Cici,

What is your opinion of insecticidal soap?

Since I have never used neem oil before, I bought the premixed kind. I have already gone through the bottle because we have about 10 or so different plants (6 of them are dahlias) on our little deck.

I have sprayed twice. Well, 3 times now because one of my open buds had little bugs crawling all over it (we had about 5 days of rain last week). I am not sure if I should buy the concentrate of neem oil or if insecticidal soap is okay to use)

I had some black spiders invade last week. I don't think they are mites and the I have checked the bottoms of the leaves and they don't feel gritty. The thrips did some damage through. I alternated with giving my babies a shower every other day with some original Dawn dish liquid. It has seemed to help as I do not see anymore spiders and have not seen any more larvae for the thrips. I am checking everyday.

I am going to have to get over it and realize that if I want to grow dahlias and garden, it will be something I will have to manage living here in the mountains.

Also, it is ever too early to neem my plants?

Rather than spend money on Neem oil, why not consider buying an azadirachtin product - the active ingredient found in neem? Azamax, while spendy will provide a much more concentrated dose of the highly effective neem ai. You may also want to consider using Monterrey's Garden Insect spray as it contains the potent spinosad A & B insecticide. I spray a combination of the two and have found that I have no insect pest issues of any real consequence. Through proper maintenance, consistent watering, balanced nutrition and periodic preventative spray applications such as those previously mentioned you should not have thrip or any other insect pest plaguing your planting. Additionally, be careful with soap - horticultural or otherwise. As detergents they are highly effective in removing the leaf's waxy cuticle which can result in a phyto-toxic response. It is also clear that soaps when applied in hot weather tend to result in damage. Frankly, temps above 78F find me reluctant to add horticultural soap to my spray mix. Too many times I have returned to the spray site and discovered burnt leaves as a consequence. I also highly recommend that you invest in a quality sprayer. I use the Solo products and have done so for decades with tremendous results. The two gallon hand pump Solo 430-2G is a great sprayer. Durable and affordably priced...it's a must have for any serious gardener. Lastly, I'd be remiss if I didn't also suggest using Dyna-gro's ProTeKt product. It is a concentrated form of a potassium silicate supplement which is widely regarded for its ability to strengthen the cell walls which lends itself to a better defense against pests piercing, sucking and chewing on your plants. I add this product to my insecticide spray mix along with a low dose of a balanced liquid feed containing the minor elements in chelated form. I hope you find this useful.

I'm not familiar with the azadirachtin product Gary is referring to, so I'll have to check it out for myself. I'm not liking the 'spendy' comment, though. ;-). 'Thrifty' is more my style.

A 16 oz bottle of Neem Oil concentrate is around fifteen bucks, and mixes with water. It does require a sprayer, which will cost you 10 to 15 bucks. I recommend buying two if you spray herbicide, and clearly mark which-is-which to avoid painful mistakes. I have used neem oil on itty-bitty cuttings with no problems, so I would say that there is not a 'too early' marker. This oil is best used as a preventative, though... If the grower waits until the problem is intense, neem oil will probably disappoint you. It's deterrent properties is mightier then its curative properties when it comes to nasty bugs and Powdery Mildew.

Personally, I stay away from systematic insecticide with spinosad. This effects the nervous system of bees and other beneficial insects like lady bugs and preying mantis that prey on the nasty bugs, making the garden dependent on the next dose to avoid being overrun by a wave of the nasty bugs. Spraying at night helps reduce exposure, but it is still found in pollen and the nasty bugs that chomp on the poisoned plant which is in turn eaten by a predator bug. But this is highly disputed, depending on who you talk to, and each grower has to come to terms on what they choose to spray. Just make that decision knowing both sides of the story through research, and not through ignorance.

Insecticidal soaps- I defer to Gary on this, as I haven't used it beyond a squirt of dish soap for its emulsifier and surfactant qualities with liquid fertilizers. I have had no bad results from my use of soap in solution, except for once when I sprayed during noon on a sunny day a few years back. That is a silly thing to do, regardless of what you'r spraying!

[smiles]...The judicious application of biological insecticides requires a thorough understanding not only of the product, but, how it affects our environment. Azadirachtin is the active ingredient found in the neem seed. It has many forms of efficacy and does a superb job when used as a preventative. Spinosad is highly toxic to bees. So, to spray directly onto a bee will result in that bee dying. I'm not sure what is meant by a "systematic insecticide with spinosad." Spinosad is a by-product of fermentation and while it is regarded as systemic, it is highly selective on what it is known to be effective. It is also short lived and breaks down into basic elements readily digested by soil biota. Neem oil which contains azadirachtin and is also considered systemic is slow moving and is not very soluble in water. While many people prefer not to spray, I am not one of them. But, I do have extensive experience in this realm of modern plant chemistry and only offer my opinion in support of the eager sharing that goes on in this forum. There is a distinction between horticultural soaps and dish-washing liquid. The problem with the dish-washing liquids are that they possess detergents and solvents that dissolve fats, waxes, etc. It is also illegal to use a product not labelled for a purpose other than its label directs. Last time I read the Dawn label it did not list spray adjuvant as one of its uses. I can't imagine the Dept. of Justice swooping down on the gardeners of America and arresting those who are in violation of the law. Frankly, there are very effective spray adjuvants sold over the retail counter which out perform dish soap. Horticultural soaps contain forms of alcohol used as a diluent. This is another factor to consider when making application with this type of insecticide. As cici aptly pointed out, timing is essential. Lastly, I come in here to share and read and contribute. I share my experience in the hope it will be useful for others trying to solve a problem. There are many ways to get to yes no matter if you step with your right or left foot, first. Cheers.

Gads, I'd love to sit down with you for a few hours in person, Gary! It's tough to respond/ask everything from each of your posts in the little time I have. Please know that I enjoy reading what you write, and any disagreement is purely in the interest of continuing/expanding the discussion.

Very glad to hear that it's not likely that I'll be fined for improper use of soap, I have to say. Since it works for me, and I have it on hand, I doubt I'll be buying a substitute any time soon.

My understanding of systematic sprays is that it is absorbed into the plant system, delivering the poison OR deterrent through the plant's tissue/parts (roots, leaves, pollen, stem). This is the first I've ever heard Neem oil fall into that category... I always thought it just suffocated the smaller nuisance bugs and made the plant taste bad to the bigger bugs.

I just ran out, so I'll check on the price difference of Neem and Adzadir...(sp?) when I go to reorder it online. I'm assuming it helps prevent powdery mildew, as well as deter infestations?

Thank you for your kind reply. You are using systematic and I believe meaning, systemic. A systemic pesticide is one absorbed by the plant and undergoes a variety of means by which it will translocate. By the way, not all systemics translocate beyond their point of entry. While azadirachtin is considered to be fungicidal, and it is recognized that Neem oil maintains the same potential, it is not my go-to choice when dealing with the powdery mildew fungi. Here in Oregon we contend with over 5 different species of powdery mildew. And, I am told that they can happen altogether on the same plant. Some are more resistant to others and thereby make it a huge challenge to control. This season I started using Serenade - Garden Fungicide. It contains a strain [QST 713] of Bacillus subtillis. It is considered to be a preventative which implies you must apply it before you detect an actual outbreak. While my gardening neighbors are complaining of the early on-set of this disease, my susceptible plants are symptom free. I attribute this to a number of factors such as soil health, proper cultivar selection and sanitation along with balanced fertility and water management...But, I do recognize that this biologic fungicide is very helpful because I have and do use it in a slightly different form. I'm reminded of how the vineyard managers here use the tea rose to aid in the detection of powdery mildew in their plantings. It speaks to a constant vigilance and proactive decisions that help to thwart many of these diseases. I have also used potassium carbonate for control, but found it to be weak in its protection while also leaving behind a noticeable residue. Lastly, I combined both azadirachtin [Azatin-O] with Serenade the other day and came back the next day to search for any problems. None were found so I am trusting when properly applied [meaning, by the label directions] no phyto-toxic consequence resulted. My response to your earlier statement of using dish soap reminded me of a time when I gave a lecture to a class of 15 year old's and all they asked me was if I knew how to grow marijuana. I finally said to the room, "Yes, I know how to grow it. But, the law prohibits me from sharing that information with you." The chaperons all smiled, the kid's were bummed and I moved along in presenting my talk which was meant to encourage the younger set to consider horticulture as an occupation. Rules are rule. I'll look forward to your future sharing as it is clear how this forum stimulates and contributes to my learning. Of which I am very grateful.

I will admit. I did not start out the season spraying anything. We have so many bees up here in Asheville that I am nervous to do such. I am trying to be organic as possible.

We finally had to get a house spray the other day because the spiders and the "piss ants" (as they affectionately call those little black ants) were ridiculous. In our spraying, we accidentally got a preying mantis. My husband and I felt so bad! I didn't have any issues with anything on my plants until we hit this hotter than usual spot. I am open to any recommendation as to what to use to best make my flowers pretty but help protect the beneficial bugs in the area.

I just am completely dumb when it comes to using chemicals. I want something that is fool proof so I can't hurt anything in the process.

Terri, I'm sorry to say that we ALL are on a lifelong quest to find that 'foolproof' solution that works every time. <chuckle> lots of gardening is trial and error, and what works for one may not work for the next. But the good news is: you've got lots of good company on your learning curve!

Gary, I was wanting to ask you a question off the forum.. Could you email me, please? Cicivacation @ aol (dot) com Thanks!

@Gary_Figueroa What would be the reason to use azadirachtin instead of neem oil, assuming azadirachtin is more expensive? It should come down to money at some point, comparing how much the active ingredient azadirachtin costs buying it as neem oil as opposed to buying an azadirachtin concentrate.