I have a little time to kill before we have to pack the car to leave, so... against my better judgment I went back to read the last couple of posts Jane wrote...

"Isn't that what I've been saying for years?"

No, it isn't. What you advocate is exactly the opposite.

Not to mention, the post you quoted from was written back in June of 2010. What year is it now? Could it be possible that I've changed things in half a decade?

"Jodik, why don't you come back to 'Orchids.'"

No, thank you. I had my fill once... a very long time ago. It was enough, no offense to the majority of members within that forum.

And if you'd been paying attention, you'd have noted that I often described that window as the worst place to grow anything... and one of the only reasons I am able to grow anything in it is because of the plant types I choose, and the medium I choose to utilize.

Oh... look at that... I'm out of time.

Have a nice night, everyone.

Tapla writes: "Jane - do you really not understand why you are questioned or called out
so often? It's because of ridiculous predictions and statements like
the one you just made (in bold) ............ and do you realize how much
cognitive dissonance you managed to pack into one post?"

I am not questioned by anyone. Only you.

Most people are not going to look around or spend the money on your potting mix for houseplants or large container plants. Just won't happen. They will try it and move on. You don't see people returning on this forum. Just the 'old troops' which seemed to have dwindled to 1.

That's okay, That's what you offer, I offer an alternative, reality. Both work. One for little plants, another for larger plants. One style for specific hobbyists and another style for the average grower.

Gary, that is very interesting. I have ordered orchids over the years from a nursery in California. They pot everything in packed sphagnum moss. It always bothered me and I immediately would spend hours trying to get the roots out of the sphag to repot. Then I did finally called them and asked why their plants, even the dry growers (Catts) are packed in sphag?

Their research showed most of their orchids were healthier and grew better in sphag. I certainly did not believe it and its taken some years for me to really give it a try. Most importantly the climate in Florida is a challenge. But a have a few orchids, Yellow Bird and Puppy Love which I got a year ago. Packed tight in sphag. Never repotted and both plants are spiking. But the most interesting thing is they have not sent out any aerial roots. The small, clear plastic pots are full of beautiful roots. All inside the pot!

Another weird thing, I have three ficus bonsai. I carried them from NY in their tiny pots. I also have a Momosa, given as a gift in 2008 still in the original pot.

Before I moved from NY, I repotted all of them in a mix of potting soil and small orchid bark. I root pruned them all and stuck them back in the original pots.

They are happy, happy. They have gotten so big. The Mimosa is flowering, the ficus are about 2 ft. They all look too big for the pots and will get pruned next Spring and repotted. I keep telling friends, Florida is like a steroid for plants.

Jane

Fred

Since you asked ??lol Here is a pic of my semi hydroponic area . The tree on the right with red /yellow flowers is grown in compacted sphag . is around 25 years old . The goal was to keep at 50 percent growth potential while not interferring with flowering Generally has done that BUt does require at least 50 percent removal at least once a year . All the plants in the pic are grown in pots with various media save the large palm in the far background it was trasferred from sphag around 5 years ago into the ground . It still has maintained around 50 percent potential .The white area is the edge of the fish/lily pond which overflows into the potted forground which is why I used the term "semi Hydro" they are raised so never completely floods I generally keep 30/40 species of plants in the area . This is my attempt to integrate all the plants into a "landscape" In the midground are a couple of other "dwarfed subjects that lack details . As you can see I'm a collector who lives on a very small lot het loves giant plants lol Hopefully they will continue to NOT live up to genetic potential ??lol gary

JANE - it's not about MY mix or MY recipes - it's about helping others keep their root systems, and by extension their plants happy by applying a concept that serves them well no matter what soils they choose or use.

You don't offer an alternative. You offer a compromise that helps people who don't want to water, avoid watering, and that comes with issues that rightly need to be explained so people understand what the compromise IS. You avoid watering by increasing the volume of perched water your media hold - good for you - bad for plants. When you tell people it's good for plants or equal in potential to media that hold less water - you do a disservice unless you qualify your suggestions honestly. When you don't qualify, when you're disingenuous and make broad, sweeping statements that are completely wrong/unsupported, and someone qualifies what you said because you didn't/won't, you take offense. I don't start fights - I offer straightforward information and support it with facts and sound reasoning/logic. I've never seen anyone on these forums insist on operating so far beyond the limits of their understanding as you.

You have read the thousands of posts that illustrate people don't "try it and move on" - everyone that gains an understanding of the concept behind the soils has a better growing experience as a result. Knowledge is power over your plants.

Old troops? New troops? There are a mix of both because your tactics have been outed again, and that's what's been driving people to comment.

Al

I was disinclined to make further comments to this thread but recent activity has compelled me to try again :-) I am not sure if it is just a case of overlooking what was written previously, intentional ignoring (since it didn't confirm some preconceived mistaken concept) or lack of reading comprehension but I am here to tell you, Jane, that I for one question your methods - they sure as heck don't match my results!! I am one of those who disprove your statement that "Most people are not going to look around or spend the money on your
potting mix for houseplants or large container plants. Just won't
happen. They will try it and move on". And I am not alone by a long shot!

Yes, I've moved on - moved on to using these mixes for ALL my container plants, both indoors and out. And outside plants are definitely "large container plants" - a big collection of Japanese maples, conifers and assorted other trees and shrubs and succulents. The 5-1-1 or gritty mix works beautifully for all these plants and requires no more effort or attention - in fact, quite a bit less - than a less well-aerated mix does. Why is this so hard to understand or accept?? Your "reality" (??) is simply not borne out by my experience - these mixes work as well, if not better, for larger plants as they do for small. And I am not a "specific hobbyist" but just an average (maybe a bit above above average :-)) gardener with a lack of real estate in which to grow and therefore a penchant for growing in a large collection of containers.

I don't frequent this forum as often as some others but I do drop in from time to time and comment when I feel I have something to add. And your comments on this thread in particular has certainly motivated my response! I can't recall another instance when I've encountered anyone with as closed minded and unreceptive an attitude as you display.....why is that? What precisely about these mixes do you find so objectionable? Have you even tried them?

And while I do not want to get into personalties, I would encourage you to consider backing off of this platform as the more you post on this thread, the less credibility your 'reality' and your statements carry. You are unable or unwilling to support your contentions yet you feel it necessary to denigrate those who are able to offer both scientific and experiential evidence that other methods work and work well. Honestly, your constant repetition of really nothing of value and your frequent slams and name calling of well-respected forum members is coming across as rather pathetic. Maybe you should just deal with your orchids and give the real container gardeners a rest?

That's really the bottom line, the point that Al and others are trying to make... it's not so much the exact ingredients one chooses to employ in the medium they use... it's the CONCEPT!

Once you understand the basic concept, you can employ a variety of different mediums... or items to build your own... or substitute as needed... or change ratios used... etc... etc...

And that concept is something most of us learned in middle school... or were supposed to learn in middle school, if we paid attention. Most of didn't think we'd be applying what we learned in basic science class to our growing so many years later, though. I surely didn't.

And it doesn't help that the gardening industry, like any other, is all about profit... not about what's best for the consumer.

Another problem we run into a lot are the many old wive's tales and fallacies that make the rounds regarding container gardening... none of them with the answers to "how" or "why" it works.

I never thought, back when I was struggling to grow Amaryllids in what was basically soggy silt and peat... and then a coir product that someone recommended (without any qualification, I might add) that all my frustrations would lead me to search... and that search would end up here, in this very forum, with Al's article on "Container Soils - Water Movement & Retention"... and what a breakthrough it would be for me!

Once I understood the basic concept, which is simply basic physics, the world of growing opened up for me in a way I can't even describe! It did take a little adjustment on my part, but once I found that groove, which was so very easy to find, I began to SEE the results with my own eyes!

I would re-pot a bulb, and take a look at its roots, and they looked nothing like they had in the past! At one time, every re-potting was because of a problem, mostly rot... not because my bulbs were growing so well they required bigger pots for their much healthier, fleshier, more abundant root systems!

And healthier root systems mean healthier plants... that's just a simple fact!

It all begins under the soil... and that medium, when in a confined situation... or in a pot... dictates how those roots will grow, how healthy they will be by the very simple idea of how water behaves as it moves through various materials within that confined space.

The concept is so simple that I can't believe it never occurred to me before I read Al's article... I'm not the smartest cookie in the bag, but I'm not a dumb blonde by a long shot! (It's just dye, I swear!) I very regularly use critical thought, problem solving skills, and common sense. I guess sometimes we just need a little help, a little push in the right direction... and though Al has never called on me as defensive tackle, I feel obligated to add my 2 cents at times because there's no logic in letting misinformation stand, or form the basis of someone's growing experience; that wouldn't be right or fair to others who are looking for real information and workable methods to apply.

Jodik.

Actually they do what's best for the consumer sort of.....

They know most would like to water their plants as little as possible since it would interfere with other important priorities other than their potted plants..........

Then they know that once their plants die because of their mixes and the lack of knowledge as to why they do, or how their peaty mixes work against them, affecting the roots systems in such a short period of time for the worst, they will just run out and get another..

You see, both the grower and the the company benefit while the plants fall by the wayside...

I never started this argument. I gave my advice to someone. Why is that so threatening to everyone? I just don't understand why I get accused of starting a problem.

I have not said 'gritty' is not a good concept. People who use it will decide for themselves. There are variables involved in growing which include other factors. I cannot advise people on one aspect. I like a holistic approach to growing.

It is silly to keep trying to prove your way is the only way. Take a close look at Gary's photos. All container plants.

I have a lot of plants. I do not have the ability nor desire to water daily or even multiple times a day. Never did. That makes growing a chore for me. That's a personal choice. To each his own.

Al, you make it sound like its a terrible thing when I choose not to be a slave to watering. That is my choice. Why don't you understand that? That is my choice and it works well for me, always has. I enjoy what I do and am very happy with the way my plants grow. Isn't that what growing is all about?

My plants have been with me a long time. Some over 20 years. Still happy and healthy. That's exactly what I want.

Gardengal, jodik and Mike.

I don't believe I'm giving false information. There would be no point to that. I'm simply offering what has worked for me and many others. Take it or leave it. Why not spend your energy on something other than continually trying to discredit me. Life is short, lol.

Let people hear from other growers. It would be wonderful if people could share their experiences without having to deal with what is happening to me. So many people are afraid to post here. How sad.

I would like to welcome those who would like to be a part of this forum and share their growing experiences comfortable. That's it!

Jane

I think we going around in circles. Monica's question have been addressed in detail, both directly and between the lines. I just read the whole tread again and the answer has been well layed out by Al...

"Monica - a soil that doesn't hold a lot of excess moisture and holds plenty of air will go a long way toward preventing both root rot and the fungaluglies that plague plants in water-retentive soils during periods of rain. Also, the fungal issues that affect foliage during humid, airless conditions aren't the same fungi that cause root rot. Finally, a fungicide isn't a cure for fungus gnats".

Jane. Perhaps you should put up a new thread about your alternatives so it can be well discussed in detail, to the benefit of others that don't follow this thread. Just a thought... :-)

"I never started this argument." You did, by directly contradicting me 3 times, then turning the disagreement personal. "It is silly to keep trying to prove your way is the only way." Prevarication - have never said it or acted like it. "I do not have the ability nor desire to water daily or even multiple times a day." You continue to mislead people into thinking that using the gritty mix or the 5:1:1 mix or similar requires daily or multiple waterings daily by grossly distorting reality. "Al, you make it sound like its a terrible thing when I choose not to be a slave to watering." No, Jane. I don't ever make it sound that way, not EVER; and I don't care what you or others choose to do. I only care that they have good info to make decisions. The extended watering intervals that you demand come with trappings. The perched water that allows these extended intervals IS limiting. An inconvenient truth, but a fact, just the same. Nothing you can say can change that fact. I'm happy you're happy, but please don't tell others it's somehow superior to growing in soils that are healthier for roots, or that as an alternative it's on equal footing. It is inferior because it cannot offer plants the same opportunity to realize their potential as more structurally sound soils. "I don't believe I'm giving false information." This thread and others are full of your distortions, innuendos, and prevarication. Instead of whining about everyone and everything, how about taking a moment to explain how to get more from the growing experience by following your instructions. You can't.

Al

Hello Everyone!!!

I just wanted to comment and say that I have been following this thread but since I work a lot of long hours (14-16 hours a day) it's hard to get my rest when I am out on the road working....but I did want to comment now that I have a few days off.

I am not afraid of posting to express my experiences especially when I use this mix ( 5-1-1 and or Gritty mix). All of my 150 or so containers are in this type of mix and I don't feel like I'm tied to watering my containers every day. If this were the case, I would not have the collection that I have worked on for many, many years. Being in the travel industry, I have to be away from my home for sometimes 4 days at a time. Adjusting the ingredients and knowing " the concept" is the key. It benefits me as the grower, but more importantly... it benefits my plants even more.

Posting pictures could be a validation for my growing experiences, but I don't want to take away from the OP. ( believe me , I love posting pictures of my trees! ;-)

Monica.. I think you have been very gracious and patient with your thread and I personally want to thank you for letting others express what they think and how they want to share why they/ I feel so passionately about Al's explanations ...

Im sure that these discussions have made others nervous about asking questions or even posting for that matter, but I want those people searching to remember that it's a friendly forum and they should always feel free to express what ever ideas, problems and or questions they may have.

Using these concepts has been the best experiences I have ever had when it comes to my plants growing needs.

When we say.. " it's all about the roots.. " I have to smile and just post a picture of one my large containers . It's one of forty Adeniums that I grow. I also have conifers, Cactus, Plumeria and other tropicals...

Lets let these "roots" express how happy they are.. ;-)

My Adenium growing in the Gritty Mix.

Interesting discussion ..

Have a great evening everyone!!

Mahalo Nui Loa!

Laura

Laura, well it's about time you get days off...So lovely put! LOVE those roots ! Please don't tell me you just took that pic today??/ I will be so jealous if your pool is still open and the killing frost has not even touched your yard yet..lol

You hit it right on the head...

Monica...,

If you are reading this...I have DOZENS OF Hoya, lots of them and I grow them in a mix using the concepts outlined here..What you asked was a great question and many have told me that they are happy you did...You have NO idea on how much this thread that you started has helped so many, well even me....

If you you can decipher what is best for you plants, Hoya in particular from here, then you asked a great question! Please, don't be afraid to ask more..You have been a blessing here with your questions and keep asking away...

By the way, if you should ever need a cutting of a Hoya or something I have that I can share, I would hook you up..Once you feel confident that you can grow your plants as healthy as you want even in days of rain, you will be looking for more, trust me...

Listen, would you like me to post a few pics for you that have been in rain for days even in cool temps in the mix that I have always used? I would even post a couple of some very rare Jades that not too many people can leave out in very cold temps this far up north or the rain or both combined in anything but a gritty type mix based on the concepts that I learned here years ago... Let me know)

Mike..

"So many people are afraid to post here. How sad."

How exactly have you come by this information? Do folks check in with you before attempting to post here? Odd, but I never saw that particular direction under the forum heading or in the FAQ's.

At nearly 10,000 posts, this is a pretty darn active forum - one of the most frequently visited on GW - so it can't be chasing too many folks away. And that number of posts includes the longest running, most frequently responded to or referred to thread on all of GardenWeb, now approaching 3500 posts all by itself!! Somebody - in fact, a lot of somebodies - seem to be very interested in the information being dispensed and the advice given.

Jane, misstatements like the above (and I am being very generous with that term) are not helping you to make your case. You really need to reread your comments to this thread and what you write before sending and examine your positions, your phrasing and word choice and your extremely defensive posture and see if maybe you can ferret out of them a bit of the discord and contentiousness that is apparent and so obvious to all the rest of us. It is not that we are trying to discredit you - you seem to be managing that perfectly well all on your own - but it is your discrediting of Al and other posters that is causing controversy and dissension. Can't you see that??

I also wanted to say that I have learned so much on this thread and I'm glad if it helped others as well but I do feel badly if it caused tension and frustration to a lot of people that have been "here" a lot longer than me. Sorry! Maybe we can all agree to just disagree about the subject? Just trying to extend the olive branch.

Now.....I'm thinking about an olive tree in a container. Anyone have luck with olive trees? lol

Please don't think that you were the cause of the tension, Monica. This is an issue that has previously bubbled to the surface on many occasions, and it had nothing to do with your offering. You just happened to be the unfortunate, even if patient, victim.

Honestly, I've said more than I ever intended to say, and it's a good time to apologize to you for backsliding into the mire. I'm sorry. If I haven't burned the bridge, please do ask if you ever think there is anything I might be able to help you with. I'd do my best to try to make it up to you.

Al

"Anyone have luck with olive trees? lol"

Indeed Monica. Easy to grow really. Does better in a gritty/5.1.1 that in "dirt".... LOL ;-)

Thanks Al! I appreciate it. You have already helped me more than you know. Before I posted about the tremendous amount of rain we were getting in NC at the time, I never knew anything about the 5-1-1 or gritty mix. I was a victim of the mass marketing of Miracle Grow and big box stores. I thought I was doing right by using the citrus blend.....even with my husband saying the soil was okay just use the insecticide my gut was saying there must be something else I could do to help these plants.. I forget what I googled that brought me to you but I'm SO glad I found you and this web page. I have since changed the soil in ALL my plants and I'm already seeing a difference. Now I'm more confident and buying more plants! lol

Fred - I'm going to put an olive tree on my shopping list! Is there a particular variety that is the easiest to grow for a beginner? Thanks.

Olive trees do like a Mediterranean climate, which sort of fits you, except maybe for the humidity. Vigor is a genetic commodity, and olives are blessed with an abundance of it, so they have a strong will to live.

Al

M - I was working the keyboard as you were posting. I'm really surprised by the offering of your gracious thoughts. Who'da thought, after all the strife? All I can say is thanks for not thinking too ill of me. ;-)

I'm really glad you feel like you're getting more rewards for your efforts - that's the stuff enthusiasm is made of, and enthusiasm's a valuable trait that everyone looks for in those they choose to help, just because it makes helping more fun.

Black olive or European olive are both good choices and both vigorous. Take your pick. Be careful with what you spray the black olive with - they're finicky about that. Euro olive - not so much. Both would be particularly happy in some variation of the gritty mix, but if you like the 5:1:1 mix, it can be made to serve very well, too. Neither plant tolerates wet feet well, so you already have a good idea what to avoid in terms of soil.

Al

Fred - I just noticed that Monica asked you about the olive trees and I answered instead. I'm sorry for cutting in front of you - I didn't see your name until after I posted. Hopefully, you'll have something additional to add. I beg a pardon.

Al

Nah I was actually just joking ;-)

I love olives. They are generally vigorous and forgiving. Very tolerant when it comes to disturbing their roots to.

I imported some wild African olive seeds. 5 germinated and are doing well so far in this wet NZ weather. They usually don't like to much water, so the soil is critical. Planning to have some good fun with them...

Don't laugh, but I have about 6 different kinds in the gritty and 5.1.1 mixes. The ones in the grittier mixes seem happier than the ones even in the 5.1.1 mixes. They are very salt intolerant and do wonders for me in open mixes! I can leave them even through light frosts. They are not the easiest to grow in peaty or soil mixes but very easy in porous mixes. Their leaves are hard to keep green without browning and bugs , and branches die back with the slightest constant wet feet. In these mixes they relish in constant rain !!

They smell so good in flower. One is over 8 feet high and another is over 4 feet high is big pots !! I'll post a pic of that too. Lol. I have my work cut out.

Al. You have nothing to opologize for at least to me. Your ability to hold your posture all the while teaching us how important is is to understand how container growing works In the face of adversity is always appreciated !

Mike

Monica...As promised..I thought I would post a few pics for you to show how well my Hoya is doing in an amended version of the gritty mix, one of my Jades in the original gritty mix, my Olive tree in a huge container in the gritty mix and my Lemon Tree in a HUGE pot in the 5.1.1 mix_)

Please excuse the mess in part of my yard..Been cleaning up since the killing frost and setting up my greenhouse with a pool cover and heat...

Just a side note::: It has been mentioned over and over again about how Al's set up with lights and warmth and that the mixes are only good for Bonsai..Well, I have hardly any sunlight, no lamps, huge pots, and my plants are subjected to cooler temps requiring an even greater urgency to grow them in these same 1.1.1 and 5.1.1 mixes..Why would someone use something like the gritty mix if they knew that is would require even more frequent watering with heat and light unless they knew how beneficial it was? There is something to be had in that...Just a thought?

Olive tree in a huge 10 gallon pot in the gritty mix

My Lemon Meyer tree in a huge big but pot in the 5.1.1 mix with planted Yellow Christmas cactus planted inside to..I just hauled them in for the winter(

My Michelia Alba tree which NEEDS a very porous mix to survive outside the tropics up here..A salt sensitive and water and cold sensitive tree It's in the gritty mix so I can keep it cold and damp with no issues,...This is a big tree and the flowers would knock your feet off)

My Jade that MUST be grown in the gritty mix, I use the original and and I can keep them outside even on days and days of wet... They are still outside because the mix dries out fast enough to allow them to endure very cold nights which turns this one colors! I keep it by the pond, a plant that you find in desert regions not in the country though..

A couple dozens of Fig trees I must plant in the 5.1.1 mix so they can stay outside in very cold weather and drain well without rotting

And , last but not least, the plants you started this thread with for your reward)) They are all planted in a an amended version of the 1.1.1 mix and thrive in it..I don't have to water every day as suggested even in these tiny pots...A two year old cutting LOADED with flowers and blooms...This one is a pride and joy and I thank the concepts about the mixes here for what has become)

Oh yes, I even grow Orchids in the gritty mix..Here is my Oncidium in full bloom smelling like a Sweet Chocolate factory! All these pics I just took today..

Mike, awesome plants and your yard looks wonderful. My olive has very small leaves compared to yours. I wonder what variety I have. Someone gave a seedling to me years ago with no tag.That Jade is beautiful. What variety? I will try to get one in spring. My tallest plant used to be a Mango started from seed. About 6 feet. This year I planted my Moringa in 511 mix in a 5 gallon container. From a pencil size stem it went to over 2 inches in diameter and over 8 feet tall in one growing season.

I read this long and interesting thread. I just wanted to say that Science is everywhere whether you like it or not. It provides the necessary structure to the process of designing and creating something and making it better as our understanding improves. Knowledge is useless unless it can be used to teach someone else and provide that 'Aha' moment. Al is a master at using his immense knowledge and provide a complete noob with that 'Aha' moment - in fact many of those moments. Imagine how satisfying that must be.

OK, I said it. Now let us all get back to growing. For me it is more like desperately trying to get my porch ready for the plants before the next cold wave hits.

Tropic...Thank you for your kind comments! I see you are having fun with plants too..You have learned much like I have..You know here is what I am grateful for most...

Even though I too can grow many things in the same bagged mixes or concoctions some have suggested here, and I have, all they did was hang on and the leaves were always flawed for some reason, yellowing, brown tip, less green, not bright and etc..

I didn't think I could do better until I came here, I thought they were just fine...Now that I grow in these porous mixes and understand the concept, I can plants in which their leaves are flawless, growth is more robust, less pest issues, and so on...For instance, most people I know of at the Fragrant Forum grow these Olive Trees for fragrance, yet most have brown tip issues..Not me.

Many Hoya growers I help complain that their Hoya rot when wet and cool, that their variegated proteins get brown and die back, that they loose branches and that their cuttings, especially specialties take for ever to bloom..Not mine.

Most people at the Houseplant forums have issue with many plants like their Peace Lilies tips turning brown because of salts and yes, that's me..I have had mine planted in the heavier mixes that stay wet longer..lol Here is a pic to rove it..Not being satisfied, I re potted into the 5.1.1 mix just a month ago and now al the new growth is coming in flawless..!

If one wants TRUE vivd color in their plants, they must grow in what's best for their plants, it's that easy...

Here is an example of colors without brown, many of which are very hard to keep this way growing in mixes that hold salt and stay wet for too many days..

A Hoya with Pinks and whits, no browning...

Philodendrons hard to keep without growing on light colored leaves..

Orange trees with very dark green leaves, almost impossible with mixes that stay wet too long and that hold salts deposits..

Now here is a Peace Lilly I have been growing in a much more peaty soil mix..See how the leaves were turning brown....I got tired of it so I switched to the 5.1.1 mix just last months and now the leaves are growing a flawless green..

Before the 5.1.1 mix.

And in the 5.1.1 mix

Monica,

As Al said, you were the unfortunate victim... and this is not the first time (and I suspect, not the last) that you will see this same, exact topic of discord within this and other forums.

It makes me, as a fellow grower, so very happy to know that you managed to find the information you needed, and so much more... within this long and drawn out thread. And I apologize for my part in any of the discord... but as you read, I'm sure, this is not the first encounter I've had with the member in question.

Don't feel bad, please... at one time, I was new at this... and until I found Al's offered concepts, I struggled mightily trying to grow my favorite plants, Amaryllis bulbs, in sub-standard soil using sub-standard methods because I believed in the gardening industry and what they were selling, and I took the advice of others at face value without asking any questions... without knowing how those methods worked or why.

You'll find that most of the people who advocate against Al's concepts, or argue against them, have never even tried to utilize them, themselves. Or, if they have, and they've had problems, they have never come back to ask for help. They have simply assumed that it was the medium, and never considered it might be "operator error". As we all have said, there is a slight adjustment period when you change mediums from a fine particulate to a larger, more porous particulate. But any of us who have used the concepts Al suggests would be more than happy to help.

Welcome to the Forum, Monica... stick around and you'll meet a lot of wonderful, and very helpful people! :-)

Jodik - thank you for the kind words, help and support. I really appreciate it. :-)

Mike - those photos are jaw dropping! Thank you so much. I'm sure it took a lot of time taking the photos and posting them. It truly shows your love for gardening.

I love that jade plant. I've never seen one that changed color. I'm also very envious of your Hoyas. Maybe in the spring I will change some to the 1-1-1 and see if I notice a difference.

i also love your greenhouse. That could be a great project to add to my "honey do" list.

Very impressive indeed!

My pleasure, Monica. :-)

Mike grows some phenomenal plants, doesn't he? His orchids are to die for, and every photo he's ever posted, or sent to me email to check out has been beautiful, healthy, usually with abundant blooms! I can't even imagine how good it all smells, as scented plants are some of his favorites, I know!

Al is another one with gorgeous plants, and Laura has a collection of Plumerias that are so lovely... Josh grows fabulous trees and other potted items... I don't want to leave out anyone, but I couldn't possibly name everyone here who has wonderful potted collections, or grows great gardens!

I just finished cutting back and putting all my Amaryllis bulbs to sleep for the winter months this past weekend... one of the only ways I have to take care of them at the moment, as most are sequestered up north at my son's house. I've got a great stash spot for them in his basement, where it's cool and dark. In early spring, I'll bring them all back out to his deck, water and feed them, and they'll begin doing what they do best... growing and blooming! I also keep my Plumeria there, and a hanging basket of Epiphyllum that blooms in white.

I used to grow all of my Amaryllis bulbs year round, more as they would naturally... allowing them to grow and bloom, or to rest at their own pace. Most would bloom either in spring or early summer, with a few stragglers a little later... but we're in the process of whittling down our material belongings in anticipation of moving in with our son and his family. We're actually estate caretakers for an older couple, (close friends of ours), who have a farm, but we're getting too old and have too many health issues to keep it up for much longer. It's rather physically demanding work, but we are able to set our own schedule, which is nice.

The rest of my container collection consists of under 20 other types of plants in smaller pots that reside with me... I take them back and forth, from the farm where we live during winter, to my son's where I spend spring and summer with our grandkids. while my husband stays here and caretakes. I've greatly reduced the amount of plant material I have... between age, lupus, and spinal problems, it's getting to be too much to care for a giant house full of plants, along with everything else!

I've got a little Dendrobium, an Ansellia, a Hoya, a Ledebouria, white and pink Zephyranthes, a pot of Sprekelia, a pot of Chalice Vine cuttings, a Pregnant Onion, a small pot of Sansevieria , and a Pony Tail Palm. I think that's about it. Oh, I do have a night blooming Cereus that's rather small, too. I also have a Gloriosa corm or two that I've been working with.

At one time, I had over 400 different varieties of Hippeastrum, including Hybrids and Species... plus many related bulbs, such as Nerine, Scadoxus, Hymenocallis, etc... plus a huge collection of other houseplants... plus a ton of containerized or hanging basket-ed annuals out in the yard every season... but it got to be too much. I narrowed my collection down to about 50 of my favorite Amaryllis. I keep those, and my little collection of other plants... and we put more of our energy into growing an organic vegetable garden every year... eating organically and as natural as I can helps my lupus a lot... I can actually feel the difference.

Every single plant I have in a container is growing in an adjusted rendition of the Gritty Mix or the 511... and everything simply loves it that way. All I do is adjust ratios of ingredients according to what type of plant it is, its growing habits, the size of the pot, and where I'll be growing it - basically inside or out determines what I'll use.

Unfortunately, I haven't taken any photos of my plants in quite a while... I need a new camera. I accidentally dropped mine on the concrete in front of our garage a couple of years ago, and now the gear that drives the lens is so shot it no longer works. It would cost more to fix it than to buy a new camera, so hopefully I can save enough to get a new one fairly soon. And I don't have a "smart phone"... I'm still operating with an old flip phone that takes such crummy pictures it's not even worth the effort.

But enough about my plants...

Just by everyone's pictures, you can see that there's nothing negative about growing in a more porous medium. And the added experiences in anecdote form sort of seal the deal... it's worth the effort if you grow to achieve optimal success. I'd never go back to growing in a bagged, peat or coir based, retail sold soil.

It took me a bit of time and patience to locate the ingredients I needed when I first switched over to the more porous mediums, but that, too, was worth it. Gardening is all about having patience... and to me, it's not about what's convenient... it's about what's best for my plants and their health.

Happy Gardening! :-)

PS - I'll see if I can locate a few of the most recent photos I might have of my plants.

Jodik....Thank you for sharing!

I will say this with the most heartfelt truth...

For me, there is MUCH LESS WORRYING when it comes to using the 5.1.1., 1.1.1, amended versions there of... I never have to fear about too much rain or cold, or both at once, and the salts that wreak havoc on the looks of my plants and health..It's nice to be able to fertilize all I want and not have to deal with bugs...

I remember years back seeing how much better a Jade I gave Al looked in compared to mine.I was jealous.....It was so clean, leaves perfected, color vivid, and in perfect shape, and I wanted that..The leaves to mine were flawed, brown marks,contorted and so on.I wanted what he had, and he was kind enough to help me to get there...Since then I will never go back to the mixes I use to use, ever...Sadly, I think a storm knocked it over and devastated it(

If the only thing I have to worry about is 'watering' more frequently at certain times, while all my other 'dozens' of worries are left behind, then it's far worth it!

Monica, I am so glad you enjoyed them..Like I said, if there is ever a plant you would like a cutting of, just let me know..I really think you have gotten the concept of what's best for your plants and I wouldn't mind sharing any one mine that will fall into good hands...))

Interesting.

Now I notice there is an amended version of 5.1.1. Is that something new that Al introduced? Hadn't seen diagrams or explanations of that. 1.1.1.?

Isn't that what I've been offering growers as an alternative to 'gritty.'

I like the alternative version which is what I've been trying to offer people. Works well indoors with dry, winter air. Holds some moisture and keeps roots from drying out if you can't water 2x a day. It is what I have used for over 10 years. Works well indoors and out.

So, where is the argument? Why was everyone so upset about my posting how I grow?

Jane

Jane,

Do you want to limit her Monica's and others ability to prevent the issues she was worried about from happening by offering no better solution? Truth is, there is a better way. I don't have any of those issues like you admitted you have .

You should of stopped here with this phrase and move on..You get it. I think you do? .You cant be that.....welll

"I can assure you plants can get all sorts of disease no matter how well the potting medium drains. Heat, dampness and lack of air movement can grow mold on rocks, bark and trees. My orchids are planted in rock and empty baskets with no medium. Some are fighting multiple fungal problems and insects.

I run fans on some that are close to the house to keep the air moving. But I can't do that on the plants in trees and in large containers in the yard.

You do the best you can do until the weather changes. Can't fight Mother Nature!'

If I had come to you for advice for growing Orchids, and by the way you have some very nice ones, goodness especially that Angrecium , which I don't think you will even see that I told you.Would'nt you defend your good advice and point out bad advice given to me , at least I would hope so? Put yourself in someones else's shoes for a change. . If your integrity and character came into play, you'd defend yourself just like you have been doing so here.

By the way, I am friends with many that grow just like you, some that agree with your philosophy, even those that don't agree with Tapla's methods, and they disagree with the 'way' you are posting and handling yourself here

Jane - there were 24 posts on this thread since your last - most were MUCH lighter o/a and addressing Monica. The interlude would have been an absolutely perfect opportunity to 'just drop it' and move along like you said you intended to do so many times already. It's unfortunate you couldn't resist stirring the pot again once you had it boiling.

I'm somewhat conflicted about your comportment, btw. On one hand, it's as annoying as can be, but on the other hand, it reveals your true stripes and totally destroys any semblance of credibility you might have had; which, based on the way you behave and what you post is proving to be a positive for the forum.

Let's see ....... Works well indoors with dry, winter air. Does the gritty and 5:1:1 mix do that exceptionally well? Check. Holds some moisture and keeps roots from drying out Does the gritty and 5:1:1 mix do that exceptionally well? Check. if you can't water 2x a day. Is this insinuation about the gritty and 5:1:1 mixes a gross distortion of reality? Check Works well indoors and out Does the gritty and 5:1:1 do that exceptionally well? Check. So, to borrow your question - "Where's the argument"; and more to the point - WHAT's your point ....... and where's the logical conclusion? And BTW - we're too smart to fall for the wounded bird routine in "Why was everyone so upset about my posting how I grow?" There isn't a single person here that's upset about your posting how you grow (and you know it). It's because of the distortion of fact/truth/reason you use in attempt to make a case, and all the vindictiveness incorporated in the aftermath. Every post is full of bile.

Start your own thread with your questions/comments about the 5:1:1 or gritty mixes, include discussion about what makes your suggestion a viable alternative and why your method is superior in any way to methods that have already been discussed for >10 years, and I'll talk with you about it; otherwise, you can talk to the hand.

Al

Why Jane must keep insisting that a more porous medium, like the Gritty Mix, HAS TO be watered twice daily is a mystery to me. And often, her posts suggest that even twice daily isn't enough. That's called repetitively giving false information.

The beauty of using a more porous medium is that it doesn't matter if you over-water, or if your containerized plant gets more rain dumped on it than you expected or wanted... it won't hold that PWT which finer, peatier soils are famous for.

From what I've learned, and in my own experience, plants shouldn't be watered on an exact schedule... like "I water every other Tuesday whether it needs it or not" type of schedule... but rather as they require moisture. Different variables will cause them to utilize moisture at different rates. That, too, is basic science.

Therefore, I usually use the wooden skewer method for testing moisture values if I'm not sure, keeping in mind that moisture can also be present in vapor form.

Once a grower gets to know about how often individual plants will need watering, or about how heavy a particular pot should be when watered... when fully saturated... knowing when to add more water is easier.

But Jane's comments always make it sound as though growing in the Gritty Mix is like placing a plant in the desert with no hope of finding a drink. And that couldn't be further from the truth... that's what we call a lie.

What Jane offers is no explanation of how her methodology works, or why it works... she never offers us a concept with legs cemented in real science, so people actually understand what's happening under the soil she uses at the root zone, and how moisture and other variables play into it.

If she would actually do us the honor of explaining how and why her methods work, perhaps we'd be more likely to take her seriously, thus adding some credibility to herself instead of detracting further from it.

I'm at the same point Al is at... talk to the hand. Unless an explanation of methodology is forthcoming, I've nothing further to say to Jane.

I will say, though, that the repetition within her posts does cause a chain reaction of freely given and advantageous information of the truthful and useful kind to be posted by other members.

And now... back to organic apple jelly making... and then, home made cheesecake that puts Eli and Sarah Lee to shame... with a dinner of home made Reuben sandwiches, the likes of which you can't get anywhere but out of the kitchen my husband cooks in! :-)

Yes, I am bragging about his kitchen skills. His food is that good! It's why I'm bantamweight, and not the flyweight I should be for my height! :-)

Happy Eating... I mean Growing! ;-)

I'm ignoring Jodik completely,

So, what is this 1.1.1?

What is the amended mix which no one has even described on the Container Forum??? Shouldn't that option be available to people who drop in from searches?

People Google when they want advice on repotting or problems with container plants. They get hit with 'Gritty Mix.' I know and hear from many people that they move on from 'Container Forum' quickly because they are not going to try to buy turface, granite and do pH tests, lime, etc. They are condo, apartment growers. Some have tons of houseplants. No way to drain large containers in their homes.They are looking for help. Gritty does not help them.

These searches send them to other sites. Unfortunately, other sites do not give the information they need to have. I would like Mike, Jodik, Monica, gardengal. etc. to share what they really do. How they deal with the repotting, the time constraints and the lack of moisture gritty presents?

I am trying to address those who choose not to use 'gritty mix.' There are options and those of us should be allowed to post.

Now, I see there is an 'amended gritty mix.' Shouldn't that be shared on this forum?? I'd love people to really know what potting mix you are using? How come there are no posts about the 'Amended Gritty Mix.' Seems it holds some potting soil which is what I have been offering.

Mike, I'm really shocked at your post as you have been supportive and a friend in the past. as I have been to you. You are a good grower and I've always been impressed by what you grow. I can't even respond to your post.

5.1.1.?

Most advice, that I can see is gritty mix. I think gritty is great for bonsai. Not so much for houseplants and large containers. I also, disagree with 5.1.1.

Too much bark.

I like a mix of bark, perlite and potting soil. Years of growing experience. Thats my proof...That's it!

After seeing Mikes photos, I realize he is also using potting mix. That's great. That's what I recommend. Beautiful plants, healthy plants. That's how mine looks.

Al grows bonsai. That's great also. But doesn't really deal with the people growing in windows during winter with houseplants. Time constraints, financial and watering. Real life.

Mike, I find it hard that you wrote that post. Unless you are a different 'Mike' it doesn't sound like you at all.

I don't need minions to support me. Not necessary. I don't need to prove how I grow.

Yesterday and today I have received so many emails from Houzz emails that I didn't have time to read them all. I just did. It is amazing how many people are sick of the 'Tapla' support which which dominates this forum. Some of these people go back years. Many are people who posted questions just a few weeks ago and left.

One person stated that they asked a question about their plant and got all these links to pages and pages of Taplas old discussions and diagrams. Marbles, perched water, triangles. She said, 'who has time for this' and she found it scary. She saw my posts, as did 6 other people who emailed me through Houzz.

I'm just saying this because this site could be much more active if we had all sorts of different growing styles. Might not be 'scientific' but that is meaningless depending on environment and the growing conditions and the time a grower has. All science can adjust to various lifestyles and environments. I was sooo surprised at the support I got.

Growing is a learning process which involves so many factors. Not just potting soil.

Now, I am truly out of here. No more email notifications to my inbox. You guys can all pat yourselves on the back about how great you are. How great Al is!

No one is reading any of this except the people who have some 'other agenda.'

I can't even read these long posts from the same three people, over and over. Maybe its Al posting in your names. It sounds very strange and no one is reading any of it.

Where do you have the time or energy to keep repeating the same stuff over and over??

Keep it up. Keeps the number count on the thread. Just like the Prolly Thread does. Same few people. Looks good on paper. Meaningless, because it doesn't attract new people. No reads it.

So, 'Prolly' you should let these endless threads die away. Update the information with real life things.

Would be the best for this forum.

Jane

Jane

Why don't you finally get it: it's not so much 'defending' Al...it is about the way you post. It started with Al (you don't need to agree with anybody, just don't attack them personally), then you progressed to call names other ppl just because they felt that you are being unfair in attacking him. And now your comments to Mike: yes, I think he actually is a real friend - real friend will tell you truth to your face. He doesn't agree with some of what you said and told you so - doesn't mean he isn't a friend. He would be hypocrite otherwise.

Just about every sentence you post is full of nasty remarks. Same, over and over again. It's really about time to drop it - ppl were moving in different direction, but you had to get few more 'digs' in again...This is what you just said: Where do you have the time or energy to keep repeating the same stuff over and over?? Maybe you should apply it to yourself.

Rina

Jane

First off what a beautiful yard. So pretty

I'm dissapointed

You are hurtful to many I respect here though and I don't like it. Your good intentions are masked by your inuendoes, insults, crude remarks and disrespect and I would tell that to anyone I consider a friend or foe .

I happen to know and care deeply for one that you consider a friend, in fact I gave her your address trying to get a hold of you. But she/they are nothing but kind hearted here with good intentions, even if we should agree or disagree with our growing methods! They respect my friends and others in general

If you can't find time to start your own thread , then how did you find all the time to keep sabotaging this one after all those peaceful and Beaitiful posts? ?????

Just know that even if you should start your own thread , that if we're to despense bad advice , there will always be someone here looking out for those who want accurate information and in defense of plant science

Mike

Jane. I ask you again. Please start your own thread about the media you use, and its advantages. People can then join in and we can all learn from that. Isn't that the right way to go about it, when you want to provide a better alternative ?

You might even put the gritty and 5.1.1 mixes to shame...

Jane, I suspected that there are certain hardships that you have to mitigate. I appreciate your candour. But we all ( and I am pretty sure of that) have to deal with serious issues in our daily lives. These forums probably help a lot of us to indulge in a diversion so that the real life seems a little more sane. At least that is how I deal with it. I suspect that a lot of others do as well.

Granted that obsessing over the perfect mix may seem trivial compared to real life problems and issues. But to me at least, perfecting that ideal conditions for plants seems to be something I can do without upsetting real life too much. Some have more leeway in achieving that and some others do not. But at the least we should know what we gave up to achieve that perceived convenience of life.

Absorbing the wisdom of older folks with considerable knowledge of practice of a profession or task is something I take seriously. But having the humility to accept that someone younger than me who may have a better answer to a problem is more important to me. After all progress can only be sustained if we allow younger agile minds to upset the status quo.

Jodik - wow, you have a full day! I was getting tired just reading about how full your days are. Your apple jelly sounds delicious.

Mike - is the photo of your Hoya a variagated obovata? It's beautiful. I just bought a plain obovata at Lowes. It's an EA Hoya and I tried to changed out most of the soil but I was breaking some leaves and roots in the process but the soil was so saturated it had that yucky wet dirt smell. If you could spare a cutting I would love to take you up on your offer!

Tropicofcancer - your post was spot on. I've become passionate about container gardening as a means of a little escape and joy for me aside from taking care of my 12 year old son with severe ADHD and sensory issues. Some days are really tough especially when my husband travels for work. He was gone almost this whole week. I've found my therapy (lol) and made friends all thanks to the love of plants we all share.

thanks for making me feel so welcomed and all the great advice from everyone.

We Want You to feel welcome, Monica!!! ❤️

Like Tropic said so well... We all have our reasons to be here to relax and learn. We all have lives that take a lot out of us and everyone has their own stories of health issues. We are real people. This forum gives us a chance to find some peace and we learn how to nurture our trees so they can give back to us. This is therapy for me when I work long days around all sorts of people needing things all day.. Let's just say that flying in the skies " isn't to friendly at times". Lol.. But , I still love it!! I come here to let down... Not to get all stressed, so I will offer advice and I'll help others as well..

I'm glad you feel good about your trees and mixes I'll help you in any way I can!!

take care,

laura

Monica, I know where you're coming from... my husband is severely ADD, and we raised two children - one with severe ADD, one with bi-polar issues mixed in - which was diagnosed much later.

We didn't want to keep them on medications, which when used turned them into little zombies who stared at the television and had a poorer quality of life, we could see... not to mention all the side effects from certain drugs... so we dealt with it in other fashions.

We channeled their energy, and taught them to focus and control themselves through various activities, like the use of martial arts and other things... and when they really bounced off the walls, we gave them a cup of coffee with a little sugar, or a Mt. Dew, or a candy bar as a quick fix.

That was many, many years ago... decades ago. They're grown and have families of their own, If we'd known then what we now know, we'd have changed a few things... we still would have avoided any medications, though.

Most of my husband's life, he controlled his own ADD through martial arts, and copious amounts of coffee with a ton of sugar. As he reached middle age, our doctor suggested getting rid of his sugar consumption because of cholesterol and other issues. At that point, he said "what the hell... I guess I'm old enough where taking Ritalin won't matter that much"... but we're into the organic and natural way of living, so it wasn't really what he wanted. But it worked for a little while.

Then, something a little odd happened... he was reading a book about how iodine plays such an important role in our health, from cellular growth, regeneration, and health - to thyroid health and a plethora of other important functions, and how Americans aren't getting enough in our diets because of our highly processed and compromised overall commercial food source, etc... and he began to use iodine, just the 2% tincture liquid available at any drug store, and he would paint a half dollar sized circle on his skin every day... wherever... it doesn't really matter... arm, stomach, leg, wherever. The stain left should absorb into the body through the skin. It does. And it should take a specified amount of time for the stain to be absorbed... I forget if it's 12 hours or 24... anyway, if it takes less time, it means you're deficient in iodine. We both use it.

In the meantime, he ran out of Ritalin, and we neglected to get the prescription renewed due to scheduling conflicts or something... I can't really remember. I think it had to do with the fact that Ritalin is highly controlled and the paper prescription must be hand carried and renewed every month. What I do recall quite clearly, though, was that we both noticed that his ADD was completely under control... without any medication, without sugar, without caffeine... and we were amazed! We've looked and looked, but can't find any supporting information online... all we know is that the iodine is the only thing he changed. We didn't simply assume it was the iodine... we went through a process of logical thought and elimination to figure out what had changed. Iodine use was the only thing.

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating anything... I am not a health care professional... however, common medical knowledge tells us that our bodies require iodine along with other vitamins and minerals in a certain balance in order to function properly. And we also know that our overall food source today is highly processed, loaded with chemicals, dyes, and other impurities. In a word, it's compromised. It's unhealthy.

So... make of it what you will... just my little anecdote regarding what is a similar issue... if you're at all interested in reading a little, Monica, the book my husband read is called "The Iodine Crisis". It's highly interesting and educational.

And I'm really glad you found a place where you can come and relax, and relate to other growers, and make friends... like we all did! We're happy to have you as part of our group! :-)

Sorry to be so long winded... I have a little extra time today.

~

Tropicofcancer is more on the money than they realize... we DO each have our hardships and issues to contend with...

For myself, those include Lupus, spinal and neck injuries from an accident that can't be repaired, some memory loss from a head injury due to that same accident - mostly short term... I live 24 hours of every day in chronic, high level pain, and experience symptoms no one would volunteer to have. Gardening and working with plants, and interacting on these forums are my way of helping to forget some of the issues I face for a little while. And I'm not giving this information about myself to gain pity... I don't need or want it. I suspect none of us with issues do. I like to remain positive, and fill my time with things I enjoy... it's an example of why an individual might be here, or might post often.

I also enjoy reading, writing, jewelry making, and other crafts.

In my travels throughout the many forums, here... I have discovered that there are a lot of people who have either physical or other health disabilities, or other issues that allow them the time to be here, to read and post... to help other growers who are looking for answers and a better growing experience.

There are also a lot of younger people, perhaps new to growing plants who are looking for information. It's really a mixed bag of people... but the point is, we all have different reasons for being here. One can't judge a person on how much time they spend here... not without walking that mile in that person's moccasins.

And, Mike... what can I say about Mike, except that he's one of the sweetest, nicest, most forgiving people I've ever known. I consider him family. He goes above and beyond giving people chances, no matter what they do or how poorly they treat him. I can tell you this... he's a lot more forgiving. and has a lot longer fuse than I do.

"Fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice, shame on me."

~

"I'm ignoring Jodik completely,"

What a windfall... manna from heaven, if you believe in that sort of thing.

But we all know the reality of that, considering message boards and forums web-wide and the predictable personality types that inhabit them all.

It doesn't mean I won't continue to correct misinformation and fairy tales where I see them, if I'm around to see them.

But, wait! What's this about 2 short paragraphs later?

"I would like Mike, Jodik, Monica, gardengal. etc. to share what they really do. How they deal with the repotting, the time constraints and the lack of moisture gritty presents?"

I'm a little confused... are you ignoring me? Or not? Which is it?

Well, it doesn't really matter, because within your contradiction I see more invalid information that require correcting.

What do you mean "how do we deal with the re-potting"?

As has been explained numerous times, one would rinse off the old medium, do any root pruning required at that time, and place the plant in its new home within fresh medium. However, I have found that I do not have to re-pot as often when using my own rendition of the Gritty Mix as it holds its structure longer than any bagged, peat based soil I've ever used. Unless a plant gets too big for its home, I usually re-pot my bulbs about every 2-3 years.

What "time constraints" would you be talking about?

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.

What "lack of moisture" are you talking about?

If you've prepared your Gritty Mix properly, and you're aware of and keeping abreast of your individual climate and environment, and you know the limitations of your individual micro-environment, or growing space, there may not be a need to water for days on end. There are variables involved that you are obviously not taking into consideration.

You simply cannot take a statement and apply it as a blanket, covering everyone and everything. That never works.

Every single person will have a different or slightly different experience using the same medium due to variables too numerous to mention. In case you hadn't noticed, the world is just a wee bit larger than your own backyard.

We tend to term it "an adjustment period", learning to utilize a more porous medium that's healthier for root systems. And it's not rocket science, and doesn't require any genius.

And to correct several of your other erroneous gaffes and misconceptions, I grow plants both large and small, in containers both large and small, INSIDE, in my tiny, little attic apartment. (Some travel north with me, and some remain behind, as I've already mentioned.) They make these wonderful things called saucers that I usually keep placed under each container.

And for the larger containers, I use deeper saucers and place them on these nifty little inventions that have tiny casters so they roll over to my kitchen or bathroom areas if I feel draining water will be a concern. That way, I can place my larger containers in the shower stall - or tub, if that's what one has - to allow for excess drainage.

I have also utilized these things I call "critical thought and problem solving skills" in figuring out how to make watering and draining off any excess water easier and less of a potential disaster. I keep a turkey baster and a small bucket handy to suck the excess water out of saucers if I can see that water might overflow.

But that's not the only idea there is... there are numerous ways to skin a cat, it is said.

Most of my pots can just be walked over to my kitchen sink and watered right there. Voila'! No mess.

~

Quite honestly, Jane, your entire post is nothing but a repeat of the inaccurate, fallacious information we continually correct! You are running in circles... nothing more!

Example #1 - Al grows WAY more than just bonsai.

Example #2 - Where is your explanation of how and why your "alternative" methods work?

Example #3 - Porous mediums are great for way more than JUST bonsai!

Example #4 - "Amended" can mean a plethora of things. It can mean a change in ingredient ratios, a change in exact ingredients, etc... be more specific if you want answers.

Example #5 - "Years of growing experience" is NOT an answer to "how" or "why" a concept works. At best, it's a personal opinion.

I could list more and more examples, but what's the point? One end of the conversation is circular and spurious, and there seems to be no end to it.

~

I surely hope most everyone has a good day growing and learning... it looks like rain here, so I better go button up things outside... where I also grow a few potted items. ;-)

Thank you for the understanding and support. It is a struggle everyday. We chose to medicate our son as his biggest issue his hyper activity. Without meds we would never get out of the house. We also have him in a private school that specializes in ADHD. It's expensive but so worth it.

My way of coping with it all is container gardening. I don't like gardening in the yard because I can't deal with the heat and the bugs, lol. In the past I refinished some pieces of furniture which I may get into again during the winter.

I really enjoy reading these threads and I'm so happy to have found the website. :-)

Have a great day.

I'm really glad you found a method that works well for your son, Monica. Every parent has to do what they feel is best for their own child, or children... and each child is an individual, so the same method that works for one child may not be the right way to go for another. :-)

We live more of a natural, organic lifestyle, so in our case, we wanted to avoid medications if we possibly could. Fortunately, we were able to. My husband did a lot of research on what was available back in that time frame, when our kids were very young, and he was not happy with what medical science had to offer. Things have changed since, of course.

So, coincidentally... my Mom used to enjoy refinishing furniture, too. She was quite good at finding bargains and turning the pieces into beautiful tables, chairs, dressers, or whatever the item was. She even did her own upholstery... getting more life out of a sofa than anyone I ever met! :-)

I have wonderful memories of her, bolts of material spread out on the living room floor, cutting pieces for quilts or drapery... whatever she happened to be working on... she was a great seamstress, too. She used to make really cute matching outfits for her, myself, and my Barbie doll, I'm almost embarrassed to say. :-)

Can you imagine, I inherited her sewing machine, but only my husband knows how to use it!? His Grandma taught him everything... how to crochet, knit, quilt, sew, put up foods, you name it! He's even a better cook than I am! In fact, today he's finishing up processing organic apples from our tree, plus organic rose hips from our roses, into apple/rose hip jelly! I can't wait to eat some... it's so good!

For me, growing potted plants is relaxing, takes my mind off some of the things I deal with, and I think it makes a house feel more "homey" to have living green plants in it! We also have a dog... a little Olde Bulldogge named Rosie. It just wouldn't feel like "home" without her... we've always had at least one dog. :-)

Outside, it's not so much the bugs that bother me... but the sun makes me break out in an instant rash... one of the joys of having lupus. We do a vegetable garden every year, so I have wear long sleeves, a sun hat, etc... it gets a little warm, but the rash is much worse. Plus, we're in IL, where it's not so bad most of the time, regarding hot weather.

Winters are not my favorite, but what can you do? I do like the snow at Christmas time... and I guess I can deal with cold, since my husband likes winter so much. :-)

Well... back to the salt mines... glad to have you join us! Have a great evening!

What a nasty group of people. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

My advice works and is helpful. I will continue to advise people what mix, in my opinion works best for large container plants grown indoors. It actually works well for smaller plants. I've used it for over 15 years, I've played with it and found a very good mix. I'm an orchid grower and know bark very well.

This forum is for everyone. Everyone has the right to share their experiences. There are many people who cannot deal with this type of treatment when they offer how they grow. That is terrible and hurts this forum.

Please, do not count the amount of posts. Count the amount of new people who post and return. That is what counts. The high post count has to do with the same group of people having a chat group here. They just keep posting and posting. Very little new 'blood.'

People can agree and disagree in a polite way. I have no problem defending my growing methods and offering it to others who do not want to deal with gritty mix or 5.1.1..

Why is that so threatening? If you folks were secure about your growing methods, you would not have to keep repeating yourselves. You would not have to keep responding to me.

This is a public forum. Nothing I suggest is dangerous. Nothing anyone would like to share is dangerous. It is the right for everyone who comes here, to decide what would work best for them. The bullying is so apparent.

It is time for this forum to be open to other ideas.

Jane

As for me Jane...I'll copy and paste my request above, in the hope you'll respond to it....

Jane. I ask you again. Please start your own thread about the media you use, and its advantages. People can then join in and we can all learn from that. Isn't that the right way to go about it, when you want to provide a better alternative ?

You might even put the gritty and 5.1.1 mixes to shame...

Most forums as large as GardenWeb have administrators who actively warn, reprimand and eventually ban people publicly arguing in non productive ways. And oh yes this the topic of "a productive argument" itself gets argued about too, which is usually when banning comes in to play to help preserve the community. Threads as toxic as this one get closed quickly, and often removed. This happens on almost every long term community forum I frequent - except for here. Forums that don't do this rarely continue to exist as long as GardenWeb has.

I am amazed that Houzz allows this thread to continue. At this point no one is right, and anyone who engages is to blame, no matter how diplomatic you are.

Advice is subjective...

My advice? Don't take any wooden nickels.

The fact remains, given the particular topic up for discussion, the same piece of advice doesn't and can't work for everyone in every situation... and without noting that, or explaining why or how a piece of given advice works, nothing of value is being accomplished.

I would concur with Fred... it would be advantageous if Jane began her own thread giving the information repeatedly asked for... and repeatedly ignored.