....this space is too small.....



:)

I agree, I got a little sick of people who were not even willing to give me a basic ballpark price. I get it --there are lots of variables, but I am not asking for a specific quote, just a "range" so that I can put together a basic budget. I started to realize anyone who was not willing to give me a price range was going to try and upsell me, and wanted to get into my home so they could try and "sell" me. Not interested. I always went with the tradespeople who put their itemized pricing up front.

I'm frustrated with the scheduling.

I got on my GC's list over a year ago and asked him to start the first week in April so the kids and I could go out of town (spring break) for demo. And the work would have been nearly done by the end of the school year.

Instead it started in mid-may so now we are all dancing around each other--more than once I have been confronted with can you all be out of the house for x hours today while floor refinishing is going on or electrical work will be happening in every room today (we are having all the knob and tube in the house replaced and some holes from the old heating system patched while they are here.).

If this was during the school year, it would be pretty easy. But now I'm stuck decamping on very short notice with a twelve year old and a five year old in tow. By the end of the day I am so fried from trying to manage the five year old on a non-stop round of park, out to lunch, swim, early dinner, run an errand to kill more time. . . .

I always give potentials a ballpark estimate; it's part of qualifying them.

As a GC I know that my own drywaller/[plasterer would insist on a site visit. The amount of work (and plaster volume) involved can vary HUGELY depending on how heavily textured the popcorn ceilings are. If the popcorn has a fairly low profile, skimming it with mud is fairly straightforward. If it more heavily textured, it may take multiple applications of mud to fill it. And if it's very heavily textured, installing new drywall over it (or ripping it out entirely and installing new drywall) may be the only practical solution. So very different time, cost and material scenarios, depending.

Well I have a few.... gripes...

First: KD... priced out a kitchen, we removed $2000 in cabinets, price went up $300.

Second: Contractor, sent by a friend, quoted double other contractors

Third: Contractor came, saw, sent bid, never heard from again

Fourth: insuranceclaimcheck.com, if you don't know what that is, hope that you never do.

We eventually (through a friend that owns a high-end masonry business) found a guy charging a reasonable hourly rate for the all the non-code work. Found a plumbing guy that bid half the others... an electric guy that bid 1/4 of the others.. and an HVAC guy to completely run new duct for under $500. I trust them all based on who recommended them (previously mentioned friend I went to high school with and lives down the road). We definitely have benefited by that whole "it's not what you know but who you know" adage.

I will say that for most projects people like to see any potential issues before giving a number. Ballpark perhaps, but let me give a reason why they aren't helpful. Had one guy give me a "ballpark", only to come out and see the job and quote me double.... lol. He called back later and said he'd honor his previous "ballpark", but that ship had sailed. When he said "it's weird that your island is a different color than your main cabinets"... that told me.. oh boy.. you don't do this much or for higher end clientele. lol

I got personal recommendations for everyone I used.

The one guy I only used online reviews for was the best. I should go write a nice review...

@ eric, sounds like your experience with insuranceclaimcheck.com was no better than mine. They have been THE most frustrating people I have ever dealth with.

@mdln It was frustrating. However, I wrote a letter indicating that I was acting as the general contractor and them requiring me to use insuranceclaimcheck was a hindrance to resolving the damage and how the scope of the repairs had drastically changed (from replacing floors to a kitchen remodel, and the fact we were adding significant funds to the project). By doing this, they released all my funds to me and are only asking for a final inspection. It took many phone calls, and caused much frustration before talking to the right person who informed me of this option. As our claim was over $10k, it was monitored, but one representative just told me to write a letter and if they approved, the funds would be released. Luckily, persuasive writing is a forte of mine.

@eric, unfortunately my $250K claim has required numerous lengthy phone calls and letters. You cannot send them an email, calling & talking to them was more often than not a waste of time, it seemed like I was talking to robots with not IQ and never the same robot. Your statement "hope you never do" is right on.

250k, yeah.... no letter is getting those funds.

I just want to clarify - would never hold someone to a "ballpark" they made over the phone It's just sometimes us civilians have zero idea what something would cost, like absolutely zero, and so it's impossible to budget or plan. When we don't get a ballpark from business, we have no choice but to go onto the internet and are getting our quotes from chatrooms, dubious internet articles, etc. in order to put together the most basic budget.

Or you could have 3 contractors come give bids... that would tell you. Probably the only way to truly budget it.

I'll certainly be taking that approach if in upcoming years my husband and I decide to pursue a bathroom remodel or adding a 3 season porch like we are tossing around. But some simpler tasks seem like they should be ballpark-able.

It would save so much time ... some people work on such different pricing models it seems like it would save time to be able to cross em out by phone or email, on our parts and theirs.

See, and while you are vetting potential clients, they are vetting you back, as it should be. I want to know the person I'm speaking to does enough of the work that he or she can provide similar examples and costs easily.

Kimberly N:

I had a good laugh the other day. A potential client told me he wasn't hiring me because I "did not have enough experience" to remodel his bathroom.

"the guy on the website has all these certifications, experience and insurance, etc., but then he is 'too busy' quoting to labor now, so when the guy comes to do the actual work, he is practically a teenager."

Ugh, I hate when this happens. I think from now on we will ask about this ahead of time and turn the "son" away if he shows up to do the work.

"See, and while you are vetting potential clients, they are vetting you back, as it should be".

"That's what we have to discover together, without wasting each other's time."

Exactly. If someone can be honest and upfront with me from the get-go, I feel like they will be honest and upfront throughout. I don't hire people who seem to dance around direct questions, like what would an 8 foot straight run of X material cost, on average, installed? That shouldn't be a difficult conversation that requires me to take vacation hours from my job to meet someone in middle of the day.

ETA - I am not a "hater" btw - 90% of the trades we worked with on our project were fabulous, hardworking, honest people who did quality work and charged a fair (not cheap) price.

This seems to be a common dilemma.

--Builders/remodelers say the best customer is knowledgeable and focused and knows the approximate budget.

--Customer wants to be knowledgeable, focused, and know the approximate budget.

But where is the customer to get the information that builders/remodelers want us to have for the first conversation or meeting? It makes sense that professionals don't want to give away all details and trade secrets for free, and don't want to waste time giving quotes and estimates for customers that aren't serious. But then how will your ideal customer come to the table with the knowledge and the budget that you want them to have? I don't know what the solution is, but there should be one!

@Joseph

Respectfully, it doesn't show disregard for the contractors time; it shows a respect for my budget (especially when you call and they say "I'd like to come take a look and give you a bid"). It is my opinion that 3 bids should be received for any work to be done unless you have intimate knowledge of what it should cost. Otherwise you run the risk of significantly overpaying for a project. Getting 3 bids shows prudence, in my opinion. Of course, your feeling is different because A) you're a contractor, and B) you give "ballparks" over the phone. That is not common practice. I would also suggest that if those 3 bids vary by a margin more than 10% that you get additional bids to substantiate the others. There's a balance between quality and affordability and they generally meet kindly somewhere in the middle. Also, even dealing with personal recommendations you cannot be sure that you're getting the right price (as shown in my initial comment).

Lavenderlass, ouch. Thought this was a vent thread, not a chastisement thread.

"the guy on the website has all these
certifications, experience and insurance, etc., but then he is 'too
busy' quoting to labor now, so when the guy comes to do the actual work,
he is practically a teenager."

Ugh, I hate when this happens. I think from now on we will ask about
this ahead of time and turn the "son" away if he shows up to do the
work.

I wish I had done this when we had hardwood floors installed. I got a great recommendation from my boss, saw the work in his house, and got what I felt was a reasonable estimate from an experienced installer. His kid showed up to do the work - and brought a helper that they hired that week (never done floors before). The owner never showed up at our house; at one point the helper was the only one there. The project included hardwood stairs (formerly carpeted); he did such a horrible job on the stairs that the owner had to come out and do them over. His work was not a whole lot better.

Since then I've learned a lot about getting the quality of work I've paid for. I do a better job of vetting contractors. And I am willing to pay more (if necessary) for someone who takes pride in their work.

Just had close to 800 sq ft of popcorn removed from , then all new drywall added over, 1923 plaster ceilings. Cracked everywhere. I don't believe he could have given us any kind of realistic estimate without coming to the house. I didn't get multiple estimates, but used him because GC we've used on three other major projects is using him and that was good enough for me. We were dealing with 90+ year old ceilings and it would have given me pause if he hadn't wanted to lay eyes on them before talking $$$

I get what you are saying clueless, but I know that I have perfectly typical 1980 drywall popcorn ceiling, low profile, no cracking, and I could easily take a picture that would show it in detail. And my area has scads of 1980 homes, it should be completely familiar to experienced workers. I also know that a spray bottle and a spatula gets it off easily enough. (I'd do it myself, I really would, but I'm only 5 ft tall and I have to go way farther up a ladder than I'm comfortable.) A few questions back and forth could clear it up. Just as a few questions back and forth would let someone know that your project absolutely required eyes.

" It is my opinion that 3 bids should be received for any work to be done unless you have intimate knowledge of what it should cost. Otherwise you run the risk of significantly overpaying for a project."

Nonsense. The marketplace prevents me from charging significantly more than what the market will bear. I can't have a file cabinet full of satisfied customers and be overcharging. I'm not interested in giving you a price, I'm interested in seeing if you'd like to join the other satisfied customers in my file cabinet.

We got three bids on our master bathroom remodel two years ago. Low was about 22k. High was 70k. We were not paying 70k even though the guy seemed otherwise to be a solid choice (good references, licensed, insured, pleasant to work with). Of the lower two, one did not listen to anything I said and drew a completely different and less functional floor plan without giving any reason for not using the floor plan I suggested. No. The other said we'll demo and then we will know the exact dimensions and decide on the floor plan. No way.

So we got two more bids. Both between 22k and 25k. Both seemed solid. We went with the lower bid because he was available sooner and had excellent references from neighbors--I was able to see his work a couple of years after it was finished.

Btw, I specified the same materials for all of the GCs and showed them the same floor plan and said that's what we were thinking but we wanted to be sure it met code and if they saw problems with it to let us know.

If we had not gotten multiple bids and the 70k guy had been the first we contacted, we would have either overpaid by 38k or not done the project. Well, really we just wouldn't have done the project because we didn't have that much money to spend on that project alone and it wouldn't have made sense in terms of adding value to the house.

How the heck is anyone supposed to proceed without getting bids?

@ Crl_: people with either too much money or not enough sense would be my assumption.

@ Joseph: You propose that you cannot charge more than the market will bare, then how do you justify at least two of us receiving inflated bids? People charge what they want to charge. Some contractors just work more than others. There's no set formula on how much things cost (with the exception of insurance work), so suggesting that homeowners just take the first bid and not "waste contractor's time" is a little short-sighted. While you're not interested in giving a price, the homeowners generally are. It's kind of the reason why HOAs generally have a 3 bid minimum written into their bylaws. We'll just have to agree to disagree (which it seems you're standing alone atm), because I will continue to receive multiple bids to ensure my hard-earned money is being as well-spent as possible.

Check out Joe's thread on the Remodeling forum. His comparison of the helpful homeowner with a Labrador puppy had me laughing. And I've been that puppy!!! LOL

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3164098/one-of-us-has-got-to-go?n=9

There is a roofing company that does a LOT of work in our neighbourhood. When our roof was leaking we called them plus two other companies to quote. Long story short, the company that does a lot of work in the hood spent almost 2 hours on our roof and gave us a quote of $14,000. The other two companies spent no time on the roof (think binoculars from the driveway) and each quoted $2,000. We ended up calling a home inspector at a fixed hourly rate who went up on the roof with me right behind him. His solution was a buy a can of tar and apply "here, here and there plus some nails in a couple other locations." Less than $20 and the problem was solved. In addition to that, he didn't want to charge me because the problem and solution was so apparent it took him no more than 10 minutes to diagnos. 10 years later we've had no more leaks and an extra $14,000 to put towards our new kitchen. Good thing we didn't go with the first (or second or third) quote!

After talking to over 20 GCs, this space is not big enough to vent. Half were referred. All had glowing reviews. 5 never showed to appt. 1 called 60 days later and asked if I was still interested after no show. 4 never sent estimate. 4 never returned first phone call despite my citing the referrer on message.

One GC quit the next day after talking to the city inspector because despite his 11 yrs as a structural engineer, he was clueless. I hired a separate engineer who spent 2 mins reviewing my kitchen and wrote a report that satisfied city.

Two GCs was honest enough to tell me that they don't want to bid unless I include cabinets and it would be around $60k for cabs plus their percentage.

Most over inflated their bids once they find out my address.

One quoted me $44k to do cosmetic work on my powder room.

One quoted $25k for repiping.

My current GC miscalculated my wiring need for W/D so I'm having the GW people help me fix.

I don't trust my current GC to handle shower rebuild so I'm going thru another round of GCs. So far, I know more about shower construction and concrete issues than the ones I've talked to.

sherri1058, your story reminds me of the time my car's driver's side mirror cracked. I was a broke student so cost was a big issue for me. I called the dealer that sold me the car and talked to the repair shop. They gave an estimate of over $200 because they said they had to replace the entire side mirror. I called another repair shop in town, same story. Somehow I got the idea to call a glass shop and ask them. They quoted me under ten dollars. I was astonished and she assured me that it included tax. They cut a new piece of glass and glued it on top. It worked perfectly for the several more years that I owned the car. Sure did pay off to get more than one estimate!

@Beachem - You called 20 GCs for one project?? I would have to say that is pretty excessive. I am curious to know how on earth you would have attempted to meet with them had they all responded. Were you planning to book a conference room somewhere? Or take a two-week vacation from work to have one-on-ones with each of them?

Part of the reason you failed to get much uptake, I suspect, is the GCs sensed you were shopping the project widely, which is a recipe for the big brush-off. Certainly it is with me. Anytime I have been called in for a site visit and a bunch of other contractors are there, I feel - well, gee, thanks for wasting my time and for showing so much personal interest in getting to know me and my work.

This is very much a relationship business and you're definitely on the wrong foot to build a relationship with the kind of scattershot approach you seem to have employed in the attempt to find good people to work with.

....All that being said, you did get some horrendously high quotes there!

Kimberly N - yep, I would imagine yours would be a bit more cut and dried!

" I also know that a spray bottle and a spatula gets it off easily enough."

Now I'm feeling guilty for not doing it myself, but I had visions of chunks of plaster falling on our heads - ask me how I know...

@ Homereborn. As I said above, 9 basically were flakes and I never met with them. I wasn't trying to quote a bunch of people, I was talking to 3 each time at most. I was told by KDs and insurance that I didn't need a GC. I looked for GCs after the city came in on inspection of repipe and demanded a full kitchen remodel permit for my flood repair.

I spent 3 months looking for a GC who can take over the kitchen remodel and deal with the questions that inspector had on the concrete trench in kitchen for repipe. I finally acted as my own GC and create the plans necessary to apply for a permit after a very good GC who was out of my budget was upfront and honest with me that the GCs make most of their profits on the cabinets. He told me that the GCs weren't interested unless the cabinets were guaranteed and those who quoted factored in extra profits.

I'm not using the current GC because my bathroom scope went up from basic cosmetic remodel to a full rebuild after we discovered more water damage when we demo flooring. He has no experience with barrier free showers so I'm trying to find qualified contractors with experience.

I'm screening new GCs out pretty quickly by just asking how they were planning to handle the shower build. Considering that it has to be approved by the city planning commission, I don't want inexperienced people or be the practice case.

I was looking for a relationship with a dependable GC especially since I still have 4 huge remodel projects planned. Frankly, for the future projects at this point, I'm planning to hire the GC who was upfront with me about how the other GCs viewed the cabinet charges once his schedule was open.

A perfect example of a situation where a phone bids is reasonable. ..

Move AC unit 8 feet down side of house from patio to location off patio. Unit remained within code distance from power source. Needed fake concrete pad, plumbing extension supplies, unit would need to be recharged.

AC unit model provided. Photo provided. Seriously, I'm moving the thing 8 ft away from its current location. Oh, and it's newer construction, 2 years old.

I called 10 places to get a verbal ballpark because I wanted to be sure we had the money free for a non essential nice to do yard improvement.

Only ONE gave me a ballpark. .. $500 plus freon. He got the job. I work full time and getting out of work to wait for late contractors isn't in my plan for such a small job. I paid $684.

I didn't know if the job should have cost 500 or 2000. I didn't know what was involved. It took the guy about 3 hours to do the job.

Popcorn huh? Are you certain it was built without asbestos? In my neighborhood they bid the job (icludes breathtaking 200% healthy profit margin) they don't do "time and materials".... irritation at the bids/site visits....doesn't describe my thoughts...but in the contractors' defense many people lie!

Yep. One of my first steps before anything else was having it lab tested (ergo: spatula). As well as the soffit drywall. That is one result of watching all that Property Brothers and Love it or List it ... test the materials *before* you start the reno. (Though I suppose it makes better tv drama than real life drama.)

We gave our electrician a spreadsheet that specified things down to the part number. He felt free to let his supplier make whatever substitutions he felt like based on what was in stock. This is for things that were not in anyone's critical path, but that you see every day. Sure I specified a matte black switchplate with no visible screws, but would be satisfied with a shiny black one with screws on the front. And as we all know, all whites and off-whites are more or less the same, right? Would you not think that someone who gave you part numbers that include color specs maybe cares about the results? And if you flick the bathroom fan on and it works for one second, it's probably fine. (Unless you leave it on for 10 seconds and find it cycles off and on every 5.) Also, he was impressive in person, but set the B Team, as far as I can tell.

"How about you all? Frustrations? Need a safe space to get petty without people hollering "first world problems" at you? Please reply here."

I just got a 2.0 rating from a customer out of a possible 5 with a note that I "was not very neat."

Before I would begin this job, I informed the customer that I had no way of preventing removed pool grout from falling into the pool. Since he did not want the expense to drain and refill his pool, he assured me repeatedly that he had state-of-the-art pool filtration and that the sunken grout would be no problem whatsoever. I hosed off his pool deck at completion; he made no complaints, was very pleased, and paid in full.

What the hell else could I do? Write the warning in the blood of his first born male child? Print it on his forehead? I told him what would happen, he told me not to worry, it happened just as I predicted and he wants to second-guess.

Arrruuuggggg!!!

That is unfair, he should have addressed the issue with you directly.

That must be so frustrating Treb.

crl:

It is frustrating, but that's why I'm always urging folks to look at how a contractor responds to online complaints. A guy that has none is a liar. You can only tell the truth and hope that the sophistication level of the customers you want allow them to sort it out.

You'd be amazed at how many people read my reviews and responses and take my side when I arrive to do their job. Or compliment me on my response. Or ask "What was with the lady with the caulk?"

Eye roll. Shoulder shrug. Do job, pick up check, add another happy one.

I will say that a good GC is very valuable but the process of finding the ONE is stressful.

I miss my old GC so much. 15 yrs over 3 houses but darn it, he refuses to come out of retirement and it had to happen last year. He's currently gallivanting all over with a camera as he explores the career he always wanted.

In defense of the good apples, I spoke to another GC today and he actually listened to what I said the project is about. He understood my explanation on the complexity of post tension slabs and city regulations instead of rolling over me.

He was upfront that he hadn't done any barrier free shower and that my project was too complex but gave me referrals to one colleague that has experience. I appreciate that sort of honesty.