Instead of relying on the picture to design the layout, make a scaled plan of the area and draw it in 2D plan view and then draw circles to scale to represent the mature diameter of the plants in order to determine the number of plants that will fit in the beds. Dont know what climate zone you are in but are you going to provide a separate irrigation valve independent of the lawn? And what is the material for the lawn border edging the beds? What are the purple arrow plants? The only comment I have regarding the planting design is I'm not sure if the Hosta grouping and the Boxwood hedge go together. I would keep the "feel" the same. The hedge is a forced look whereas the Hostas are more casual, informal.

Thank you both!

I admit, I got alittle carried away with plants on my illustration. I lowered my bed about 6" in the corner and began to widen another 2'. Already looks better and less like a speed bump. Keeping bed curves simple and easy to mow will be paramount, thanks for reminding.

And thanks for the caution on false cypress. I'd really like to find a dwarf variety or something else to make a great contrast with Spruce. I do have a dwarf cypress that has been behaving very nicely in full sun only growing an inch per year. The Spruce I have in mind is called a fastigiata blue totem. It keeps a columnar shape and does not grow more than 15' x 36" wide. Pic shows one at local nursery (right).

I agree and see your point on boxwoods next to spaced picked being in the wrong place. I do like the idea of a boxwood hedge and that is one aspect I'm willing to maintain using dwarf English or velvet.

I am in zone 6b/ 7, just Northwest of Philadelphia by 30 minutes. I plan to use a simple above grade hose/sprinkler network on top of beds snaking between plants. Maybe not ideal but until I have beds established I'm not thinking that far.

I ran out of cardboard roll widening some of the bed areas so I have not gotten more topsoil yet.

Edging - I'd like to dress up the back curve in front of Blue totem location with a Pennsylvania fieldstone about 6-8" high. Maybe 20' feet worth centered at tree. then transition to a soil cut landscaped edge. If I ever get the time I'd like to do a flat stone to replace soil edging to help ensure a Lawnmower buffer and keep grass clippings from finding their way into beds.

we'll see....

Any of that make sense?

OK.

I'm done hauling dirt and here is the bed I ended up with. Perhaps not as wide as desired; which will eliminate some planting ideas, but I really do not want to sacrafice my lawn. That said, I generally like how it turned out. I have a bulb, bump out area around the maple tree, a built up area in corner and a bulb bump out area at the end.

I have been debating what to do ever since I started moving dirt. I am considering a few conifers to help keep color during winter.

Ideas for Areas: A, B, C, D

A - Low Blue Globe Spruce, Limelight Hydraingia Tree or (3) Wilma Goldcrest Cypress (Reaches 6 - 8 feet tall and 1 - 2 feet wide at maturity)

B - This area has shallow roots from a very large tree taken down. Maybe a spot to think about for now with perennials of some kind.

C - Golden Hinoki, Horstmann Blue Atlas Cedar, Dwarf Weeping Cypress, Baby Blue Eyes Spruce, Even thought Japanese Black Pine, Thunderhead but concerned about keeping up with pruning for Bonsai feel.

D - Hydraingia, Pieris Japonica, azalea, or rhododendron

I am trying to be sensitive to maturity growth on plants/trees. That said, any ideas or comments would be welcomed. Thanks again.

Kevin.

Thanks Gardengal48.

Point taken on the Goldcrest.

Slow growth rate is why I was thinking Hinoki for back corner. That is the one area I actually do have decent room which could maybe handle a Hinoki. I need to revisit conifer ideas for a similar growth rate as you suggest.

Thanks.

I personally love Hinokis and have a large collection. But Hinokis come in a very wide assortment of sizes and with various growth rates associated with them - some can get to significant size and do so fairly rapidly. Do your research first :-)

Hinokis can get large over time. Here's one of mine that's 35 years old.

It's the one on the left with a swollen trunk. I have several others almost as large. I had no idea 35 years ago. You have the Internet. Yes, research is important.

Mike

Wow! Mike - What the heck do you feed that think! Looks like a fun problem to deal with. My interweb tells me that hinokis come in maybe half a dozen varieties. I don't suppose you know the variety you have? Anymore pics of those monsters?

Half dozen??? How 'bout 250 or so!! This species of conifer has probably more registered cultivars than just about any other. I have more than a dozen different ones in my own meager little collection :-)

Based on the size of Mike's, I'd guess his are just the species Chamaecyparis obtusa, as most cultivars won't come anywhere near that size.

crap. really?!?! I stand corrected and overwhelmed. i suspect availability might cut my options severely. Any chance you have a bunch of pictures showing the 10 or so varieties you have? maybe a names to go with them?

Too many commercial pic online don't put them in garden setting's.

thanks!

I know my suggestions are coming late, but I would consider refining the bed line a bit more. I think it would work better at a simpler, clear-cut shape rather than a collection of somewhat miscellaneous curves. Also, it seems it could work better with the trees, giving them more clearance and incorporating the one tree by the garage into a bed, rather than being almost in a bed. The Limelight tree could go nearer to the back yard access gate, or stay put and get its own bump-out similar to the tree at opposite side of lawn. Some areas of bed depth seems a bit shallow. It would be easier to take care of plants if the bed was a bit wider in those areas. On the planting, it would look more "uptown" if instead of planting things in long skinny rows, you planted them in well proportioned "blocks." The skinny rows tend to lean toward looking "busy."

I have some called dwarfs that are about the right size for your garden.This one is Chamaecyparis obtusa, 'Nana Lutea'. 35 years old.

I don't have any photos (it's a long story that reflects very poorly on my technical aptitude :-)) but I am more than happy to share the names. You can do a Google image search to see what they look like (Iseli Nursery usually has excellent photos):

C. obtusa 'Gracilis', 'Chirimen', 'Sunny Swirl', 'Kosteri', 'Sunspray', 'Coralliformis', 'Meroke', Torulosa', 'Alaska', 'Mariesii', 'Bess', 'Golden Sprite' and 'Nana'. Tthere's a few more but I can't remember what and it's too dark to go out to check.

This is great everyone!

Mike- Very impressed on size of Hinokis. If I go this route, I will; however, stay away from that variety. thanks for the extra picture. Big help.


Gardengal - Thanks for the list. I'll need to look into these to better understand varieties and then consultant my local nurseries.


Yard - I really do like your approach, especially including the very large maple and Holly hedge into the bed.

The other small maple being part of the bed seems to be a no-brainer too. I have; however, thought to cut that tree down to help open up the yard next to garage. in either case that bed; or lack thereof, will get pushed out.

I'm concerned that I will miss my window on planting if I continue to work time in for additional bed development. I'm thinking to plant a few key areas like the fence corner and spot where limelight was designated. Then come back to work on bed next to garage.

until I have the deck rebuilt and path put in from gate to deck, I'm reluctant to push the beds out that direction. But think that would be a good modification in the future.

Thanks for the direction, you always deliver. Finding time to execute is sometimes my bigger challenge.

OK. follow-up.

I went to nursery and fell for a Hinokis obtusa 'Crippsii'. Measures about 7' for $195.

Do you think I would be pushing it to plant in this corner location, knowing it might reach 20' or more?

Tree would face West getting morning sun til 11, part shade 11-1, sun 1-3, part shade. Fence should protect Northern winter wind during its younger life.

If this was your corner, would you try it? Or, what else comes to mind as a conifer alternative?

As always, thanks for reading
Kevin

more pics.

Because you'll be growing it in the shrub form (with foliage to ground) be aware that as it gets big, you may be forced to change it to tree form (limbed up above the fence.) Landscapes usually must be tweaked over time as things grow.

In my area, these can get BIG!! Allow plenty of room for the tree to develop and spread without interference from the fence. Planting too close to the fence will shade out the growth on that side, leaving unattractive bare, brown spots. And you want good airflow around the tree as well.

thanks Yard.


I'm thinking to jump ship on Hinokis and go with Cedrus deodara 'Feelin' Blue'.

I think it might behave better to pruning and still provide the corner interest I'm after. not sure I want to set myself up for drastic pruning years later.

Truth is it could have been fine. But I see many large Hinokis online and do not wish for that kind of size.

found this one today.

You have all been key in helping the decision process.

Thanks.

thanks Yard.


I'm thinking to jump ship on Hinokis and go with Cedrus deodara 'Feelin' Blue'.

I think it might behave better to pruning and still provide the corner interest I'm after. not sure I want to set myself up for drastic pruning years later.

Truth is it could have been fine. But I see many large Hinokis online and do not wish for that kind of size.

found this one today.

You have all been key in helping the decision process.

Thanks.

The Chamaecyparis obtusa, 'Crippsii' can get large over time. You can always remove the lower branches when it does and plant under it. The top would block your view of the grey house behind it.

I design the beds to be wider where the view is not so good and narrower where it is good. Makes it easier to block the bad views and see the good views.

Here's my Crippsii at 30 years.

Mike

Valid point Mike. You have an amazing collection of mature Hinokis.

That Deodara cedar is beautiful. But I agree with Mike. I thought part of the goal was to screen the house in the back corner. If the cedar only gets 6-7', it might not do that very well. (Of course, as you can see from the Hinoki examples, the tree could well exceed the height on the tag with time.) Weren't you looking at something taller but narrower at one point?

Mike, your Hinokis are incredible.

atmoscat. - Indeed. My thoughts on what do do has been all over the place. Blue Totem Spruce was my initial thought, but wife thinks its a bit boring.

Blocking the house would be nice, but almost impossible. I would rather not have a big massive screen for fear my yard would get too enclosed and look smaller than it already is.

I need to follow up with Nursery about 'Feeling Blue'. tag says 2' - 4', but truly already 5-6' tall (see pic). wondering what it really is or will be???

Thanks.

Ok... Nursery confirmed that the upright 'Feeling Blue' Cedar will not grow much more but actually start to drap down. So no more height.

Atmoscat - Your comment weighed on me and I regained focus on a true desire to at least limit some of the neighbors house.

I would have regreted the cedar height.

So I found an (expensive) alternative: 'Little Gem Magnolia'. I taged the one pictured which stands about 6' or so and will get to heights at or above 20'. In 30 years I'll just have to deal with whatever truely happens. I like the idea of pruning or limbing up a Magnolia; if and when needed, over a Hinoki. I still get the winter foiliage and now summer flowers.

I live in a 1920's Colonial. Perhaps the Magnolia is a better fit for the house anyways.

You all gave me lots to think over. Thanks!

....A work in Progress.

What would be your intention in limbing up a magnolia? . I ask because if you plan on sitting under it, mowing under it or having 6 feet of trunk exposed, you should consider magolias' growing habits and how it responds to pruning.

My impression is that low branching is the 'habit' or inclination of many magnolias'. Magnolias send up ugly water shoots (small branches that go straight up) when too much is pruned at one time. You have to prune magnolias very slowly and very little over time. Of course there are many different magnolias, including multi trunk and shrubby ones. But honestly, I've never seen a magnolia that's growing like a oak with a straight arrow trunk and broad canopy.. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong on any points.

It is very shallow rooted and as it gets older the roots may actually be very near the surface. This is fine if you don't plan to sit under it or mow.

They are lovely trees. I have two yellow ones, Elizabeth and Yellow Bird and there nothing sweeter to look at or smell in spring. If you want to learn more ask questions on the Tree Forum and check out Plant Amnesty's Youtube 'pruning tips for magnolias'.

thanks Marie. I'll check out the video.

I see your point and actually would prefer minimal need to prune given the right plant/ tree.

Since you have two on your property. Do you think the 'little gem' will work (aesthetically) in this spot?

I sure hope you haven't gotten the magnolia yet.........I would really have trouble with this selection being a long term landscape choice in your zone and area. And by your admission, an expensive one as well. This tree does not hold up well to any snow loads, gets damaged by winter winds even in my very mild climate and is prone to powdery mildew which can result in considerable defoliation. It is only just borderline hardy in your zone. Another winter like the last two and you won't ever see flowers from this tree!

I hate to be nixing all your choices (actually I really like the cedar but it presents a very different appearance than what I think you are after) but I cannot in good conscience recommend this tree for your location.

Let's approach this from a different direction: list the qualities you want this tree to provide for you - max. width and height you can accommodate, appearance/form, flowers or fall coloring, seasonal (summer) privacy or year round privacy, light conditions, etc. Once we know the criteria maybe we can make some more reasoned suggestions for you.

The one thing I want you to avoid is rushing out and buying whatever the local nurseries may have on hand. If it's not the right plant for the right place, you are just wasting money, time and effort. Let's find you the right plant even if it means you may need to wait until early next spring to plant.

Here's a couple of thoughts for you to check out at any area nurseries - I know you like Hinokis and they are well suited to your climate. Look to see if anyone has 'Gracilis', 'Compacta' or 'Well's Special' in stock. And they don't need to be huge immediately. All of these will attain a reasonable height (10-15' in 10 years) and width but will not overwhelm a small garden

Thanks Gardengal.

I have not purchased yet.


What I'm after:
-Winter interest/foliage
-West exposure
-Full sun left fence wall
-Part sun/ shade rear fence wall
-Block or partially block neighbors house
-20-25' tall max
-8' wide max
-Specimen to base other plantings on.

I got spooked on Hinokis, but I could reconsider. I like Crype Myrtles, but they look dead until June/July.

If it makes sense to get over 'winter-interest' for something that would be amazing for the spot I will certainly listen.


Thanks!
Kevin

You got spooked on HInokis because you were looking at examples of some of the largest growing varieties - Mike's species monsters (which are seldom offered in the retail trade) and Crippsii, which does get very large over time. But those are only two of the couple hundred varieties available, most of which won't even come close to the maximum size restraints you have listed.

Do some research on the ones I listed, particularly the slender Hinoki (ctv. 'Gracilis') or the 'Well's Special'. Neither of these will outgrow your space for decades, if ever.

Have you considered the possibility of a small deciduous tree with a modest canopy? Something like an upright Japanese maple or a paperbark maple? These make stunning specimens in small gardens, will grow to a modest height, offer some degree of winter interest (bark, structural form) and can be used as an anchor around which to plan complimentary plantings.

Thanks Gardengal48.

I started my hunt for 'Wells Special' and 'Gracillis' at 6'.

I actually have four (4) Japanese Maples in my backyard, great trees. Besides my Yew bush/tree, I really have no other evergreen/conifers which brought me down this path to get more.

See backyard picture (from bedroom window). Large, maybe 50 year old Japanese Bloodgood leaves are in the foreground and the other two can be seen on the right with one in the bed. The fouth one is behind the garage.

I thought I might already have plenty of canopy trees. We recently cut down a huge maple on our property line which has opened up the yard.

If I add another canopy tree I thought about a Cherry Blossom but they might get overwhelming for that spot too. Unless it does well for a prune to fit. I don't know much about them.

The nursery people are saying that the 'Little Gem Magnolias' are hardy in this area but are likley to loose a bit more leaves than if I was further South. They appear to take a bit more maintenance with water than others.

Low maintenance would be a plus by the way.

Thanks again.

Kevin.

Sorry to hear the magnolia won't work out, but it's probably better not to risk it. I just planted a Well's Special Hinoki cypress in my yard this spring, and I love it. They are beautiful trees - really dark green, lots of texture, nice size. I found a 6-7' specimen at my local garden center, so they are pretty widely available.

Another similar-looking tree you might try is thuja (arborvitae) Degroot's Spire. It is quite narrow (4-6') and can get 20-30' tall. It seems to have a similar texture to some Hinokis (from pictures - I haven't grown one). You could maybe do a grouping of 3 in that back corner, which would give you some width horizontally to screen the house without taking up too much depth in your yard.

As an alternative, what about a holly? They may get broader than some of the other possibilities you are considering, but maybe that's not a bad thing for screening above the fence. And they have great winter interest.

I'm glad you decided that screening in the back is a priority. But, rather than giving up on the Deodara cedar, what about using it in one of the other specimen locations in your plan? It could work either near the front right corner, where you have a single yellow pentagon, or on the other side where you have the limelight tree (and put the limelight tree at the front right corner or next to the garage.) Unless you prune, the limelight will probably get significantly bigger than the cedar, so if you do use the cedar, think about that when deciding where each should go. (Which probably means it would be better to put the cedar on the right.)

I see that you are repeating the yellow pentagons around the yard, which I think is a really good idea. If you put the cedar in the front right corner, you could repeat a different blue conifer, like a low-growing juniper or dwarf blue spruce, in the other locations instead of repeating the cedar. You'd get the continuity of the color, but with different forms.

I'm just a home gardener throwing out some ideas, so if the experts suggest something different, listen to them!

Thanks Atmoscat. Any chance you have a picture of your 'Wells' Hinoki, I'd love to see it? Nursery pics online never seem to give me a good idea on how it actually looks planted.

I'm hoping once I get past this feature corner the rest of the plantings will be much easier!

Sure, I can take a picture for you, as soon as it stops raining! Not that I mind - we needed rain soooooo badly. The garden is happy today.

Thanks.

I have an offer to pull one out of someones yard but that will cost money on a entirely different level. Owner said he bought it 3' and it grew to 8' in 15 years. Thats about 4" a year if my math is right. I believe this is the Gracillis variety.

Cost to relocate a tree this size and survival rate is likley going to make me pass on this adventure.

Probably max width im looking for. Another 10 years could add another 3' wide.

Still not over the idea of Litte Gem Magnolia. I have ready both favorable and unfavorable reviews for my area. Winter survival seems to be the major tricked as explained.

Thanks.

19kev77, why does the owner want it removed?

It it's getting in the way of pedestrian traffic, it can always be limbed up. Might look a little awkward at first but it will grow into it.

I have a Chamaecyparis obtusa, 'Nana Lutea' or two. Here's one of them at about 18 years.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/Botann/IMG_2193.jpgMike

Mike,

We didn't get into it but he said he was redoing the front area of his yard. I told him that I was passing on the relocation idea and suggested he limb up like you said, at least before he cuts it down.

Your property is unreal.

Is that your Lizard hedge??? or someplace else?

It's my lizard hedge. I call it a crocagator. That's meaner sounding than Alladile. I started it from cuttings from a Japanese Holly called Illex crenata, 'Convexa'. In my climate it takes to trimming better than Boxwood. Less fussy too. 'Aero' is about 30 yrs old.

Over the years his trimming has been getting more and more out of proportion. My wife says he's getting fat. He lost his neck when his shoulders and head grew together. So, I'm thinking of cutting him back to stubs next Spring and regrow him. He'll grow back real fast. I should have made him longer and kept him skinnier.

I'll get a current picture of him in the morning.

Mike

Sorry, No experience with m. LG.

I listen when gardengal speaks.

For overall interest over time, I'd pick a hinoki every time. I think I have 6....one too big, two small and a couple that are "just right" Never met one I didn't like even if I couldn't fit it in my garden. The too big one survived a garden remodel because it was too beautiful to remove. I preferred to re-design around it. It just evolved to become the centerpiece.

Thanks Marie.

I too value Gardegal's comments! Very informative.

Don't get me wrong, I love Hinoki for this spot. I'm just second guessing how well it will really screen the Blue house behind me. And how long until the it will take to develop a screen, partial or full.

Foregoing the winter months screen, maybe a deciduous tree that won't complete with Maple would be a better bet.

Something that can handle a columnar shape and not bleed into the maple canopy.

So my scatterbrains has thought:
-River Birch
-Eastern Redbud
-Japanese Cherry
-Crepe Myrtle

A hardy Magnolia variety looks like it would get much too big for this spot.

If I were to go the deciduous route, any thoughts on what might work?

Thanks all !!!

Screening trees: Arborvitae DeGroots is beautiful and less common than arborvitae Smaarg. Smaarg or Emerald green is what you are more likely to find at Big Boxes and garden centers. Except for Smaarg's overuse, it is a perfectly suitable tree for accent or screening. People who live where there's a heavy snow load are concerned about arborvitae's branches splaying. That can happen but there are ways of dealing with it.

I have a "skyrocket" juniper that is lovely. Very narrow and the berries (blue) add texture.

I struggle with design. Nevertheless, my thought on screening is to not ""make a point of it." A tall conifer and spreading deciduous or a columnar deciduous screen would be part of the your larger varied landscape plan. If you planted three of the same right in front of the blue house....to satisfy an immediate need for screening....It would just look like a lump of green. If you don't want to lose a season (or save $ this sale season), make a decision and put a servicable conifer or three there. (peraps Degroots....tall, compact,; chamy. gracilimas ( ferny wide) and???? Please do not plant them too close together or they'll shade out each other's branches and brown out. (the risks of monoculture is another reason not to plant many of the same plant. If one dies a newly planted one will look out of place for a while. If one gets a disease, they may all be affected) Avoid a straight line...stagger. If you carefully consider their ultimate size you'll also see why the proportions of your beds should be larger and wider.

I honestly think once you have an interesting "front" to that fence and your attention and energy are engaged with planting you will barely notice the offending house. The house is far from ugly and has interesting architecture. Think of it as "visual noise" but it need not dictate all your plant choices .

I concur with some others that the beds need bigger more graceful curves and should be considerably deeper. Have you tried using a hose for laying out?

You haven't mentioned whether children might be using the space. If that's a possiblity it might be a factor to consider....I firmly believe kids and gardens can co-exist just fine. Touch football and soccer make another situation all together!

Sorry to be so slow in posting a pic of my Hinoki 'Wells Special'. Here it is:

It's maybe 6.5' tall. It's fairly conical and narrow at the top. I don't have much of a sense yet of how fast it will grow or whether it will stay narrow or get broader like the one you were considering moving. (That tree is gorgeous. What a shame that they are going to cut it down! But I can understand not taking on the move.)

I agree a single Hinoki may not give you much screening, but it will draw attention from the house behind (which I also agree is not unattractive.) If you really want to screen it with conifers, you may need to do a grouping (and for that you may need a narrower variety like DeGroot's).

A deciduous tree gives you the advantage of having a wider canopy up top, where you need it, and will also allow you to plant below. Of the ones you mentioned, I love redbuds. They are beautiful trees. I think they tend to have a spreading canopy rather than conical. The river birch could be very nice, though I think the canopy is not very dense. But I like that it would have more of a contrast in form with the existing maples.

I also agree with all the other comments about making the beds deeper. Sorry I don't have too much specific advice, really, just some things to think about.

I'm back.

Since October I paused on planting and opened up some of the beds a bit. I decided to incorperate the maple next to garage with a wider bed. Leaving grass strip would have been annoying to mow.

Taking a fresh look at this space now. Sun is the last bit of the day, left fence line sees sun all day long. The garage wall get an hour in the AM, then shade all day.

1. In the covered area I wanted to do a centered specimen plant/tree. Thought of: Limelight Hydraingia, Dwarf Pinus thunbergii variety, weeping cherry, Globe Blue spruce. In any case I would then like to take maybe 6 or 8 boxwoods and half circle around specimen. Any thoughts on how you might use this space?

2. In the back corner I'm still leaning towards Little Gem Magnolia. I like th idea of an evergreen. Although I have thought of Star Magnolia, Redbud, Laurel tree form. Any thoughts on how you might use this space?

3. Between areas 1 and 2 I thought to tie together with boxwoods, ornmanetal grass, silva, sedum an ongoing theme as not to look like seperate areas.

4. In the far back between corner and maple thinking white Camellia, hydraingia or rhododendron.

5. Area left of garage another spot for Camellia, rhododendron or other.

Low maintenance and affordability needs to be considered. I know boxwoods are expensive but I may just deal with that if it seems like a good idea.

I'm looking for a calm and relaxing approach here. So blue, purples, whites might be prefered. loud mixed random colors are not what I am really after.

As always, thanks for reading.

Kevin.

I've learned so much from this one thread! It would be great to an update from 19kev77 if possible.

So, how did it turn out?

UPDATE. 

Had plans to add more boxwoods to the left in the foreground of the little limelight hydrangea tree.  May still do it to balance the two areas.

Limelace in the back has been a great addition brightening up the far back.

I need to cut back green maple but it's really struggling from years of ants making it their home.  Split and heavily cracked trunck and limbs.  You wouldn't know it from this pic.

Thanks for asking about it.  I've enjoyed the work and always looking to improve.

Omg! I love it! What a great update. You’re edging is top notch, and it looks beautiful. Everything looks very well considered. 👏

Great job. Looks terrific