Kyle, I think they just might. Japanese parentage should confer a bit of heat tolerance, at least as compared to European and N. American larch types. So there's at least a chance. I'd say summer max. temps will do more damage than anything your winters can throw at it. And even in this state's southern outlier tamarack populations, I've seen heavy damage in dry summers, usually accompanied by some sawfly larvae outbreak or some such.....but the trees recover very well, as in, they will later look perfect! So I would not be surprised if your efforts resulted in a tree or trees which could occasionally be virtually defoliated, but that these trees may nevertheless go on to live and grow. BTW, with my heavy use of the hybrid up at my plantation, I'm waiting to see if sawfly larvae show up. I won't be able to treat for it-this is 18 acres-but it will be interesting to see how that goes. Seemingly, this hybrid may have some resistance there, although I don't understand the mechanism.

Intriguing for sure! Hopefully I can give it a try very soon.

Kyle I'm growing Japanese larch in MidTenn. They grow well but are subject to a bleeding canker that is lethal. I have 2 trees out of about 15 originally planted.

What seems to be the cause of the canker? Is it an environmental thing?

While larches are "up" I'll say my Larix mastersiana continues to be
extremely tough here, never showing root rot related dieback in a hot,
unforgiving spot. Seems drought resistant. However it also continues to
be extremely slow growing. And they continue to be hard to find on the
market! So glad I bought it from Colvos when I did. And I shoot myself
for not buying other rarities he had like Fraxinus paxiana.

It did have a terminal shoot die from a late frost; that is uncommon here but it
could be a limiting factor to cultivation in some places.

Larix grows fast by using more of the growing season than some other tree types do. As such, it can be expected that occasionally, new growth will be frosted. They start up very early in spring, especially when compared to other pine-family members. This leaves them vulnerable to late frosts and freezes, although even there, the resinous material found in conifers confers some frost protection to these fine, delicate new tissues.

I've never seen a mastersiana. Pretty similar to other larch species? The apparent drought tolerance of your tree there David may be a thing, or it may just be that the tree would be doing much better with more moisture-you had drought this year, right?-and that the slow growth-so atypical of larch-may just be down to lack of adequate moisture.

The symptoms are similar to white pine root decline in that cracks appear in the lower trunk and freely produce sap. The tree collapses soon after the symptoms appear. I've not seen anything in the literature, and since larch isn't commonly grown in TN to any extent, it may be due to an organism taking advantage of larch's poor adaptation to TN. Other than that, the trees grew rapidly and seemed happy lol.

Never had either of my 2 larches hurt by late frosts, and I get 'em in mid-May -- long after they have leafed out.

Yeah, even up in Z4, I haven't actually seen any damage-ever. Those are the hybrids, but the tamaracks in the woods have no issues with weather. More of a hypothetical-they do green out very early. But mostly, adapted to what may come.

My Japanese larches here begin showing green in Feb in an average year, and can be subject to temps in the single digits or lower, and suffer no ill effects. Later in April when spring has sprung and the larches are in nearly full foliage, they easily tolerate temps in the 20's.

"and that the slow growth-so atypical of larch-may just be down to lack of adequate moisture."

Definitely not what is going on in this case. It just seems to be an exception the rule about larches.

Compared to other larches I've seen...which is limited...the needles are shorter and more of a gray green instead of a sea green, if that makes sense. I'd take a picture except now it is already slightly turning. Some years it is a good yellow but overall doesn't seem to color as reliably as my 2 surviving Larix kaempferi.

What I hope happens is all 3 can reach sexual maturity and have similar coning schedules...allowing natural hybrids to occur. Since my 2 remaining Japanese larch are selected against dying from root rot around here*...those progeny should be super tough, Midatlantic-tolerating, super larches LOL.

(* about 6 others have died at various times 1-3 years after being planted...and ALL my Dunkeld larches died eventually)

Masters larch is a rare tree from a small area that might be very rainy. Forested parts of China often are, I've heard a local horticulturist who has made several collecting trips there remark that a latter day expedition was the first one they had been on where it "did not rain the entire time". This species might need monsoonal summers to thrive or it could be slow growing regardless of circumstances, as are various other conifers.

http://www.conifers.org/pi/Larix_mastersiana.php

Good points bboy, but in the wetter summers we've had - and believe me we've had some wet ones - it hasn't grown any faster than in drier ones. I think it is either the slow poke of the genus, or will behave more like Abies, which are slow until they get about 5' tall and then dramatically speed up. (at least the ones I've grown)

The master larch was liner sized when I bought it (14-15" high) and has grown a few inches a year, now around 3.5' tall, would have been 4.5' had it not been for the leader that got nipped. Maybe it will speed up now. The fast growth of other larches when they are small strikes me as some kind physiologically "reckless" adaptation, maybe to out compete other seral species. Get above the grasses or something. No other conifers have grown as fast, when small for me, besides the Chinese Taxodium hybrids. Difference is those are actually very tough and disease resistant, and grow huge root systems to match the big tops.

Does anyone know of a source of L. mastersiana?

Try "mastersiana price" and see if you get any domestic suppliers.

This shows how similar it is to L. griffithii.

http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=1235&flora_id=2

If you look pages come up elsewhere saying Masters larch is a high mountain, cold moist climate species. And the Chinese have been killing it off, with maybe only three significant populations left.

Larches tend to separate into two climate groups, cold or wet. In this case it might be both.

Yes they might look similar and share a common ancestor, but their habitats are actually pretty distinctive and not overlapping. The range of Larix griffithii in the heart of the Himalayas has very few plants that grow here, while in Sichuan the mountains have at least more plants that grow in a North American continental climate. For example Abies recurvata occurs close to some of the same areas as Larix mastersiana, and I've seen it growing outside Rochester, NY in addition to my own garden. I think someone from Atlanta has even said they have one. And that's just trees...there are also more perennials of the Chinese mountains that will grow in the SE vs. plants of the high Himalayas and Tibetan plateau. I don't think we are going to see Plant Delights selling Saussureas any time soon! But we could see that at Far Reaches Farms.

The actual difference between these climates is probably minor to the average human visitor, but there's definitely a difference in the adaptability of plants from either region.

As usual I'm not sure what you're arguing with.

Or why.

Makes taking the time to find information and post it in response seem like a waste.

"As usual I'm not sure what you're arguing with.

Or why."

Have you always had these reading comprehension problems? if not it might be an early sign of Alzheimer's or dementia, and I would suggest you seek medical attention.

"Makes taking the time to find information and post it in response seem like a waste."

As has been the case for as long as I can remember, you viciously attempt to disparage anyone's contributions that even remotely challenge your opinions on anything.

Most readers would be able to distinguish "W Sichuan (Farjon 1990) at 2500-3500 m elevation" from "E Nepal, Sikkim, Bhutan...and Tibet (China: Xizang), at elevations of 3000-4100 m". The Min River valley where L. mastersiana occurs is 750 miles/1200 km from the habitat of Larix griffithii in Bhutan.

A more recent source gives an elevation as low as 2000m for L. mastersiana. Assuming mine actually is that species, it's reasonable to assume the poor Chinese peasants paid to collect it would only want to climb to 2000m and not 2500m. Could have something to do with its very evident heat tolerance.

Hairmetal, the standard US sourcing reference is here: http://plantinfo.umn.edu/default.asp

I think we determined a few years ago that Forestfarm had a few L. mastersiana at one point but not anymore. IIRC Mike Lee told me he got his seeds from Schumachers, which is the only place I've ever seen selling them.

We larch folks in the Midwest and the Eastern Atlantic should grow Larix species from the lower altitudes of Eastern Asia. Conifers in general that we grow will do best in our climates from E.Asia at lower elevations.

Larix principis-rupprechtii - would probably be the best all around Larix for climates like David's where spring frosts aren't a nuisance. It would be my first choice but spring frosts here happen more frequently. L. p-r. is also "moderate" than other larches when compared to other Larix species: "Precipitation is 600-900 mm per year, and climate is moderate compared to the type variety." The type variety being Larix gmelinii.

(Source: The gymnosperm Database)

If I was going to try Larix again (I've lost several) I'd still stick with L.principis-rupprechtii.

As-well-as:

Larix
mastersiana &

Olga Bay Larch - Larix gmelinii
(Rupr.) Rupr. var. olgensis

It also can be noted that Larix principis-rupprechtii -
"Distribution and Ecology
Korea and Russia (Amur Basin) (Zhang and Xu
1995, Vladimir Dinets e-mail, 2-Jan-1998) and China: Wutai Shan in N
Shanxi (type loc.), NW Henan, and N to Weichang in Hebei, at elevations
of 600 to 2800 m, usually on rocky slopes; Grows in mixed stands with Abies nephrolepis, Picea asperata and P.
neoveitchii below 2400 m, and on Wutai Shan it forms pure forests above
this elevation (Farjon 1990, Fu et al. 1999). Hardy to Zone 4 (Bannister and Neuner
2001)."

(The Gymnosperm Database)

I haven't done
enough research on Larix potaninii, but it appears to be a great Larch
for here and the Eastern Atlantic. Anybody care to comment about Larix
potaninii?

Of course L.griffithii is also E.Asia. however... our friend Resin didn't add it as a recommendation for me some years ago, nor did he mention L.potaninii.

*L.p-r. spring frost information* 'Conifers'- Keith Rushforth'

Dax

I've grown several Larix principis-rupprechtii , Lawyer Nursery source, in the past and I've chopped down all but one(see photo) as they are "no growers" in my area...I have a Larix leptolepis about 12" dbh and 35'-40' in height. Could have had more but the Beavers got ahead of the cages!

BTW, plantings were of similar age.

The longest lived Larix for me is leptolepis. 2-3 years and overnight it died during the middle of summer. Finding the right one for 'your area' may simply be trial & error & luck.

I've also lost kaempferi; and what Resin believed to be a hybrid with cone features of (gmelinii x kaempferi). And a complete waste of time with Larix occidentallis... which I knew had about zero chance. Proved me right dying before winter came along. I tried a good dozen of those all at once.

Dax

I have a contorted, semi-weeping larch bonsai, Larix decidua 'Horstmann's Recurva' that's just starting to turn color. In the nearby Cascade Mountains, the native Alpine Larch grows at above 5,000' elevation, and the Western Larch down to about 2,500'.

Was there a general reason the majority of them died, Dax? Excuse my ignorance.

Too much summer heat and humidity. Plenty of precipitation though.

You should be able to find cool air pockets on your river area to grow Larix. I kind of remember there is sandy/loam or mostly sand? Will help a lot.

Here I have loamy clay. Very less than ideal.

Dax

That's correct, though I have much more space to plant in the foothills and mountains. Ranging from 1500' to 2500' elevation. Maybe near some small streams or other natural cold sinks would be a good place for me to try.

Pseudolarix might be a better choice, it's not a true larch but not too far off

Yep, Kyle was searching hard for Pseudolarix earlier this year. I know he got some starters. I think they're very small though. I have a Pseudolarix in a pot that's 14" tall~ that I'll be planting next year. Potted this spring bare-root to a #3.

Dax

Yep, Dax is exactly right. I have two small 8"ish Pseudolarix seedlings currently in #1. Hoping these little guys aren't as slow as some reports. One blog Dax put me on stated they had potential for moderate to even fast growth given the right conditions. That would be lovely. I'm gonna try to grow some from seed, and if that doesn't work (again), I'll just buy some more small starters.

i realize they're better suited to my area than any of the true larches, but the "plantsman" in me says I must try anyways! :-)

As you should, indeed.

Don't hold your breath watching your Pseudolarix. I think it's possible to see 15' in 10-12 years, but I don't think you're going to see more than that. And that would be from at least a full-gallon of roots to begin with and a foot tall plant. I don't know for certain though. I saw one in Madison WI at the Madison Arboretum that I seemed to think was 10-years old and around 12-15'. And I saw one in Michigan at 'The Harper Collection' that I seem to think was a 4-5' they put in a couple three years prior to my visit that might have been 7' tall. Now that was more than a decade ago - so I wouldn't trust my memory, fully. Madison was more recent. In the last 4-5 years.

Dax

I kick myself for not buying some 7' Pseudolarix at Camforest. They are agonizing slow when young, though in fairness that's been true of various rare Asian conifers. The Larix mastersiana was not as bad, and the dunkeld and Japanese larches are speed demons... until they suddenly drop dead! Was talking to David Parks today about how he cannot grow Camellia x williamsii 'Aida' in central NC but I can. Just barely "cool" enough here in summer. Since only 25% of my Japanese larches survived and none of my Dunkelds, I'm right on the border for being able to grow those. There are a few big old larches in the Philly area.

Same here, the Larches I find are big and are European larch. 9 of 10 are on old farms but occasionally I find one in metropolitan areas. Still very rare.

I'm on that line with you, David. Surprisingly with my loamy clay, Rhododendrons love this stuff. I would've thought prior to planting them I was going to lose them, however even after weeks or a month w/o rain... I can stick a shovel in the ground and find the soil is moist after however many inches of "crust" on top. Which is very few and likely not much more than 4".

Yep a 7' Pseudolarix would've been one of those good investments no matter how it's looked at. A $200-300 price tag wouldn't stop a person from getting one if they really knew what was before their eyes.

Cheers,

Dax

"ep a 7' Pseudolarix would've been one of those good investments no matter how it's looked at. A $200-300 price tag wouldn't stop a person from getting one if they really knew what was before their eyes."

Can you believe he only wanted $100?

Interesting that there are big Euro. larch in (central?) Illinois. There was a big larch over a hundreds years old at Oatlands, in Northern Virginia. But I think it finally died, and it always looked a bit sickly. OTOH the couple big Euro. larches at Longwood look quite healthy. Again, it's that line probably and at least around here, there real difference is the midsummer rainfall is just a little more consistent up there. Summer temps are hardly different at Longwood vs. Oatlands. Even where I am, we sometimes get in a pattern where the storms are hugging the Mason-Dixon line and will just skirt my garden giving .2" here but 1" at Longwood! I jokingly call it the "Mason-Dixon force field".

Soil could help too...the SE PA soils more loamy and deep than the orange clay/hardpan in a place like Leesburg. As I've joked before, Longwood does not tolerate unhealthy looking plants...maybe those Larix know they better perform haha.

I'm 50 miles south of Chicago on the other side of the state. 20 miles east of The Mississippi. So not central. Another 100 miles south on The Mississippi is Quincy, IL and that's where zone 6a begins. That same 100 miles south of here is the equivalent to 30 miles south of Pittsburgh, PA. or parallel to Smock, PA. So I am 70 miles to the north of Pittsburgh on a parallel.

Dax

Old farmsteads in southern Wisconsin often featured rows of European larch also. Or Norway spruce, of course! Maybe German immigrant thing?

David, the what-I-think-is-a European larch in the Bedford, PA cemetery looked really "tired" this late summer w/premature browning foliage. Not sure if it was the somewhat hot/dry summer, or something more serious. It had obviously weathered previous hotter/drier summers, but I'm a bit concerned it might be declining & will keep a watch on it. Below shows it this past spring w/emerging needles. Easily 100 ft tall w/a massive root-flair:

My 2 larches. First up is Japanese larch. Needles a bit dulled (and strong wind bending it), but expected this time of yr. Almost 30 ft tall after 11 yrs:

Next is the hybrid (Euro x Japan) on death-row. Made a meek effort to grow a few more needles, but looked like this in mid-summer. Note the little Norway spruce at its base to replace it:

Surprised that marschlinsii doesn't perform better in your elevation. I suppose I could still be surprised but man, mine are reaching skyward up in Zone 4. Took them exactly one summer to reach up over the "weed layer" and now there's no stopping them....I hope! Plants from 2008-these were sticks smaller than a pencil-are now 25 ft. tall. Growth last year was 5-6 ft.

I'm repeating myself now beng, but southern WI outlier populations of tamarack were seen to defoliate badly during dry 2012 season. Those trees today are in perfect health following our very wet summer up here. So full recovery can definitely happen. The deciduous nature of these trees is one of their advantages; They can refoliate after a tough season.

Tom, my Japanese larch has slowed top growth a bit lately as it's putting more energy into the side branches & trunk-thickening. And thanks -- the cemetery larch is prb'ly just responding to temporary conditions & hopefully bounce back next spring.

And I'd have to think the hybrid has some kind of root-rot issue.

I basically became interested in conifers because of Larix, and wrote my first article for the ACS bulletin back in 1995. I have a collection in NE Ohio, about 50 miles NW of Pittsburgh. My biggest is a L. kaempferi 'Blue Rabbit' that is probably 60' tall and about 14" DBH. Species I am growing there include: L. laricina from NE Ohio seed source, L. decidua, L. kaempferi (several), L. gmelinii var. gmelinii, L. russica, L. x czekanowskii (russica x gmelinii). I used to have L. occidentalis doing o.k (it was cut down) and L. principis-rupprechtii. I also have many cultivars and dwarfs.

beng, I wonder about that. I remember reading something in the boilerplate that marschlinsii actually had greater resistance to something...........of course I don't remember what! Hybrid vigor and increased gene combination potentials often confer some kind of vigor to such plants, so we shall see. I've got quite an investment in hybrid larch up there. So far, it is easily the star performer of those conifer species I've planted there, and they're all fast growers.

Salicaceae what was the understock for your 'Blue Rabbit'? (in theory it could even have been cutting grown, too, but I think that is very uncommon)

Anyhow yes beng they are root rot susceptible down in our low, hot latitudes (LOL) and that's surely what is going on with your hybrid. All of my hybrids died, and about 70% of the "pure" (too pure probably) Japanese larches. The spot you planted it also looks flatter than where you planted the pure Japanese larch. It's not inconceivable that if you merely had reversed where they were planted, the one on the lower spot would be suffering regardless of its type.

"Hybrid vigor and increased gene combination potentials often confer some kind of vigor to such plants, so we shall see"

Except the marschlinsii grown in the US now are more than couple seed generations away from the original F1 hybrids, AND it was never as common for forestry here (more of a botanical garden specimen plant) meaning it's several seed generations that were selfed, not out-crossed. So any heterosis is long since vanished.

True enough, we're well past F-1. Still, I see these as exceptional performers in this climate. Time will tell. Bill Sayward, the guy that produces these things had previously been a forester in Maine with Georgia Pacific. He had great success in Maine with this tree. You guys are probably just not in the right climate zone for any real success with Larix. Where mine are doing so great, I can't grow a decent Metasequoia. Tradeoffs-all is tradeoffs.

"Tradeoffs-all is tradeoffs."

Indeed.

Thanks, conifer50 -- nice find. Looks like red spruces or balsam firs behind.....