What do you find confusing?

Sounds pretty good. I would only add some drip caps and metal flashing to the detailing list.

Thank you. What i was confused about was the fact that their is absolutely no caulk or flashing tape at the bottom ?

A lot of homes i pass, i see flashing tape on all 4 sides of nail flange.

Water that finds it way in needs a way to exit through the bottom, which is why you wouldn't use flashing tape on the bottom I assume.

You would do more than assume here. That is correct.

The stuff where you see all 4 sides done up are new construction jobs with people hanging windows that don't know what they are doing.

Hey WoW I saw a video that showed some installers use a method called skip taping the bottom of the window, any thoughts?

No real benefit to that as long as the window is foamed from the interior.

Never, never, never, seal the bottom of the window. Moisture always gets in and it needs a place to escape. Gravity dictates that the bottom of the window is that place. The scary thing is that 90% of the homes I see going up are flashed incorrectly.

You won't believe how many new construction homes we see that are sealed up tight across the bottom. All doomed to be leakers in the future. Gotta love home builders.

I agree with both Grande and WoW about the bottom flashing, although I find the improper top flashing to be even more troubling. It's a regular occurrence to see the nailing fin of the window (and the head flashing) installed OVER the house wrap. BIG no-no.

How do you guys that install the vinyl inserts install the sill pan? From my experience tearing out these plastic inserts, most installers do very little to flash the existing frame/trim and just caulk the new insert into the old frame. Sometimes they tuck a piece of flimsy aluminum wherever they can but for the most part it's useless.

Inserts do not utilize a sill pan.

That's what I figured. I guess that's why if you're looking for a quality install you should steer your customers away from inserts and do full frame replacements like most reputable contractors do. That's actually a good advertising slogan for us builders, Plastic inserts:

All doomed to be leakers in the future. Gotta love window specialists..../

Logic and cost often dictates whether an insert is viable or cost effective. Either method done correctly will disperse water properly. If trying to say contractors who install inserts are subpar I'd have to disagree to the point of taking offense.

ksc36,

Are you saying that inserts are going to leak? Should we start notifying the millions of customers that have successfully gotten inserts that they are going to leak?

I have seen 10X more full tear out windows leak as compared to even poorly done inserts.

If you have good primary window that hasn't leaked before (especially in wood) an insert is a more than suitable option and actually a better option in many cases.

Are most reputable contractors doing new construction when they are doing these full frame replacements? How are they figuring on replacing the flanges from behind brick, stucco, aluminum siding, etc?

Todd said it well above in that both methods are viable and will result in a high quality, leak-free finished product when done properly, and unfortunately both methods have their share of hacks that do an improper job. I'd agree with WOW though, that while I highly recommend against "caulk and walk" type firms, I see SUBSTANTIALLY less harm in a poorly done insert than a poorly done new construction window. We replace 10-25 year old windows daily (full tearouts in many of these), and I don't believe I have found one properly installed yet. Sill pan? Lol. Ask 9 out of 10 builders and gc's what that is and you'll get bewildered, crossed eyes in return. As I mentioned in the post above, these guys can't even figure out how gravity and positive lapping of materials correlates with water tightness. Most have house wrap in the RO on all four sides. I can vouch for the fact that this problem is not "in the past " as well, as I regularly visits new builds that we furnish the windows for, and I make well sure that the builder and homeowner know the defects in the install.

To argue that someone that specializes in a given area would somehow be inferior to someone that offers a everything and the kitchen sink (pun intended), is just silly.

Kudos to you ksc if you happen to be a builder or Gc that knows how to properly install windows, but you are in the vast minority. I think we can all agree that many builders AND "caulk and walk" replacement installers are both doing their clients an injustice by a poor installation, and that both are more common that anyone would like to admit.

"We replace 10-25 year old windows daily (full tearouts in many of these), and I don't believe I have found one properly installed yet. Sill pan? Lol."

This is exactly my point. When you are done installing the insert, the window still doesn't have a sill pan and as you say, not one will be "properly installed".

In my area, I'm pretty sure 9 out of 10 contractors would know what a sill pan is. And from what I've seen, 99% of the plastic inserts I've ripped out were the "caulk and walk" variety. How do you properly flash an existing window frame when you install a plastic insert? And trust me, putting tape over the bottom flange doesn't cause a window leak, improper installation does.

A replacement relies on the existing water management system. You are absolutely correct, that if that existing system was done improperly and leaking, then a replacement would not be a good choice. This is something that a qualified professional can assess. Furthermore, replacements are far more common for older housing stock, which in its simplicity, did not have as many issues.

Not sure what your angle is here ksc. If you are upset that myself and other pros commented on the incompetence of most builders and Gc' at installing widows, I'm sorry, but it's true. If you aren't that guy, again, kudos to you. No reason to trump up an argument out of nothing. If I were you, I'd use that fact to your advantage when meeting potential clients. Nothing productive will come from carrying this on any further.

Cheers.

Ksc36 If a customer has old Windows that have never leaked it makes a lot of sense to leave the old window frame intact. Chances are if it hasn't leaked in 30 years it's not going to leak. If an insert is used and installed properly than it is a good solution for people who don't want to disrupt the interior and exterior of their home. Maybe you use full tear out as a way to up sell people into doing extra work on their home and if so that's a good selling g strategy if not a little sleazy. In the case where someone is remodeling the exterior a long with the Windows than sure full frame makes sense. Just so you know not all insert Windows are made of Plastic.

Also flashing the bottom of the window does not cause leaks, it does cause extensive sill rot though.

Trust me, I'm not upset, just getting a good laugh out of this exchange. So what have we learned here?

Inserts mounted in 30 year old frames with a 100% chance of having deficient flashing is the accepted practice of window specialists.

If the 30 year old frame doesn't show signs of leakage, there's a 100% chance that it will last another 30 years without visible signs of leakage.

If there are no visible signs of leakage, there must be no leaks, and won't be for another 30 years.

Contractors who do full frame replacements using proper flashing techniques, eliminating lead paint, repairing any compromised framing, properly insulating, and adding far greater value to the house than cheap looking plastic inserts do are up selling and in general, sleazy.

If the window is properly flashed but has a thin strip of tape on the bottom, it is doomed and will cause extensive sill rot.

If a contractor or builder doesn't use a sill pan on a new install he is a hack, but it's perfectly acceptable for a window specialists to install an insert in a 30 year old frame with deficient flashing and no sill pan because it saves money.

If a builder or contractor doesn't install a sill pan on a properly flashed and insulated new window, water will pass through the waterproof closed cell spray foam insulation, snake it's way down to the sill, and the window will be a doomed leaker.

Saving the customer money but maximizing profit slapping inserts into improperly flashed frames is OK, as long as you are a window specialists.

Window specialists know more about window installs so they don't need to worry about inferior flashing on the existing frame.

If a window specialist sees a bad flashing job on a new build, he reports to the homeowner that he can fix them by installing a new insert into the existing frame.

Never hire a GC or carpenter to install your windows because he knows how to do other simple building tasks.

Sincerly KSC

Retired window specialist

KSC,

How would you normally do a full tear out and flash a window that is behind aluminum siding, brick veneer, or stucco? What do you propose (as a full tear out) in those scenarios where the cladding cannot be removed and reset when it comes to flashing and flanged equip unit?

How about the full tear out option that pulls out a nailing flange and does not replace it?

Thanks.

"window specialist" is used very loosely here. ksc's comments appear to be directed at the sales and marketing companies that push out a high volume of replacement installs with little regard for quality of product or install. A window specialist is a person or company that is dedicated to using top quality products and best installation practices, regardless of whether it is a replacement or full tearout. Also determining which products and procedures are necessary and beneficial for each individual project. I would venture to guess that none of the former are taking the time to post here and help educate consumers. His post did get a good laugh though for sure.
Selling a full tear to someone that doesn't need it nor care about the added benefits and selling a replacement to someone that needs a full tear are equally sleazy.