From a performance standpoint, we tend to observed that the vinyl jambliner equip windows seal tighter over the long term. If you prefer the looks, the question is entirely personal as to whether or not they are worth the additional $185.

Are you saying a jambliner performs better over the Woodright only or over all other non jambliner/compression type seals?

My questions is whether the upgraded Woodwright will improve the interior look enough to spend the extra money. I tend to prefer non-plastic/fake looking finishes as I'm sure most people do as well. Not having seen these in the field I'm looking for opinions.

I'm also considering the A-series and not sure how much more those will set me back.

The house will be on the higher end around $250-280/sq. ft. in a nice area of Martha's Vineyard.

We are looking at the Andersen A series along with Marvin's Integrity and Ultimate windows. Have you considered Marvin?

The comments I've seen on Marvin were along the lines that they were quite a bit more expensive and I also saw some negative product reviews. I'm looking to narrow my search so I can get going with the building phase.

In my search of the A series I saw some negative reviews as well, so I wouldn't be too concerned about the negative Marvin reviews. From all I've seen the window pros feel they are a top window in wood/clad. For the price you're building at I would at least get some additional quotes.

http://andersen-window-moisture.weebly.com/

If you have other windows remaining with jambliners I would go for cost savings and uniformity perhaps. If your windows are white the jambliners are less noticable. You could perhaps put the wood rights in highprofile rooms that everyone sees and 400's in bedrooms where only you and your bedroom companions would notice. Since its your money I say put them everywhere. I also would recommend pricing Marvin's, sometimes they are right in there on price and the new ultimates sound nice.

We looked at the A-series today as were impressed. They look much more finished than the TW 400s. I like the trim kits although wondered if folks thought they looked plastic? We'd do azek trim otherwise which is obviously also a plastic.

I like the trim kits and think they look nice but they are not cheap. Bit limited with the Aztec trim options and would have to paint unless left white. Not an Aztec fan unless it is custom milled and hate flat casing, especially if is picture framed.

Not and Aztec fan....hmm. We are not amused.

Just saw this on CR - rates the TW400 over the much more expensive A and E series

Pella number 2 on the list?

Joseph makes and excellent point. Better that CR report is used as the lining for a litter box as compared to a real evaluation tool for windows.

WOW, you stated the jambliners tend to seal better and the CR test seems back this, why discredit them.

It would be interesting to see the full story and how they exactly performed the testing. Interesting to see the different results caused be temperature and rain.

Is there any other real testing done? For such a big expense there's a real lack of any comparison testing. These windows are going to cost more than a luxury car

Nothing I've been able to find in my window search.

What would real testing consist of?

Oh Todd...ever the contrarian. It is a roll you relish and I appreciate you for it. You are, for lack of a better descriptor, good as what you do (Soft-Lite Bainbridge reference).

I don't have access to the CR data or the evaluation tools they used. It is, amongst the professionals that I know, a somewhat accepted standard that CR is not the best evaluator of construction materials. Placing Pella inside your top 2 tends to back that statement up.

I should have stated that the primary vinyl jambliner window that we see work well for years is the Narrowline series. There have been more than a few complaints about the 400s being drafty as all get up.

"What would real testing consist of?"

How about AAMA 502 and ASTM E1105 compliance for a start.

I found this article that discuss test methods:

www.rci-online.org/interface/2010-04-hinjosa.pdf

So the Narroline, not the conversion kits are the proven performer? The testing CR did on the windows seems to be fairly comprehensive, more so than anything else I've seen. Looks like they tested to AAMA standards and even in different temps. Can't really fault them if the Pella tested well. I have not read the article yet as the link did not work and I am to cheap to subscribe, maybe I can view sometime st the library. It appears they don't do any long term testing which is understandable nor any engineering dissecting. To be fair there are many complaints on the other brands being drafty as well.

Most times we see the conversion kits requested, the window sills are rotted and the openings a bit racked. While the conversion kits doe accommodate for some of that, I would argue that an insert if 10X more likely to get installed & sealed right and be tighter as a result.

Which of those windows (wood) would you put in your own home Todd? How about from the vinyl list?

So the narrow line is the proven performer, narrowline upgrade kits are not due to most of the upgrade kits are being installed in bad frames and the 400s have had complaints of draftiness?? I would consider the 400 series as my choice if going wood, great price, great test results from one of the largest window manufactures . if you have their vinyl list and results available I would gladly choose a winner for you.

Todd - would you choice the 400s over the Marvin Next Gen Ultimate if price wasn't a consideration?

I don't see those on the list nor have I read the full article so to comment on this is somewhat irrelevant to the post especially considering how much more the Ultimate really cost. But since I consider the Ultimate to be one of the more aestically pleasing windows on the market and test I have witnessed from blower door test that have shown regardless of brand that newly installed windows are not week point I'd go Ultimate.

If the conversion kit is the way to go, are you recommended sash kits based on that same rationale? We have used the conversion kits in a couple of jobs and they worked out quite nice in this case. The customer was a dedicated maintainer of his windows previously and had none of the rot on the sill edges that folks normally experience and the home was build by a local and small builder. The openings were laser straight.

There are more than a few posts on here about folks complaining about the 400 T/W. I have inspected a good size home in my are with 400 T/W in them and they leaked like sieves. The windows were square, plumb, and level. All the reveals were right and they worked quite well. They still leaked like they were open.

That is just the one example I have seen and I will not impugn the entirety of the line based on that. It, along with some other posts on here, is enough to raise a tentative red flag in my book and at least consider other options both on the CR list and otherwise available.

As far as the CR commentary, their #2 window calls into question their rationale on their list. While I don't think we should be dammed by the sins of the past, most folks that are well versed in wood wouldn't not put anything by certain manufacturers on that list. I see two questionable brands that have had several disastrous runs of materials. Not just bad batches, but poor designs at the core.

I will see if I can look up the CR data on vinyl windows and post that up. You can pick your winner from that Top 3 as well.

Thought I would post a follow up to this. Here are the top 5 rated vinyl double hungs according to Consumer Reports (online).

Simonton ProFinish Contractor was their best rated vinyl window in this case with high remarks for wind resistance.

If you go to Simonton and download their own structural testing on the ProFinish Contractor, you will find that the average air infiltration rating on all of the units tested is 0.19. Not exactly in the "tight" category.

Which one of these would you view at the "winner" Todd? If you say the Simonton, I can't disagree with you there. Just not sure the customer is getting a "winner" of a window in that unit.

The 3rd place finisher didn't exactly get great reviews from the CR users either. Here are two of the comments:

Reviewer #1:I installed 13 of these windows in a home I built 8 years ago. The seal
between the two glass panes have failed in four of the windows. There
is a draft around windows - each winter I put tape on the seam where the
upper and lower windows meet and put cotton balls in the channels on
the side of the windows to slow the air flow.

Reviewer #2: I put these in my new house five years ago. It was built to high
energy-efficiency standards, and these windows offered the U-factor and
glass efficiency standards I needed. Besides being made by Andersen.

Boy,
was I disappointed. The first winter we noticed a very cold draft
around all windows. It was coming up the side channels on each side of
the bottom panes and blowing an absolute breeze. My husband taped
little banners of Kleenex beside them, and they flew like a flag.

I often do recommend sash kits , not always but on a case by case basis.

My experience with the 400's have been quite positive, personally i have had more problems with Marvin's even though i typically see more Andersens in the field.

The rationale of the list seems to based upon scientific data based upon test by AAMA standards.Without seeing the whole article i would assume recommendation would be based upon air infiltration and rain resistance and pricing. I do give them props for doing this and I really like the idea of testing at different temps. It would be nice see long term test done as well. It would also be nice to see the actual numbers not the red and black circles.

I think they picked the right winner from the windows they tested, I am not familiar with the Kobe product tested nor do I know what American Craftman window they tested.Not trying to defend American Craftsman but their low-end line is really bad window and their "upper end" window is at least serviceable. Their windows are also a bit difficult to install due to the way they seal. I would not take this user's review to heart cause my guess is they f'd it up.

Though 0.19 is not tight it is good as most any wood product out there.

Simonton shows an air infiltration rating of 0.07 to 0.80 depending on test size, it would be intersting to see CR's actual numbers.

Obviously CR's test on vinyls were limited to brands that more readily available and do not include windows that are dealer exclusive. Also a lot of the top brands are very regional and are unknown to most.

Hi Todd - Since we are considering Marvin windows for our new build, can you tell me what problems you were observing and in what Marvin lines? "....personally i have had more problems with Marvin's even though i typically see more Andersens in the field."

Mostly with rot in the frames of the ultimate Series. Never really come across the ultrex lines. Mostly in the early / mid 2000's. Most problems I see now are fairly evenly spread be ween brands. Andersen is by far the most popular window that I come across, even my house has the original Andersen's from 1965.

Thanks Todd. I'm very surprised to hear that so recently on the Ultimate line. I thought Marvin had a problem from what I read in the 1980's though late 1990's with a wood preservative they used from a supplier. From everything I've read their aluminum cladding is suppose to be one of the best.

Time quoted is an rough estimate and could of very well have been late 90's. Problems were mostly in corners of the frames. I am a fan of the Ultimate as it is one of the most traditional looking windows out there and just looks proper. Biggest problem I see with wood windows is condensation causing rot at lower rail of sashes which can also raise hell with the glass pack. Would consider triple panes and spacer upgrades to keep condensation down.

Here is the list with the models specified.

I averaged the air numbers on the Simonton over all the sizes. As you know, once you get into the really large units, that should artificially drive the number down a bit and actually make it look, on paper, less than it is in the field.

I would still go with Simonton out of the bunch.

I actually have a Silverline in my bathroom, that i got for free. I know I paid to much for it but it has been just fine. You can not feel air rushing around it , the glass is not fogged nor are the sashes sagging. It have been there about 11 years now.

Any insight on the disparity on CR's test on the wood windows?That is the one that is most interesting to me.

I think the lesser built windows do better in smaller applications.

By the way, I agree with you. The Simonton would be my choice as well.

Not sure about the results on the wood side of things but this was merely an exercise to illustrate that lack of faith I place in the CR results. Whether it is from a lack of sample size, product availability, long term results, or all of the above, I am not sure it is a valuable evaluation tool as it pertains to windows.

Do they have some great information on other stuff...sure. Windows, not as much.

The vinyl test pool was extremely lacking the wood pool not so bad. I am very interested to know more how they tested and the actual test numbers. Have not seen anyone else test like that and I like it. To bad Toyota doesn't make a window, then we'd have a clear cut winner.

I priced the Marvin Ultimate Next Gen and they are quite a bit more than both the A-series and the TW400s. A 3'by4' DH Marvin Ultimate was quoted at $750 while the A-series was $500 and the TW400 only $340. The Marvins were quoted by a window/door company and the Anderson's by Home Depot. I'm now leaning toward the A-series but may fall back to the TW400 depending on how the budget shakes out.

Any thoughts on the pricing discrepancy? I thought the Ultimates would be more but not 50% over the A-series and double the TW400s. The Ultimates are definitely a nicer looking window but how much time will I spend staring at my windows once they're installed?

Pricing can vary from dealer to dealer, maybe get another bid or just roll with Andersen

I'll try another dealer. I saw a post saying that an Ultimate CN3020 was priced in the mid-$400s and I was quoted mid-$700s. I really hate getting quoted a rip-off price. Anybody have a suggestion for a reasonable Marvin dealer in the Boston/Massachusetts area?

Got a quote from Cape Cod Lumber. A little better than the first Marvin dealer but still way more than the Andersens. What have others experienced with pricing?