My gut reaction is, if the soap forms only a tiny proportion of the compost, it probably won't matter. But apparently this topic has come up here before, and it's not a great idea if you're using antibacterial soap. Not that washing with any soap isn't antibacterial, but some of them have specialized germ killers added.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1605268/antibacterial-soap-water

Thanks Jon. I think you're right. Moderation and maybe depends on the health of my compost pile. Like, right now it's pretty pathetic. Just starting a new one. I think I'll find something else for my soapy water. Maybe plant flowers in zone one. (near the house)

I think the rise water should be fine for the pile.

I have started keeping a bit of soapy water in my kitchen counter compost bucket to keep it lemony fresh and less icky in the bottom. I'd say a couple drops of soap in 2 cups of water in a half gallon container. I haven't seen any problems, granted a couple drops of soap a day in a couple-yard compost pile is such a small trace amount. I've accidentally had larger quanties of nastier stuff introduced and still no impact.

CC, it sounds like that might not be your first/only compost pile. Have you made any material transplants into your current pile from somewhere the business of decomposition and biological recycling is already in full swing? Your pile might just be struggling because the beneficial bugs (both micro- and macroscopic) haven't moved in yet.

You could use mustard powder instead of any soap for dishwashing. Works great and it is compost friendly :))

Grey water is the water from your sink, lavatory, shower, dish and clothes washers. Black water is the waste from your toilet. Many states are changing the public health laws to allow the use of grey water but still ban the use of black water in the garden. The color, grey or black, refers to source not color.

Whether the "soap" used when washing dishes will affect the bacteria in the compost pile or soil in the garden will depend on which "soap" is used and how much. The synthetic detergents will have a larger adverse affect with smaller quantities then would a real soap, like your grandmother, or maybe now great grandmother, used to dump on her garden.

Daily dumping of water on a compost pile may not be either necessary or good, depending on how wet that compost pile is.

kimmq is kimmsr

Rite are you using a detergent or a biodegradable soap. Dr brothers or such is fine. Dawn or something like that I wouldn't use.

I wouldn't use water with soap any more than I would use city water with chlorine - the soil microbes don't like this stuff. Save the soapy water for killing insects. Put some in a bucket with a soft white colored light, preferably a low wattage soft white light.

Jon, you're spot on, again. - My mind is expanding from a less "purity" to a more functional garden. I once argued about dog manure in composting even for non-veggies. I no longer argue this matter. I've read the book Humanure and absolutely recommend it. Yet, I'm not one to spend a great deal of time bolstering chemistry at that level. Hence, I mentioned it not getting hot. I like to heat up the initial pile when it gets sufficient in mass. After that, I let it do it's own thing.

I know why this pile is pathetic. It's a new pile in an entirely different area. Your comment reminded me I had best take a couple shove-fulls of good soil from the other area and throw it in! I haven't used any of those pile.

Rayzone - I undertand. Most of the time the rotation is sufficient that a good rinse will do. But every now and then ... I use 3- 5 gallon buckets in rotating fashion. Fill up in the kitchen. Take it to the pile and dump. Rinse. Let that one sit in the sun. We have a lot of sun. I pick up one of the others that has been in the sun. It's such a habit I don't see stopping.

My pile is still too dry! I need to fix that.

avgusta - I have the recipes for home made soap. I hope to incorporate this at a later time. I'm just not ready for it quite yet.

kimmq - I remember looking up the oklahoma regulations on grey water. I'm happy to say the rules are decent and useful. Not too many restrictions. They consider any grey water that has been standing for more than 24 hours (without filtering at a select rate into organic material) as black water. That makes my 5 gallon buckets black water after 24. I put foodstuffs in it so, really, I handle it like black water. I'm sure they do this because some maroon is likely to allow what appears to be clean (laundry water, e.g.) to be idle for a month or more, not knowing any better. Rural uneducated folks being they way they are. ;)

That doesn't mean they're right, but it's impressed on my mind. In case I have problems in the future .... I wanna know "their stuff". Better safe than sorry, anyhow.

You're always a wealth of information. Appreciate it!

chigardenlady - I'm using Ajax dishwashing liquid. Simple, but I know it's too harsh to use as a pesticide directly on plants.

gumby - I hear what you're saying. Our water is horrid. I am happy to say that my soil is so awesome (even without amendments) that occasional use of heavily chlorinated tap water doesn't hurt too much. I prefer unchlorinated and I use a lot of captured rain water. I have a lot of goody microbes to work with in my soil. I'm SO grateful for that.

That's what makes me think that if a little soap in the rinse water (not the wash water) will be okay.

I wanted to bounce this around before I go and make a decision that might destroy all my hard work.

Thanks everyone. We just closed on these six lots that we've been living. I cleared the garden in the hopes of going full-out permaculture.

Much that I have learned came from this forum!

You don't have to make homemade soap! Mustard powder works just fine itself. It takes off grease and dirt without any additives.

Ajax Dishwashing Liquid is a detergent, not a soap, synthetic, made from non renewable resources.

A compost pile needs to be just moist, not wet. Perhaps this tutorial on composting might be of some help.

http://sarasota.ifas.ufl.edu/compost-info/

kimmq is kimmsr

I just might try the mustard powder. I have giant mustard seed for cover crop. When it bolts, I could put seed collection to good use. FREE materials. I like that.

I'm in the process of planning, planting and establishing desirable invasives like 4 o'clocks, comfrey and some lemon balm. It has taken some practice to see how I handle invasives and whether or not they will get away (from me). The invasives, so far, have not been able to keep up with me. In fact, I eradicated my first batch of invasive, so these are good to go in use. They will help my compost greatly. I think live plants play a different role than my kitchen "sludge". Probably the nitro.

I need to build a wooden compost bin that shields the pile from our drying winds. That will help.

Is your pile covered? Look around here, lots of ways to cover that let it breathe and should reduce drying out. Old carpets seem a favourite, or burlap sacks, and I'm sure other suggestions will now magically appear. Or even just a layer of shredded paper/cardboard on top, which will mostly be dry, but keep moisture from just entirely evaporating out, and in time compost itself as well.

How on earth did you kill the four o'clocks? I broadcast some seeds years ago to add colour in front of a grey concrete wall, and when they took over the yard, I tried everything from Roundup to a chainsaw to caustic lye to digging out the roots to dousing the whole area in gasoline and lighting it on fire. NOTHING would stop them. They were still there and in charge when I moved away.

Tx armoured We were moving across the alley... and then suddenly we weren't. I built a pile across the alley from whee our water source is located. I have tons of cardboard boxes not being used. .

I've been trying to recycle old metal into some type of gutter to catch the rain runn off the shed, nearby, and into a tank.

i would only do this with biodegradable soap......if you cant find it around town i know they sell it on amazon. But even then I would consider building a constructed wetland to deal with the grey/blackwater.

The plumbing issue affects the grey water from the laundry as well. Currently, I'm running a hose and a pipe manually through the door to avoid using the faulty plumbing. Doing this has really given me some ideas for the landscape.

The whole plumbing problem has really been a good learning lesson.

You gonna need ideas if you are using detergents and steady disposing of it into the environment. You will eventually learn some type of lesson even it is the hard way. I'm sure the next thing you will say is the water runs into the creek. You are polluting the environment, but I'm sure you are not the only one. People need to be aware of the effects they have on the environment just by being reckless and irresponsible. Wow.

chigardenlady

I'm honest, not stupid. Unfortunately, you're just an ass. Not much to be done bout that.

gumby-If you remember having goldfish as a kid, when it was time to clean the bowl you had to make sure you let the city (chlorinated) water sit for 24 hours to let the chlorine evaporate.

My fish only died occasionally! Nancy

A wee bit of noodling on the web gives plenty of sources that say that the level of chlorine in city water is likely too low to make much difference.

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/ptlk/1548.html

That said, rainwater much better for lots of reasons - just that watering with tapwater once in a while is not likely to result in an arid desert.

<you had to make sure you let the city (chlorinated) water sit for 24 hours to let the chlorine evaporate.>

Exactly how I handle things when I do run out of rainwater - I fill the rain barrels from the hose then let it sit overnite at least.

Just wish I could find a way to pressurize the rain barrels enuff to use soaker hoses.

Just ignore the chigardentroll and it and it will crawl back under it's bridge.

<A wee bit of noodling on the web gives plenty of sources that say that
the level of chlorine in city water is likely too low to make much
difference.> Diff in what?

No one said that city water would kill plants but IF you are trying to create an environment for bacteria to grow (as in compost) then me thinks adding a known disinfectant is not going to be helpful.

I think it's worthwhile to look at the link I provided. To quote from it, "Researchers have found that chlorinated drinking water may kill a number of microorganisms in soil or a compost pile. However, their reproduction rate is so rapid that populations rebound in a short time. Under normal conditions, chlorinated water will not threaten microorganism populations. ... One reason chlorinate water has little impact is that chlorine binds to soil particle surfaces. This immobilizes chlorine and reduces its ability to kill microorganisms." (There's more there, of course, like it doesn't tend to penetrate very far because of this binding.)

So yes, it's not helpful, but it doesn't have much effect - so I think that's pretty clear in terms of my comment 'doesn't make much difference.' You can decide for yourself how much you care about this difference and whether letting chlrinated water stand for 24 hours before using for watering is worth the effort, but it's not really comparable to the risk posed to fish in a fish tank.

Really no effort to let water sit, in fact, it also allows the water to warm a bit before applying it to any plants.

As to using chlorinated water in compost - if you must, you must. However, soap is known to kill bacteria and insects (good and bad bugs) so combining chlorine with soap then applying it to plants or compost cannot be any more beneficial. But again - if you must, you must.

I prefer to avoid it by letting the water sit when I must (use city water).

lol rayzone7 For certain. Everyone lives in congested areas. Therefore, everyone lives in a city. Therefore, everyone should contact civil authorities on other people who aren't behaving properly. Therefore, everyone outside of cities are DUMB AS F and should be either discarded or treated with disdain and one should rely heavy on the use of assumptions, condescending attitudes filled with shaming attitudes and definitely overlooking pertinent information. LOL

gumby and armoured

Our chlorine levels are horrid. I haven't tested. Even I don't drink it. I can SMELL the chlorine. Like to let it sit, when possible which is why I push the envelope on grey water to black water (pursuant to Oklahoma's definition) because it is used in washing. I must water with the tap occasionally in our summer's quasi desert, but my land is very large and microbes are abundant in the soil surrounding the garden beds. That part has been tested.

Chigardenlady, you're abusive. I don't tolerate abusive people. If you were honest, you would conclude that you do not know all the pertinent facts and that you are making an assumption. You would recognize that you are outright prejudice and willfully demeaning. Seriously, I tire of the stereotyping, incessant judgment and haphazard laziness on people's part to understand the culture of different geographical regions and that we're not a bunch of barbarians without sophistication or educated means.

If you do not understand the above paragraph, there are other language options for which I can provide:

Paleo Hebrew
Arabic
Spanish
Pig Latin

I am most fluent in English as it is my native tongue.

If that is not sufficient, I would be happy to report your abusive ass. Or you could just grow up.

bon - your favorite "hillbilly"

I want to extend generous "thank yas" to all the helpful people. I'll make a good darned decision very soon, tho. I'm not certain if the whiskey barrel sittin' over in da corner is gonna provide a good rain barrel. It's exposure to rats has been gawd awful, I do say. Nonetheless, I'll be shore to pull up the horse and buggy and load up on the water barrels and let them sit around for a while. Hopefully, the mule won't kick and bust the darn thing. On Tuesdays, Junior likes to harass the mules when his cousin/girlfriend is too busy to entertain him. We'll get this permaculture thang out of the way after Uncle Jed removes Aunt Betty's old trailer from the crick. I've been hollering about that monstrosity in the water, there. I mean, the water tastes funky. Sammy seems to think it's the old insulation flapping around that's causing it to stink up. I just think we haven't gotten enough rain. When it rains really hard, that ol' water tastes mighty fine.

Ya'll be good, now. We'll bark atcha later.

@chickencoupe - obviously I don't know anything about your specific water, and like I said, rainwater is certainly better, and I certainly dont have any problem with people letting water sit to get the chlorine out. Just that it's probably the least of your worries.

Laundry: The Home Comforts Book of Caring for Clothes and Linens by Cheryl Mendelson

Tx Tox We're doing earthworks this fall and next spring. I'm very excited about the results. We'll probably pop a spring within the next decade. KNowledge is powerful!

I have everything to make my own soap. The soap issue is the next major change into sustainability/permaculture. We're working on running a permanent grey water system. This mini grey water garden section is really giving me some practical knowledge toward that endeavor. Honestly, changing soaps is a part I'm not liking because I like clean clothes. I mean, I don't use Tide. I use a cheap simple brand while my home made soap just sits there, but still ... So, it's back to the books. Pretreatment is the key: a habit that must be implemented.

For anyone reading about laundering effectively and naturally, I really love the book listed above. Like so many, I had taken technological advancement for granted. My grandmother knew, but my mother either didn't know or didn't care to use the old methods nor teach them.

armoured

My biggest concern, actually is the oil and gas industry! There's a superfund site nearby and the quakes ... gawd, the quakes!

But, yeah, there's a wealth of life on the plot with a thriving ecology. Hopefully, I can keep it that way.

Some people have way too much time on their hands and are way too sensitive. Really you asked for opinion several people gave it to you, and you just kept saying silly things. But if I am abusive because I said that you are polluting well then I guess I am. I am not a troll just kind of blunt and to the point and maybe it's a sensitve crowd around gardeners Idk. It just seems redundant to make the same points over and over. If you lived so far in the sticks you wouldn't have chlorine in your water, and I wasn't implying that anyways not that it matters. And you are way off topic which I think is a good topic because people should use grey water, however they just need to be aware of what is in the water when it is put directly onto the earth, everything should be biodegradable and in moderation. And also is what one dumps today going to affect tomorrow's ground water.

This conversation about chlorine in the water came to mind, yesterday. The chlorine might not be too much for the garden area or it might sit sufficiently for de-chlorination before heading to the compost, but I'd bet it is too much for the materials in the bucket at the time it is added. I introduced another 5 gallon bucket along with the regular compost bucket for de-chlorination before mixing it in with the compost bucket.

I was killing the microbial process before it even reached the compost? And I was worried about the soap.

If it was yall's intent to bring that to my attention, thank you!

What are the materials in the bucket? Are you putting foodstuffs/compostables in there? Or just cardboard and paper? Personally I'd skip that step and add water and compostables to the pile separately - no need for it and having the stuff immersed in water (chlorine or not) is just creating an anaerobic environment, even if only temporarily.

chigardenlady -

You remind me why I'm so grateful. I don't live in the sticks. That's what's so wonderful about this plot where I live. Technically, it is a 'city'. Really, it's a rural municipality. We have chlorinated tap water and sticks, too.

It's like having the best of both worlds - the space and ecology for a wonderful bio-diverse garden with home-grown vegetables all the while a grocery store is within walking distance. And the stars shine at night.

The plumbing problem on this house is a sensitive issue. Why it is sensitive to me might help you put things in perspective.

In case you haven't heard, Oklahoma has been quaking. Not just occasionally. Alaska, because it sits atop the Ring of Fire, is known to have the highest number of earthquakes above 3.0 per month followed by California's quakes. California is famous for its quakes. That has always been the case since they started recording earthquake activity.

Not any more.

Oklahoma surpasses them all, including Alaska for the average number of earthquakes per month registering greater than 3.0. Even Californians do not understand this level of quaking. Unlike California, properties in Oklahoma are not built to sustain these. It's a disaster waiting to happen with the next 5.0. In case you haven't figure it out: The quakes busted some of our pipes. And these are not below ground. Our problem isn't just the plumbing, either.

My house is being destroyed, chigardlady.

We are in the process of remodeling a second home, nearby, and retrofitting that house to make it more earthquake resilient because the house on our current residence, where we live now, has been systematically destroyed beyond repair from the foundation up. Adding to this worthlessness is a nearby grain mill whose semi's run up and down our quiet street from sunup to sun down adding stress to its foundation our the last few decades.

We are lucky that only the grey water pipes were damaged from the quakes, not the black water pipes. We are blessed to have the other more durable home, but it is currently uninhabitable. We're paying for all this, btw.

The price of securing a foundation sufficient to withstand the constant quaking is, usually, not cost-prohibitive. We had it estimated. It would cost more than the worth of all six lot(s) where our current house sits to retrofit for earthquakes. Instead, we are remodeling the other home, plan to dismantle this one, open up all its six lots for permaculture that will naturally stymie three times the annual Oklahoma rainfall. It will sustain itself like no other in the area while adding tens of thousands of gallons of spring-like water right into the storm water drainage system below.

Now, I'm not debating the oil and gas industry or claiming to be an anti-fracking activist. I personally know people who work in the oil and gas industry and would not like to see their families starve. It's a sticky situation. Nonetheless, I know that the oil and gas industry will never be stopped in Oklahoma. I would know, because this is where I live.

I only wish the oil and gas industry will be more responsible and consider how they not only contaminate the soil, but damage our homes. Unfortunately, people are going to die before something is really done. If not a quake, then the water is surely to become problematic somewhere, because water problems from waste water disposal by the oil and gas industries always becomes a problem for somebody, somewhere. I count on this and make my plans accordingly. A small greywater pand filter is just not a hard thing to provide in light of everything else.

The oil and gas industry being held responsible is not likely to happen if you review past behavior, like some of these, one of which is nearby. The pattern is always the same: They go in. They drill. They make a mess. They clean up said mess only a decade or more after their profits have been made.

So, even if I were letting loose hundreds of gallons of soapy contamination, your concern is really kind funny in light of what the oil and gas industry is doing to our land, our home and the over-all value of our properties.

Please, don't give up your advocacy for "saving the planet" or, at least, "stopping pollution". But, please, have the courage to face the real trouble-makers instead of your fellow citizens trying to do the best they can with what they have to work with.

armoured -

Both in there. I tear up the cardboard, toilet paper rolls, veggies, fruits, as I go along and add the spaghetti noodle water after it's cool and anything else compost-worthy.

Hay is my current brown material for the compost pile, but for the browns that go into the bucket.

Sorry to hear of your troubles, chickencoupe. Hang in there.

Hiya, Tox. I stopped by to get back to the link Kimmsr posted about the composting.

Everything's working out. As for the compost, I guess I got lazy and out of whack. I rebuilt the pile with the Berkley method and realized I've been way off the ratios. Now I have 2 steaming piles.

There are tons of people who use greywater. Not an issue unless you are cleaning up something toxic.