti-stone, I do applaud those who decide to get a stone product quarried in America. It keeps Americans working and also means that less children around the world will be subject to this brutal way of life. Yes, it probably costs a bit more but knowing I kept a child from such hard labor would be worth it to me and my pocketbook.

Firstly, I want to thank Karin for her last post and highlight it. As someone who is passionate about these issues, I've been involved in countless internet discussions of these issues. I can't tell you how weary I am of the predictable narrative that anyone who dares to advocate in favor of environmentally sound alternatives on ANY issue is a hypocrite because they are using the internet - and therefore, electricity and petroleum-based plastics (and probably exploitative labor practices are found somewhere in the electronics)! That sounds extreme but I swear, that contingent shows up virtually every single time. I guess the only way to have credibility for those folks is to live in a yurt using dung for fuel, totally opting out of civilization altogether (and therein being effectively marginalized and silenced, cut off from information, communication and participation, conveniently enough). I have actually wondered if this is a tactic that has been purposefully seeded by powers that be who have vested interests in preserving a very annihilistic status quo. Personally, I believe that the host of environmental issues facing us are the #1 issue we have to deal with as a globe - so we can fight about every other issue for the next millennium.

I don't want to derail the thread with the plastics issue, but I highly recommend even the most introductory googling of the issue of plastic garbage in the ocean - and about the possibilities hemp offers for saner packaging. These are largely petroleum products, though PepsiCo developed the first totally plant-based plastic bottle in 2011, and so it's one shift that would HELP get us off our of oil addiction. We have mountains of this garbage in the oceans. It's deadly to animals in it's whole form - and as it breaks down. This crap is also contributing to the warming and acidification of the oceans, which is very bad ju-ju.

IMHO, we are really talking largely about the impact of our convenience-I-should-be-able-to-have-whatever-I-want-right-now-without-effort products, lifestyles and mentalities, which is ultimately unhealthy for us as well as our environment. Plastic garbage bags are bad, but that's really not where the biggest damage is coming from - by a long shot. Even if we still kept those for now and IMMEDIATELY got rid of the type that are being used for take out and shopping in breath-taking numbers every day, it would be a huge shift. Same goes with plastic water bottles. We'd forget our glass water bottle or fabric shopping bags a few times and learn new habits that are better for our bodies and our world. It's a win-win, if we are willing to give up our I-want-it-now-anywhere-cheap-and-easy ways. But, ultimately, these decisions can't rely on individual consumers. They are meta-issues and need to be dealt with on a larger scale.

The truth is, healthier and saner alternatives exist - and would boom if we have standards that required it and legalized hemp, which is an amazing plant caught up in crazy regulation that is so insane it just has to be fueled by misinformation and lobby campaigns by those who benefit from the status quo and by those who have an unfounded fear about marijuana on the level of zealotry - exactly the type of interests that should NOT be driving our policies.

PS - Despite my passion on these issues, I'm not perfect about my own compliance. I am down to buying a plastic water bottle maybe once every other month now - and occasionally get a soda. I still sometimes forget my reusable grocery bags and have to use some from the store, though I pack them to the point of breaking and leave the big things loose when that happens. I routinely ask people now not to give me a bag when I have a handful of things at the drug store or wherever (thank you, big purse gods). With the remodel, we eat too much take-out, which fills our garbage noticeably quickly.

fc

Sorry you did not like the article I posted. There are plenty of others - just google "child labor granite quarries" and perhaps you will find something more to your liking.

Look. There are children all over the world that work in thankless jobs, That much is a given. Some pick garbage out of the rivers, some go over the waste dumps and some work in quarries. Would you rather have them pick garbage out of polluted rivers or work in a quarry? One leads to sickness and dispair...the other leads them to making a few dollars to feed their family. Are the quarries ideal? Hell NO! but it pays them more than the traditional sweatshops. Would you rather that they simply die in poverty?

At least, they earn some money and thrive. Perhaps YOU could go there, adopt a few thousand of them and give them a "Better Life." No? Well let them do what they can with what they have

Wow.

Woah. In general, eliminating child labor DOES NOT result in starving children. It forces the business owners to hire adults and pay them adult wages, which means families are actually better off. Unions didn't push child labor laws in this country out of the goodness of their hearts.

@steph2000 - Bravo!

@jerzeegirl - The article was to my liking. Very informative. It simply did not say what you were implying.

@Avanti - The article jerzeegirl posted said that working in quarries generally cuts about 10 years from the workers lives due to the dust inhaled and respiratory issues. So I think quarry workers experience sickness and despair, too. And poverty.

Are you really saying that if we can't save all of them, that we shouldn't save any? Are you really that wrapped up in keeping your own job that you have that little compassion for others? Do you predominately deal in stone quarried from India and don't want to lose business if people choose other counter materials or purchase American-quarried slabs? If I was in the market for stone, I would not be one of your customers.

I find it troubling that ANYONE would post such a pro child labor comment, but for someone presenting themselves as a pro and an identified company in that industry, it's concerning cubed. Are you similarly okay with the poor children of the United States being exploited as a cheap labor source, I wonder?

I think we have ALL gone a bit off the deep end here.

I mean, how exactly are you posting in this forum right now? With a stone tablet and a chisel? No, you are using modern technology, either a laptop, PC, ipad or other tablet, iPhone or other smart phone.

Can ANY of you honestly tell me you are using a Commodore 64? Of course not, you wouldn't even be able to access the internet with such a device. How exactly do you think the very device you are using was made? I'm pretty certain it wasn't made from recycled wood and plastic.

My point being that the very devices we are using to communicate with right now will be in a landfill in 5-10 years time, if it even takes that long.

We are COMMUNICATING on DISPOSABLE devices that will end up in a landfill to argue over essentially what constitutes an acceptable amount of waste/environmental impact.

Hopefully we can ALL step back for a moment and realize that we are ALL "suffering" from First World Problems here.

Since we're really getting deep into the environmental problems of the world, let's address the root problem. Personally, I believe that there are already too many people on earth. We continue to add to that number, which has to stretch the resources, no matter how careful we are. People will argue that with modern technology, we can feed far more people than we do now, but is that the right answer? If you pump oxygen into a small goldfish bowl so that 30 fish can survive in there, does that mean it's OK? At the same time science is allowing us to grow more food on less land, people are rallying against GMO's and other modern techniques. So what do we do- go back to foraging and hunting? Can you imagine how fast the earth would be stripped bare if we all did that?

With that supposition, let's consider the environmental impact of having ONE child. 75 years, on average, of food, clothing shelter, water, and transportation, not to mention recreation and entertainment. That's a pretty big footprint. But people adore the family with 19 children, and watch their TV show. Can you imagine if every family had 19 children, and their offspring each had 19 children? What's the answer? I don't know. Being largely Libertarian, I wouldn't want draconian rules like China has on family size, but for the greater cause of the health of the earth, maybe we need to find a way to slow down. Humans are like a weed, pushing in and taking over virtually all of the local flora and fauna. I wonder what the next-largest organism on earth is with numbers that would equal man? Certainly not other large mammals. Most likely, it's... rats.

I think that Mother Nature will eventually make a 'correction'. If we don't get hit by an asteroid or a super caldera eruption, or wipe each other out with warfare, there will probably be some medication-resistant bug (that we inadvertently created) that will make us pay the price for living on top of each other in huge cities. We've created this mess, wiping out diseases, increasing lifespans, improving fertility, and learning to protect our puny selves from the dangers of the wild. I wish future generations good luck. Meanwhile, I will continue to do what I can for my remaining time.

I know that's pretty far out there, but what have I said that isn't true?

They are making biodegradable 'plastic' bags now

Are these different from the plastic bags our grocery store uses, which "biodegrade" by shivering into many small shards of plastic instead of one large lump on extended exposure to sunlight?

Mushcreek- the answer is actually quite simple. Worldwide the fertility rate has been dropping for the past 7 years.

In developed countries the birthrate is less than 2.0 which is what is the necessary birth rate to keep the population stable.

In underdeveloped and third world countries the birthrate is still extremely high. Sometimes as much as 4 or 5.

The answer is better access to birth control, education for women and adequate food and medicine.

It has been shown time and time again that when a population, more specifically women, have better access to clean food, water and medicine, including birth control and a higher level of education, birth rates drop.

Women have a choice then, they don't need a man to support them if they are capable of supporting themselves. They delay marriage until they find a suitable spouse and they plan their family sizes.

People like the Duggars with the 19 children are well known but they are outlier's. They also aren't on the air anymore due to the revelation of sex abuse.

Some of us choose to have children, I have 4 myself. My 2 closest friends who I grew up with are child free by choice.

Choice is the solution. When women have a choice on whether or not to have children and how many to have, the overall birthrate drops.

"I also feel compelled to address the theme that because there are other environmental issues that a person has not addressed, then that somehow negates their efforts in the arena that they are tying to improve. Joesph's comment about the Asian rug is a classic example. I can see the temptation to call someone out for overlooking a particular aspect of their life, but it's a counterproductive line of reasoning."

karin_mt:

If you reread the thread, the written record will show the child labor issue was brought up three times previous to my mentioning it. I didn't post as an attempt to negate efforts in an area someone is trying to improve, but to shed light on an area of child labor that may be overlooked.

Every time there is a school shooting, there is an effort to enact more gun laws when statistically schools are some of the safest places children can be. Swimming pools kill one hundred times as many children as do firearms, yet there is no movement to ban pools. Statistically, this makes no sense.

I don't know if more children are exploited through textiles or stone, but we should be aware of each.

writersblock, I should have said "compostable" or bioplastic. They are usually made out of corn. They can be put in your compost pile or used if you have curbside composting.

We have a local computer shop that will gladly accept old computers, phones, TVs, and other electronics and either fix them up to get them working, if possible, or dismantle them and recycling everything possible. My understanding is that a surprisingly large portion of old electronics can be recycled except the batteries. Many local non profits are in need of working electronics.

I don't understand why using modern conveniences negates efforts in other areas? This has been addressed better earlier in this discussion so.... Enough said. While I disagree with Texas Gem on that issue, I totally agree with her on birth control access issues.

I suppose there must be folks who love the Duggars or the show wouldn't have been on so long. I never got it.

There are still problems with plastic bags, even biodegradables. Best to minimize use as much as possible. Interesting article here today

Funkycamper, I agree, I would choose "compostable" as opposed to biodegradable. Unfortunately not everyone has a compost pile or curbside compost pick up, so this isn't really a widespread solution.

Yes, so minimize use as much as possible. Most garbage in our house, stuff that is neither recyclable or compostable is packaging. It can go in a kitchen garbage container without being lined with plastic and cleanly dumped. I only use about one plastic bag for the gross garbage per week. Even then I rarely fill it but it needs to be taken out as it starts to smell. Of course, having a pig dog helps. :)

I'll bite, even if some comments here are veering dangerously close to connotations illustrated in my earlier observations and objections to narratives that suggest that no one who owns a computer has any credibility on environmental issues or right to speak up on them without being accused of hypocrisy.

Firstly, the fact that we agree we are largely living in a disposable economy is great illustration of a unsustainable model. That being said, we have created things like computers and smart phones and are really relying on them world-wide now to do so many things makes the argument for reducing our use of petroleum products elsewhere even stronger. Especially as an interim step while we figure out better materials for these important but ultimately still disposable objects. All the more reason to just stop all the production of plastic packaging for virtual garbage, which is non-essential in every sense of the word. We could ban them tonight at midnight and what would happen? Um, we'd remember to bring our reusable bags or purchase some the next time we go to the store? We'd be a wee bit inconvenienced, which might actually be GOOD for us. The sky would not fall, the economy would not crash, and if anything, entrepreneurial enterprise would be stimulated - in a positive way focused on healthier ideas for both us and the planet.

Secondly, these issues are not first world problems - they are WORLD problems. As in, you know, harmful to an increasingly stressed and shrinking planet. And, the negative impacts to people are disproportionally experienced by those of fewer economic resources, whether you are talking about Philly or Delhi. Countertop decisions are as good an example of this as any number of other things, but ultimately just one in a myriad of examples. This isn't even a tomorrow problem any more, it's about the impact in very present tense. We humans seem to be having trouble with some basic concepts, like what the word finite means. Or global economy.

Thirdly, though I don't really get the phrase "first world" to describe Western society and find that terminology ethnocentric and contradictory (indigenous people of the world are seen as 'First People', after all), this conversation is more about "first world responsibilities" and less about "first world problems". Given the fact that Western nations and companies are the beneficiaries of the status quo and a huge player in mining the world's resources and people for profit, having the resources and equipment to do so, and everyday Western people like you and me provide the demand, possessing the buying power to gobble up what is produced by said ventures (the cheaper the better, right?), I see it as our obligation to consider these issues. With freedom/privilege/rights comes responsibilities and all that very American jazz... The LEAST we can do is talk about it.

Fourthly, I'm not really crazy about the apparent shift to move from being dependent on the world for resources extracted elsewhere with destroying our own ecosystems in the name of "independence" and the red, white and blue. We are still dependent on unsustainable and dirty, dirty, dirty technologies/resources. I'd much rather see us shift away from environmental destruction towards green alternatives than bring these risks home like we are. I've been discouraged for the American willingness to tolerate spills, earthquakes, flooding, drought, water depletion and pollution, explosions, insane weather, etc on the "homeland" in the name of continuing the status quo, while tolerating politicians who demonstrate destructive denial of climate issues, attack regulatory agencies and empower energy companies who are using the same tactics as Big Tobacco did (using the exact same firms, in fact). I mean, have you seen the composition of the senate subcommittees lately? You know, the one led by Inhofe, who profoundly reflected his position this winter when he brought a snowball to show as evidence to Congress? Meanwhile, in January, the Senate voted 50/49 that humans are not responsible for climate change.

Finally, I am not convinced any more that over-population is ultimately the problem. Yes, it's an important issue, but what I see is that most families with many children live in poverty. As humans and societies move out of poverty, it seems they are largely replacing children with STUFF. Lots of STUFF. Based on our models, which we broadcast and seed worldwide. Meanwhile, scientists assert that right now we have enough food to feed the world and enough wind power potential to power the world 7x over, with a little help from solar and geothermic and hydrofuel in the densest cities. The problems are more about waste, distribution and the will to do it when the powers that be are invested in tapping out peak oil and fossil fuels at all cost. I'm a huge advocate for birth control access, though. Huge. Because I wouldn't have the education, life and choices I have enjoyed without having had easy access to it since I was in high school. I owe it to others to pay that forward.

Aren't compostable garbage bags better even if people don't have compost piles or pick-up? Given it can safely degrade in the landfill - or if swept away into the waterways? Am I missing something there?

Steph2000, you'd think so, but sadly, no.

"Compostable bags do not undergo this ideal transformation when placed in a landfill, however. This is because modern-day landfills are largely void of oxygen. When compostable items, including grass clippings, leaves, fruit and vegetables, coffee grinds, newspapers, etc. enter a landfill, methane gas is created."

The Dirt on Compostable Plastic Bags? - from Clean Calgary Association

Another oxygen dead zone, I guess... wish we would get rid of those...

I wish I had seen this post before it broadened out into such a wide-ranging discussion. But what the heck. To the OP's original question, we discovered an enormous unexpected benefit to sticking with USA or Canadian granite. Which we did somewhat for environmental reasons but also because DH is a geologist especially knowledgeable about North American stone. The benefit? It cut down on choices! We never felt constrained and never had to go crazy choosing. We ended up with Jet Mist in our kitchen and a granite from Quebec (not far away) in one bathroom. The coup was finding a fabricator who could source slabs from small Maine quarries when we were working on our master bath. We wound up with a beautiful counter for less than the price of others we were looking at and we know exactly where it came from. (BTW, there are at least 3 blue Canadian granites.)

None of us will ever be able to make the perfect environmental choices without totally hamstringing ourselves on every decision. As others have said, the important thing is to keep thinking and talking about them. Likely the most significant choice we made in our various projects was keeping our 20-year old kitchen cabinets, which were locally made and will last 50 more years, even though it meant keeping some niggling layout problems.

I am glad there are passionate well worded people here able to civilly discuss such an ever broadened topic. :)

What strikes me is that mostly we all want the same things. But tackle those things mentally and physically at different times. We'll never be on the same page at the same time. I've only been able to consider considering the impact of my use of electricity with older appliances recently due to years of illness related poverty. My awareness of these things is deep. My ability to affect change is not always there. So for myself as with others, I do what I can when I can. I've always used my own bags and a shopping cart for groceries. If I do get plastic bags I recycle at my local store. I stuffed my home with insulation, buying whenever I could afford it. I turn off my heat early in the year and during the day in the winter. No AC, which we can do in Vancouver. Brown grass and self sustaining plants. Short showers, don't let the water run. Composting of course. These things I do and can do.

I drive too much. It's part of my business. We eat very few packaged things, but do get takeout sometimes. When my son and husband are very sick and I'm working 12 hour days, food becomes more difficult to buy, so the eat local and healthy plan goes sideways. I drive that ship and sometimes get off course. We use lots of bright lighting where ever my husband is because of his SAD. My son is a soda pop drinker when not migraining. :0( Life is full of compromises and a lack of perfection here.

I think this kind of community of people openly talking is what we need worldwide. Talking about things at our kitchen tables and enacting what resonates with us. I've been to other sites where no one can sit and talk it out. I love to talk and plan over tea and crumpets. I'm allergic to wheat, but still remember crumpets. Yum. I make mine with rye flour these days. It doesn't quite work, but I make do.

That brings me back to the countertop question. What surface do you roll your dough on? I have a line on a stainless steel counter with a BB piece on the end. In my dream house I'd have an all copper counter and farm sink combo but that's not going to happen. With the other counter in blue granite...Let it go Yeona!

I agree with the above poster who reminds us that we should think REDUCE, REUSE, RECYCLE ... in that order.

In terms of kitchens, that'd mean:

Reduce the square footage in the kitchen you're planning. MANY of the kitchens we see on this site could be reduced without loss of function.

Reduce the amount of cabinetry /countertop in your build (a pantry is cheaper and is mostly wood, a renewable product).

Reuse your old cabinets if possible -- paint them, move them to the garage to become storage. Keep your old sink if possible.

Buy quality items so you won't need to replace them a few years down the road; for example, if you do choose stone counters, they really should be a lifetime purchase! But if you put them on cheap cabinetry, you're setting yourself up for a change in the future.

And, if necessary, send things to be recycled.

I agree with OP, open minded discussion all over the world is what is needed to address these topics. We don't all agree on a specific solution and that is a good thing! There isn't one all encompassing solution, it takes a team of people, all with different priorities that they focus on, to make our world a better place.

Sure, we may disagree, I certainly feel like I've been the outlier in this thread, BUT, as yeona said, we all want the same end goal.

We all want the planet, and the people living on it, to be healthy and prosperous.

Whether that is through composting, being mindful of the impact your choices make on others less fortunate, trying to reduce your use of natural resources, or simply recycling what you can, when you can, we all make a difference.

Its nice to find a group of people that I can have these discussions with.

This thread is simply amazing. I wish it weren't 7 years old so I could have read it unfolding in real time. I'm here because I'm doing the kind of research @yeonassky asked about to understand the environmental impact and usability/maintenance tradeoffs of various countertops and eventually everything else. I've found a couple of reasonably local cabinet makers. I'm on the email list for a salvage place--I may score something nice due to some rich Seattleite deciding they can't stand to look at their 5-year-old something-or-other for another minute so maybe I'll be able to get used butcherblock or something.

We have a kitchen with a truly unusable layout that will require removing and replacing everything to make it work. We bought the house knowing this was the one major change it would need. We downsized to reduce our footprint; we walk/bike/take transit for much of our transportation and own one old, fuel-efficient car for two people and we think about many other aspects of our impact that others mentioned above. This will be the one and only kitchen remodel I ever do and I'll live with this kitchen until they make me stop baking bread and cookies and making soup and carry me out of here, so these are definitely all decisions for the long run. The remodel is intended to make it easier to care for as we get older so I'm thinking about things like smooth cabinet fronts and radiused sink corners so I'm not cleaning gunk out of little tiny places when I'm 92. (I come from a long-lived family.)

We'll donate every usable item out of the kitchen in hopes at least some of it gets another life. It's all builder grade and some of the lower cabinetry has rotted out due to careless past owners so it's not awesome but it's not nothing either.

One thought for those finding this thread more recently and thinking about the reuse/recycle elements: I'm a member of my neighborhood's Buy Nothing group and it's simply amazing. People give away appliances, cabinets, closet doors, pots and pans, clothing, books, home decor, and on and on--all in the spirit of building a sharing economy and reducing waste. If your area doesn't have one you might consider starting it up. BuyNothing.org for more information. Humans directly helping and being helped by other humans--powerful stuff. It also helped me connect with a couple of people who may become friends; we're new to this area so that's a bonus.

I'll add one more element that picks up on the themes that @steph2000, @funkycamper, and @karin_mt in particular touched on (and maybe others): The genuine solutions will be systemic and our individual choices can only do so much.

If we reduce waste and carry our own grocery bags and bike to the farmers' market and all the rest and we don't demand real action from our elected officials, we won't get the changes we need. Those systemic changes--including things like zoning changes to allow more multi-family housing and ADUs so we make more efficient use of the land that already has roads and sewers and utilities--will carry some of the same "waaaah, I can't do what I've always done" sting that the individual changes carry. Gotta toughen up, Buttercup. Because without those changes there won't be very many future generations mining our waste out of landfills and cursing our profligacy. The planet is on fire and we're frogs in the warming water. And yes, I still plan to remodel my kitchen and buy some new things to do so. But they won't involve any child labor.

Thank you for your input, Barb! I think there's a lot to be learned from your approach. We can all slow down a bit and learn more about the impacts of our own choices. There are good options available, and you demonstrate that it can add more value and appreciation to your project when you do your best to tread lightly. Kudos to you!

One of the things I've done in the intervening 7 years is to learn a lot more about domestic quarries. If we can source the stone locally, that comes with lots of benefits (environmental, economic, social, logistic). I've been writing a series called American Quarries for the Natural Stone Institute, so people can learn more about local options. It's been really fun work!

Good luck on your kitchen project - sounds like you are in a good mindset to create a beautiful outcome!

@karin_mt Your articles sound very interesting. Trying to find them via Google search I learned the word "quarrier", which is new to me. I guess if you had asked what to call someone who operates a quarry I might have come up with it but I think it's more likely I would have said "Quarry operator?" with a questioning uptone at the end. I love words so thank you for this chance to learn a new one.