Um, where did you buy yours? I'm wondering if perhaps you have 'R. brunonii' instead, which was once known as 'R. moschata nepalensis'. While my 'R. moschata' is still young, and gets only morning sun, even in a prime spot I can't imagine it putting out 20-ft canes that fast.

:-/

~Christopher

Christopher I got it from Palatine in Canada. Whatever it is I'd like to see it bloom.

I'm looking on their website and can't find what they offer(ed) under that name, so I can't confirm or deny that they sell/sold the real thing. Do you have pics of the plant? Specifically, leaflets and prickles and stipules will help.

:-)

~Christopher

Christopher is right Brunonii has often been confused with moschata, in commerce. Let me see if I can find an image that shows Brunonii wood.

No. Not wood. But this gives you a good look at the leaf, at least.

If you then look at R. moschata on HelpMeFind, you'll see thast the foliage is very different.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.16943.5

I have an own root, 10years old, about 10.' It has never put out 20' canes. My conditions in Roanoke arent that different from yours. It blooms late, but has bloomed since the 2nd year (I got it as a band).

Hmmm. I will take photos in the morning. Heading to HMF. I'm intrigued! Guess I need to find a true r. moschata. Suggestions for reliable vendor?

I got R. brunonii years ago when I expected R. moschata, and it is a monster, as is my 'La Mortola', which is thought to be a form of R. brunonii. My own root R. moschata is probably about six years old and is 5'-6' tall. It does have to deal with poor soil and no summer water.

Susan, finding a source for the real thing might be tough. When I looked for it a few years ago, I was disenchanted by the pics shown on several nurseries' websites. Some have only the semi-double form, which I didn't want. Some have a different rose, perhaps a semi-double white Noisette. The only one I could find that was "real" was Vintage Gardens, and they're closed now. I rooted a cutting of mine and gave it to Virginia, aka vmr423, and it seems to be doing well. I could try that again with mine.

Or....I just noticed that it's currently available at Rose Petals Nursery. See link below:

http://rosepetalsnursery.com/rose.php?pid=682&cid=4&rose=Graham%20Thomas%20Single%20Musk

:-)

~Christopher

Ok you all. It's a Kodak moment! I will definitely get in touch with RU.

Thanks again!!

Susan

It's definitely not 'R. moschata'. There are a few species that are generally similar, and I'd be hard-pressed to tell them apart without seeing blooms. But you might want to look at 'R. brunonii', 'R. filipes', 'R. helenae', and a few others of the Synstylae group. Many have what's often called a "musk" scent, and it's possible one was masquerading as 'R. moschata' at Palatine.

:-)

~Christopher

I can't find any cane-leaf-stipule photos on HMF. If it blooms in my lifetime I will post! Thanks!

Susan, looking at the roses on the Palatine site, I wonder if what you have is 'Queen of the Musks' which is not r. moschata but a vigorous hybrid musk. The foliage looks similar on hmf to your pic but I can't really tell. It's listed 3b to 6b - would your Nashville heat affect its bloom, I wonder?? Just a thought. Gean

Rose Petals got all three of their musks from us (the single R. moschata moschata, which they know as "Graham Thomas's Musk" since it's the one GT found in Britain; the double form R. moschata plena, and the very double form, R. moschata 'Temple'). Yes, they are all believed to be the true R. moschata.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mmmavocado/8672916895/in/photolist-aMkGrx-aMkG9x-aMkGX4-aMkG6Z-aMkG16-aMkFWV-aMkFNX-aMkG4i-6hoKb5-6hjBhK-6hj35g-6hj3bR-4zjy6a-4zoNBL-4zovxu-4zoMRL-4zjg3p-4zjfZT-4z1art-7pJ833-qew8KK-4zoFKV-4z5pAu-4z5pSw-4z1aQv-6hjBrn-gb4BRj-gb4C55-gb4C1h-eduBEY-edoY3H-edoY2V-eduBGy-edoY1p-eduAY1-eduAYN-9x4nP9-9x4nMQ-9x1nhB-edoXk2-edoY4c-9nC3vT-9nC3ut-9nC3t4-9nF5au-9nC3xn-9nEWTo-9nEWQq-4wjPCc-fdpwZP

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mmmavocado/8674019164/in/photolist-aMkGrx-aMkG9x-aMkGX4-aMkG6Z-aMkG16-aMkFWV-aMkFNX-aMkG4i-6hoKb5-6hjBhK-6hj35g-6hj3bR-4zjy6a-4zoNBL-4zovxu-4zoMRL-4zjg3p-4zjfZT-4z1art-7pJ833-qew8KK-4zoFKV-4z5pAu-4z5pSw-4z1aQv-6hjBrn-gb4BRj-gb4C55-gb4C1h-eduBEY-edoY3H-edoY2V-eduBGy-edoY1p-eduAY1-eduAYN-9x4nP9-9x4nMQ-9x1nhB-edoXk2-edoY4c-9nC3vT-9nC3ut-9nC3t4-9nF5au-9nC3xn-9nEWTo-9nEWQq-4wjPCc-fdpwZP

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mmmavocado/5602324158/in/photolist-aMkGrx-aMkG9x-aMkGX4-aMkG6Z-aMkG16-aMkFWV-aMkFNX-aMkG4i-6hoKb5-6hjBhK-6hj35g-6hj3bR-4zjy6a-4zoNBL-4zovxu-4zoMRL-4zjg3p-4zjfZT-4z1art-7pJ833-qew8KK-4zoFKV-4z5pAu-4z5pSw-4z1aQv-6hjBrn-gb4BRj-gb4C55-gb4C1h-eduBEY-edoY3H-edoY2V-eduBGy-edoY1p-eduAY1-eduAYN-9x4nP9-9x4nMQ-9x1nhB-edoXk2-edoY4c-9nC3vT-9nC3ut-9nC3t4-9nF5au-9nC3xn-9nEWTo-9nEWQq-4wjPCc-fdpwZP

There you go! You can't get better assurance that this the rose you are looking at is the one you want.

Fantastic! Malcolm, which is the most fragrant in your opinion? I guess I'm going to uproot r. mystery and take it out to my farm where it can provide dappled shade for some of my other roses. Maybe it will bloom out there. Here in the city it is in a sheltered warm spot...I will plonk it out on the North ridge and see what happens.

Thanks everyone for your help!

Susan

Susan, in case Malcolm doesn't get back to you, I remember he's said in the past that the single is the most fragrant. Synstylae roses release most of their fragrance through their stamens, and as extra petals means fewer stamens, that means the more double forms put out less scent.

:-)

~Christopher

As Christopher says -- the single is by far the most fragrant.

Hey Susan,

I got the single version of r.moschata from Roses Petals
Nursery last year. It started blooming
mid-June last year and kept blooming until frost. This year it started blooming late May and
hasn’t stopped yet. It does blackspot
here, but doesn’t completely defoliate from it like a good many of my other
roses do. Right now, its canes are around
5 ft long and arch a bit. I really didn’t
notice much of a fragrance at all from mine last year. This year, the fragrance does seem stronger
(probably since it’s bigger with more blooms opening at once), but still not as
fragrant as I expected based on its reputation…but its scent may be one of
those my nose isn’t great at detecting.

Here's mine in July when it bloomed the heaviest:

and closer up, so you can better see zillions of buds still to open...

Pat, perhaps it is your nose. In the morning, I find it among the most strongly scented of all roses. Very strong clove/musk; not a lot of traditional Damask rose.

Ohhh boy! I love that clove scent. Darlow's Enigma rarely has a scent I can detect so maybe we have the same nose Pam...Christopher, what about you?

Susan

Mine kept getting knocked back by our last two Winters, and so isn't very big -- maybe approaching 2 feet tall now. I also noticed only this year that where I have it tends to dry out fast, so I've been making an effort to water it heavily twice a week. It's responding with lots of new growth. Mine had its first blooms open in early July, and continues to send up new clusters in waves. Considering its size, its scent doesn't travel far right now, but it does have a strong clove fragrance.

:-)

~Christopher

Mine came from Vintage. It is the single. It can eventually get up to 10x10 feet, so be sure you don't plant it next to the house as I did originally. Since I moved it it has never grown quite so big or bloomed as heavily. I hope it eventually recovers fully. Very thorny but worth it. Like many stamen-scented roses, this is not one you put your nose into to detect the fragrance. Stand a little away and let it waft on the air.

Rosefolly

I have the single on order RP. Is it better in partial shade?

susan

Susan, Did the Rosa Moschata from palatine bloom for you? I am getting one too, I have to keep it in a pot, and put it in the garage for the winter. It sounds like not winter hardy for here.

You MAY be lucky with it if you plant it against your house facing south. I'm further south, and mine gets hit hard by Winter. This year I moved it into a bit more sun, which has likely set it back a bit, but I think it'll do better long-term. With the borderline-hardy roses, you want them growing as much as possible when they can, and getting extra sun will help with that -- as well as ripening growth to help it get through Winter better.

That is, if you get the right thing from Palatine. Otherwise, Rose Petals Nursery carries it -- but own-root, not on rootstock.

:-)

~Christopher

Thanks Chris! I am picking up 2 from them, one is 5' tall in a 5 gal pot, another is a potted bare root. I might keep them both in pots, don't want to take any chance with the cold winter here. I think 2 are always good with balance. :-)

My Moschata "tree" is in bloom! :-)

Summer mine did bloom. The blooms were very tiny! Yours is lovely. Wish I had remembered to snap a pic. Blooms blew very quickly.

Susan

Thanks Susan! :-) The blooms are 2.5-3" big, not too small though, just went outside did the measurement. It has been blooming for about 2 days, I just remembered to take a photo today. My two were from Palatine in early May. The "tree" is an older plant, got some thick canes. The smaller one is just growing buds now, the buds are smaller, will report back the bloom size in a week or two.

I'm wondering if you got the real thing, since down here, 'R. moschata' doesn't start blooming until about July and continues in waves until frost. Further south, it starts earlier. I think it needs a certain amount of heat to get going, then keeps going until knocked into sleep by Winter. You may have gotten 'R. brunonii', which grows larger and blooms earlier, but is finished in a few weeks. In reality, 'R. moschata' is probably just one variant, hybrid, or selection of 'R. brunonii'. That whole group of "musk roses" may very well be one or two variable species spread out over a large range, and what we call "the species" are just individual clones that differ as much as individuals will. If it makes it through your Winters, either way you'll have a nice plant. Does yours smell of cloves? To me, the scent is strongest from the stamens. Even after petals fall, a cluster of blooms with only stamens will still give off scent.

:-)

~Christopher

That's interesting, I 'd love to find out. It's pretty fragrant, but I am not sure of what clove fragrance is. The R Brunonli has more yellow in the center of a bloom, I compared with Pat and Jeri's photos. When I bought these two, they were already has leaves on them in pots not like the other roses I bought- potted bare root. Palatine is in a warmer zone than my area. I guess the easiest way to find out is to buy a R Brunonli and compare them side by side...... Chris, where did you find yours? Please post a pic when yours in bloom next month. :-) It will be a good learning experience to find out what I have.....I will keep mine in pots, and store them in the garage during the winter months.

I know a shortcut....... :-)

Professor Malcolm, Would you please let me know what I have?

Thanks

The blooms look a lot like Secret Garden Musk Climber, just googled Rose Petals website. I have 2 SGMC in pots, not in bloom yet, they're bands on their 2nd year. Now I can't wait to find out....... :-)

I was just thinking, from your photo, Secret Garden Musk Climber would be a contender. The leaves and flowers look reasonable. But I can't guarantee that. Some people find it intensely fragrant, whereas to me, it's far less fragrant than pure R. moschata. Each nose is different.

Thanks Professor Malcolm, we were thinking about the same thing. :-) But it's not the case. I just compared the Secret Garden Musk Climber against R Moschata, the leaves are totally different, it's a good thing I have 2 SGMC on my deck. Please see the photos: the smaller R Moschata(has 1 bloom) and SGMC. I know for sure it's not a R Brunonli, because the yellow in the center of the bloom is different, R Brunonli has a lot more & darker yellow......so I think I have a R Moschata for real. Please correct me if I am wrong. :-) I love the fragrance.

These don't look like moschata to me.

Ok, it's not moschata for real........ what is it? The blooms stay on the plant pretty well, we had a windy day today, still have a lot of blooms. I guess I have to get one from Rose Petals to compare.

Mine reflexes its petals back at the edges soon after opening, as seen in the pics
pat_bamaz7 previously posted in this thread back in September. There are several related "musk roses" beyond 'R. moschata' that it could be, in addition to hybrids thereof. The yellow centers to which you refer are actually the stamens and anthers, rather than a true yellow center on the petals. How separate they appear will change with respect to the angle of the picture. Before dismissing 'R. brunonii' completely as a possibility, look also at 'La Mortola', which is a seedling of it. This pic especially resembles yours. Ignore the yellower shade to the leaves on your plant. If it came from Palatine, it's on Multiflora rootstock, and that is prone to chlorosis in alkaline and/or iron-deficient soil -- as well as while getting established. Instead look at the shape and size of the leaflets. They do look rather similar, don't they?

:-)

~Christopher

Hi guys, the center yellow changed color now, getting darker, look again, is it real now? :-) Yes Chris, my one plant has darker green leaves and the smaller one has lighter color leaves, that's something to do with the soil......and no Chris, it doesn't look like 'La Mortola" at all.......look at the color in the center, 'La Mortola" is too yellow.......

That last pic is showing blooms which are probably two days old. The yellow is just the pollen and new stamens. Any yellow you see on petals in pics is just pollen dust. After blooms have been open for a couple days, the yellow is gone -- because the pollen has either blown off, been rinsed off, or been carried off by pollinators. See pic below.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.162545

But it could also be other things. Oh, and while you're inside, go in the kitchen and check your spices for a jar of cloves -- ground or whole. Open that and have a whiff. You'll get that scent from this family of roses -- not all, but many.



:-)

~Christopher

Thanks Chris. La Mortola is a once bloomer, mine is a repeater, they told me that and it's also on the tag. We will have to wait and see. :-) I can't wait to see your moschata photo next month. now I am really interested in finding out........

I found ground clovers, it smelled bad. :-) The blooms don't smell like that at all, it's a delightful fragrance.

Just took a tag photo in the dark, it also has a photo on it, just look like the blooms I have.

Ordered another one from Roses Unlimited, will compare them later. I hope these 2 repeat, but there are no more new buds coming out......would new buds keep coming through out the season for a real one? I will give them some Micro Grow tomorrow, they got to give me some new buds somehow. :-)

Are you looking in the 'right' place for the new buds? On my moschatas, first the spray blooms, then from within the spray, but above/farther out than the lowest stems than bear flowers, I see a new stem emerge, and that's where the next spray will appear.

Anyone who follows the 'rule' to cut down the stem to th first five leafed leaflet would be setting back their next bloom significantly.

Thanks Anne for the info. Went outside with a flashlight @ 11:20pm, checked the right place, there are no new stems yet. My goodness, I am so glad I didn't deadheading with HT rules, just cut off the spent blooms only, didn't cut off the stems. Will keep checking.

Still have no new buds on both plants......now I wish they were SGMC, at least they'd repeat, but the leaves on my SGMC are 7 leaflets...... Chris might be right, the blooms look like hmfusr's 'R. brunonii' on HMF.....but not sure about the leaves though.......

Chris, the leaves don't look like R Brunonli, mine all have 5 leaflets......

The leaves look like https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.28112