How many cooks and do you do any baking?

Do you do any canning, gardening or other that requires you to process large amounts of dirty produce at one time? Likewise for fish, seafood, or game?

One or two cooks but rarely together. Wife prefers to cook alone and does bake monthly. I don't care either way, but I do like to cook but never bake.

We eat fresh food a lot but shopping is very close by. Very little processed, packaged food. Fish and meat but in small amounts. No real canning. Maybe some jam. As for cleaning lots of food at once, I had not thought of that as a priority. There is always the back yard :) That's where I shuck all the corn we buy.

It is not a large house and will probably never have a family of 6 living in it, 5 max, if that helps. It's an ideal house for 2 to 3. Entertainment scenarios, large dinner parties (8+), holidays, etc, will just have to take a back seat to using this kitchen on a daily basis.

I love U shaped kitchens, and you have the best type: U + an extra cabinet run on the open side. However, a U's strength is that it is perfect for a solo cook. That is, the floor space is small and the cabinetry is set up for one person. I don't think you're going to design a functional 4-6-cook kitchen in this space.

Could you open one wall, making one side into a peninsula? That'd give you a space for another cook to work from the opposite side.

I'll try to expand this a bit. I'm trying to figure out a layout that would work best for a family of 4 with one cook having 30 minutes to prepare a balanced meal using fresh ingredients. How should the prep sink be laid out in this kitchen on these counters?

I chose family of 4 having 30 minutes, one cook, because that best represents the every-day worst case for this house.

MsPete, I was referring not to 4-6 cooks but 4-6 persons in the house. Sorry for any confusion. Like I said, it's not a large house.

I prefer B as it gives you plenty of space on either side of the sink for work areas for basic food prep. A may suit better if the cook requires more room for more complicated prep.

B also leaves you a larger area next to the fridge which is useful to sort groceries, collect leftovers etc. to put in the fridge and for sorting and taking out food for meals.

As you use your current kitchen - consider how much space you are using and think about what would be ideal for average usage.

I like plan A. It gives you one long stretch of counter for a workspace. It also puts the sink with the window.

Plan A. If the design is mostly for one cook, one long 8 foot run of prep space is great. Two feet should be plenty for unloading the fridge before washing produce. You don't say if you're putting in upper cabinets, but even without a good view having the sink under the window keeps it open above the sink, which is nice. A secondary prep space can always occur by the cleanup sink.

I do a lot of scratch cooking as well and I find that prep work is far and away the most time and space consuming part of the process. While a lot of people talk about the value of a sink for prep, I find that most of my prep time is spent peeling, chopping, slicing etc... which demands countertop and not a sink. Washing the vegetables takes far less time than the other steps.

Long way of saying that I'd prefer A over B.

What about putting it in the corner? Here is Buehls corner prep sink.

I also liked what circuspeanut did using the space in a blind corner cab.

I loved the wood cover made for it too.

I loved this one because it is unique. Also has the little wood cover.

I had these images saved so just thought I'd throw out this idea?

I think of your other two plans, I'd lean towards B for the way I cook. I tend to get everything I need from fridge out at once, which I'd pile to the left of the sink. Then wash and chop to the right. I do like the idea of a big stretch of counter though as well. That's why I liked the idea of a corner sink with the added cover. :-)

Mspete - We thoroughly explored knocking down walls and ruled that out. The kitchen is fixed in place now. I still have the option of widening the arched opening at the bottom and playing around with that, but I can do that later.

blfenton - Thank you. That's exactly my dilemma :) i.e., balance the counter space or make one side bigger? I think baking in our household will always be secondary to cooking, but an uninterrupted 8+ foot counter between the sink and stove is very appealing. There is quite a bit counter in the rest of the kitchen. Would that help when baking (obviously, I'm not a baker)?

alexamorrie - I've had B as my working design for quite a while but I'm just not 100% sure. We currently have about 3 feet of counter to prep which is not ideal even cooking for two. Sorting groceries and leftovers will probably occur at the cleanup counter, which itself should be a nice place to work.

I see strong arguments for both:

A: Long uninterrupted counter that is the longest possible in this kitchen. Very flexible but unable to prep in fridge landing zone.

B: Nice landing zone for fridge, allowing prep on either side of the sink. Less moving of items when prepping smaller meals but much less flexible for complex cooking and for baking.

I think rebunky's corner sink idea solves the dilemma.

Rebunky - Thanks for the pics. So far I have hesitated on a corner sink because of the reach back into that corner. It's 10 inches deeper than a standard counter because of the jog in the wall. Even with jamming yourself against the corner it's hard to reach the back wall corner more than 2 feet up the wall. I just don't think it would work with storage to the ceiling there, especially when my sink will be 20 inches.

Jdez, mathteacher, marcosmqueen - yep, yep, yep, all good points. We have lived in this kitchen for a long time with no prep space or proper landing zones and have disliked it intensely, but I know cooking can occur in very small spaces and 8 feet of counter makes me wonder if we need all that space. We do have the cleanup counter, too, so that helps with two people in the kitchen.

So far, A is getting the most support. I honestly would be happy with either one but it's very helpful to hear what other people think.

I also like Rebunky's idea. Can you move the microwave over there, too? It seems to make more sense between the fridge and oven. Also made a few other changes....may not work, but it might help :)

On an aesthetic viewpoint - have you chosen your counter yet and if so what is it. Would it benefit from being shown off in one long uninterrupted beautiful piece.

My prep sink is in a corner but only because that placement allowed me more space between it and the range. I still like your Plan A.

Make sure you think about this with 3d people occupying the space. Someone standing at the range will block access to the first set of drawers on the right of the range. Someone standing at the sink in Lavender's plan will block access to the cabinets on the immediate right and left of the sink. In the "A" plan, they'll also block the cabinet on the right of the sink and with the "B" plan to the left of the sink. A good way to think of a person is a 24" square with occasional elbows poking out. Sometimes, you just have to pick your poison.

You might also try, just as a possibility, reversing the ref and the range. The drawing (in no scale what so ever) is of a possible ref wall if they exchange places, micro is in the corner.

The other thing to really think about is how the dishwasher will block what I guess is the entry to the dining area when its open. Personally, I'd have it block the back door instead.

LL, yeah, that corner sink is compelling, believe me, but we decided early on to put in a prep sink large enough to hold our largest pans, so that eliminates any round sink that would fit. It's going to have to be either one side or the other.

Microwave? The whole kitchen is designed so that two people can work in it without running into each other, using both ends of the room with the fridge as the anchor. I think the MW/speed/toaster oven needs to be on the cleanup wall for easy access from the rest of the house without disturbing anyone while cooking. That's just my opinion, though, and there may yet be a place for another mini-MW near the stove. Not sure yet. I saw you moved the cleanup stuff. That's another project to work out yet. A lot going on there with not a lot of room and traffic issues to deal with. I doubt the sink will end up centered on the window, but there are no direct sight lines from the rest of the house, so that helps with that.

blfenton - Hopefully soapstone, but if the price does not stop going up maybe not. Two years ago it was cheaper than granite. We always thought something darker in counters with light walls and simple lines, somewhat softened by occasional curves. The cabinet fronts will be from wood I own, fir, mahogany, white oak, western maple, or some lovely fruit cherry which does not turn dark that I would love to use. The rest of the house trim is clear VG fir in somewhat of a craftsman style. The house is 100 years old but in pretty bad shape aesthetically and mechanically, so time for a re-do :)

bmorepanic - thanks for your thoughts. It's even worse than you describe. Basically, everything is blocked by one person standing in the main cooking area. That is why we moved the entire cleanup to the west wall. The room size and shape is what now exists in the house and I can stand in the middle and easily grab the edge of the counter on the fridge side with one hand and put my other hand on the front burner of the stove. It's barely 5 feet.

That is why it's so important to get the prep sink location right. There is so little room that moving it 2 feet around the corner makes a huge difference in how the main cooking area functions. It goes from 5 plus 5 feet to 2 plus 8 feet of counter. I can't move on to the cleanup and secondary prep counter until I get this figured out.

Personally, I would vastly prefer Plan A. What you are calling an 8 foot counter, to me, is actually 4 feet of counter. The corners are bonuses for sure, but I can't stand front of them. I can drop things on them, but I can't work on them. The true working space -- where I would moving around and chopping and mixing -- is 4' long.

By the same logic, what you are calling two 5' counters is actually 3' and, what, 30"? The 30" part between the sink and range (the more important prep location) is really very small, and I would be inescapable up against the range on one side. That just seems a lot less fun than a 4' working counter between the sink and range.

Also, it is basically just as easy to drop stuff from the fridge directly between the sink and range. I wouldn't worry about the counter between the fridge and sink needing to be especially large. If you have too much coming out of the fridge to fit directly next to it, you'd drop that stuff between the sink and range instead.

Also, I find that the look of long, unbroken counter makes a kitchen seem bigger. Might have a nice visual effect to do Plan A, in additional to a functional one.

Jillius - Thanks for your input. I know you have been following this kitchen for awhile. I am leaning towards A even though I had originally chosen B in the last go around here. I have to comment on the "chopping and mixing". Bear with me as I have paid attention to this over the last six months while working in our kitchen while thinking about the new kitchen. Your chopping and mixing space is really only 24 inches. Both chopping and mixing require you to stay within your center of gravity. So technically, the 8 foot counter, even though you can only stand in front of 4 feet of it, gives you a lot more combinations of counter storage with chopping and mixing than would two 5 foot runs of counter.

This makes a lot of sense to me now, and you are right that moving stuff to and from the fridge is a relatively minor issue, which I was making out to be more important in my mind mainly because of what we have to do currently at the fridge (horrible!). Yet, most everything I can think of from the fridge for any weekly meal we might cook would fit on a 24 inch length of counter.

I was thinking about your plan. I can see what you mean with the corner sink with that wall jetting back.

I had some time to play around with your layout this evening. I am obviously an amateur at this, but I am "trying" to learn. :-) I have only attempted a couple drawings, so I am sure it has many mistakes and not to scale! I found your other thread for the dimensions so hope they are not completely off!

I was thinking of how you could make the kitchen feel more open and spacious. When you said you could almost span your arms from the fridge to the stove, I was not loving that. As was brought out above, it is really only about four feet of moving room with a range and a fridge opening into it. I cannot stand feeling trapped or crowded upon while cooking and I can envision that happening in the "U" area if someone else wanted to get into the fridge.

I also wasn't liking the dw sort of blocking either doorways.

I saw this picture in another thread and thought how perfect it would work somewhere in your space. You could use it like an island if you wanted to prep while looking out a window. Just spin it however you want. I put it next to dw but think you could put it where ever you want. So cool!

So here's my pathetic drawing if you can even read it. Haha! Don't worry you won't hurt my feelings if you don't like it. I had fun playing anyways. I thought that 10" recessed wall would be good to put the fridge so it doesn't stick out as far into the room, especially on the narrow side of the room. Plus, it doesn't open up into the "L" shaped prep/cooking area. Even though this might be slightly less cabinets/counters, I think it would feel so much bigger.

I am sure whatever you decide will look great in your beautiful historic home!

I've been visualizing working in both your proposed layouts, Doug, and I wonder if you wouldn't benefit from moving the range out of the corner a bit. How wide is the counter between the range and the door? Of course, you want decent landing space there and a barrier so someone walking through the door doesn't somehow get splattered and burned. I think the recommended minimum is 15" but I think something like 20" is more useful. I don't think you need any more than that on that side. Unless, of course, it's due to needing the storage.

Anyway, I bring it up because someone prepping on that back wall can really only work on about half that long counter without getting into the space of the cook. I know you and your wife rarely cook together but this may change or if you do sell someday, it might be nice to plan for two cooks. So I just think if you could move the range to the right a tad, it really gives the prep and cook more clearance for their standing/working space. Hope that makes sense.

Whether you can move the range or not, I prefer option A. I am one that usually gets all of my stuff out of the fridge at the same time and, for the most part, everything could be piled on the 24" between fridge and sink allowing me to wash and move washed items to the right where they will be prepped. The prepper just needs to turn 90 degrees and start prepping. Very convenient, imho. I really couldn't come up with any scenario where I would need more space to the left of the sink and less to the right.

I agree with Jillius that the long expanse of counter on that back wall without a sink breaking it up will also just make your kitchen look and feel bigger.

I think both of your sinks would benefit from having cutting boards that fit over your sinks so if you do find yourself with a big project require more counter space, you can create that option. I would do ones that are split so you can cover just half the sink or the entire sink depending on what works best for that specific cooking project. It's nice to have options.

Rebunky - Thank you for that. Very kind of you to take the time. Your design is very good for where you placed everything. We tried variations of this design but could not fit a regular size fridge in that space. It covers the window, and a counter depth is not in the budget, unfortunately. Plus that jog is 48" wide and what do you do with the remaining space? There's too little to do much but too much to waste. The main thing that would bother me, however, is we would lose so much counter space by not not utilizing the north wall. One thing I've learned in living with a small kitchen is that counter space is the highest priority. It trumps everything.

We will mitigate the closed in feeling you mentioned at the U end of the kitchen by use of shelves and wall hangers. This is why few of my plans include uppers. Both of us are non-traditional thinkers and will be fine with shelving replacing a lot of the uppers, and that will open up the kitchen a lot, although it is a trade-off with a more cluttered, or should I say "industrial" look? We have some shelving now and dust is not a problem (at least when I'm not remodeling :), plus we will have pretty good air filtering when the HVAC system is finished and no carpeting in the house (yet another reason to keep the kitchen closed off as it would be extremely noisy with no carpets). As bmorepanic said above, you have to pick your poison.

I'm an amateur too. No need to apologize. This is the first kitchen I've ever designed with actual skin in the game. Plus, I'm a guy and that makes me extra ignorant when it comes to kitchens :) All the advice I get here is extremely helpful. I've learned so much by doing just what you did, jumping in and trying something.

Thanks, funky. The cabinet right of the range is 30". I have left the option open for moving the range a bit. It will depend on 1) storage required for the range 2) how the cleanup area gets configured and 3) where the microwave or "speedy cooker" gets placed. I'm having trouble thinking in terms of just a microwave with all these other options coming available now :)

The only way two cooks can work in this kitchen will be to use the U counter for one and the cleanup counter for the other. I just don't see how anyone can use it any other way no matter how friendly they are (unless they are dating, of course :) It's still literally three steps from one area to the other.

rmtdoug - you said "One thing I've learned in living with a small kitchen is that counter space is the highest priority. It trumps everything."

That statement = Plan A.

Funkycamper does have a good point for you to consider about moving the range out of the corner a bit. Having said that, 30" wide drawers is a really nice useful size to have for pots and pans. How far do you have the range currently planned to be from the corner. You may need a filler in the corners for the drawers on the long-counter wall so that they don't hit the handle of the range when pulled out.

I had a range that was directly in the corner, and I went to a LOT of trouble to move it five inches over. It doesn't sound like much, but it made HUGE difference.

I don't know how much space is planned between the range and the corner, but if it's less than 5 inches, for sure move it slightly farther from the corner. (A foot would be ideal, but somewhere between 5" and 12" would be fine too.)

The natural instinct as a cook is to stand squarely in front of the range, and when it is directly in the corner, you feel smushed (smooshed?) against the corner when standing directly in front of the range. So you move yourself over a step to get yourself out of the corner, and then you are no longer standing centered on your range, and it feels SUPER awkward.

Perhaps if I weren't right-handed (ours was set up as yours is, where someone standing in front of the range who takes a step to the side to get physically away from the corner would place themselves farther to his/her right). A left-handed person would have easier access to all four burners in that situation, but I was always twisting in an uncomfortable way to keep myself out of the corner but still use the range.

I plan to put vertical pan storage in the corner to the left of the range, between 9 and 12 inches. Whatever space remains will hold the range and cabinet on the right. The space under the corner itself will have storage that opens to the stair landing behind that wall. We are building with no wasted space anywhere.

Rmtdoug- thank you for your kind feedback. I can relate to your "skin in the game" comment. Btdt! It is such a huge investment, not only monetarily, but emotionally!

I was wondering about the window. I moved it over to fit the regular size fridge, but wasn't sure if that was possible.

I was thinking maybe that rolling cart could have those hinged sides that flip up and would make up for the loss of the north side counter. But, I completely understand your feeling that a fixed long stretch of counter space trumps everything.

Having mostly open shelves will look great. Perfect with your vintage home. Cannot wait to see which of those gorgeous woods you choose.

In reading everyone's pros and cons as to the prep sink, I think I'm convinced that your plan A makes the most sense now. Having that one uninterrupted countertop you love is definately the way to go.

I am glad to hear you plan a tray storage to bring the range out from the corner. It did look pretty "smooshed" :-)

I will look forward to seeing your kitchen reveal. If possible, it is really fun to see the progress as you go as well. Keep us posted!

You are welcome, rebunky. I agree, A is the best plan going forward. I feel less heavy now. Had I not started this thread, I would have gone with B and would have missed the flexibility of A.

I will start working on cabinets and storage through the summer. Once I have something, I will post another thread in a couple of months. Hopefully I will have the cleanup counter figured out by then. I guess I need to go study the ergonomics of unloading dishwashers ;)

Thank you, again, everyone. Every bit of input was very helpful.

Glad you're going with A and will have the tray storage to left of range. Looking forward to seeing your cabinets!

Do keep us posted. I'm looking forward to seeing your kitchen progress.

Hi ... Did you ever post any pictures of your finished kitchen?