No, no, and really you're over the wire, weather wise. You might get one shot this year, but you won't get a second chance like you would have had you seeded in early September. Had you written during the summer we would have suggested seeding in early September so you could evaluate the coverage and reseed any thin spots before the frost.

The best thing you can do for new seed is to roll it down with a water fillable roller (rented). The idea is to make good seed-to-soil contact. Straw just complicates the process.

well it is what it is. too many irons in the fire & this was a low priority project. the dirt is spread & the seed is sown. I did get some of the yard weeded & over sown in late august. that grass is up. the clover germinates about as fast as it hits the ground so it has a shot. what about the rye for erosion? it's usually up pretty fast. if I'm too late & nothing comes up I will have to put down a heavy layer of straw to help with erosion & tracking in mud.

Tracking mud? Are you walking over the newly seeded area?

I think the clover will help enough with erosion. Mulch might be a better material than rye or straw if you don't get germination.

I'm not walking on it now but if the grass doesn't doesn't take it will be a mud fest over the winter. what a bout sod this time of year?

Sod should still do OK in St. Louis, but there may be some losses over the winter due to the late planting date (at the very least, the dead grass will reduce the mud issue almost as well as living grass would have). I'd advise getting a sod that includes Kentucky bluegrass, which can fill in any areas that don't survive if well-fed.

I guess the next challenge is finding sod this time of year. this area is the aftermath of a room edition project. my driveway wraps around to the rear of the hose & connects to a new concrete pad to the rear of the room addition. all access to the yard is thru the mud patch.

Worst-case, maybe you could do a path to the door in sod and worry about the rest in spring.

Constantly walked-on areas of newer sod won't do as well, so expect heavy winter losses. Grass really objects to having its roots constantly flexed when under freezing--like any other frozen item, it's much more likely to crack or break.

In spring, I'd consider putting in round concrete path stones, a formal path, or simply accept that you'll need to repair grass on the path every year.

I just got off the phone & sod is available. there 2 farms that are almost adjacent to each other & there's over a $125.00 difference in price. the path to the yard isn't that heavily traveled. it's my redbone hound who'd be tracking the mud.

Doggy damage can still be rather extreme, although I never see any. However, we have two Bichons, who aren't exactly the heaviest, most energetic dogs, nor the type who particularly enjoy being outdoors a lot.

What are the specs on both sod types? The more expensive might use a better grass, or it could simply be more expensive.

the hound doesn't do much damage but does get past the wife before she can wipe his feet when it's muddy. my brother has a desert tortoise that he let's roam in his yard that has worn ruts around the yard's perimeter. he also does not detour around things. he plows thru & over furniture or anything else that's in his way like a bulldozer.

Mid WI is OK to start seed in Mid Oct. so St. Louis shouldn't be an Issue. Cool season grasses will germinate if Soil Contact is good, Moisture is adequate thereafter and Ryegrass should be helpful in hold the soil until complete germination is accomplished. If you have a slope that may erode in case the grass doesn't grab before winter, the straw can help with that.

Once the ground freezes and no more germination is possible, put down a little more seed for a Dormant Seeding to finish the job.

Good luck. :)

Per the above post. How effective is dormant seeding. I did the full fall reseeding 6 weeks ago and overall its great, but a couple areas required touch up. And some of THOSE areas just have the seed sitting on top or in the aeration hole since its a little colder in VA now. Will some of these seeds sit and wait till spring and still come up? Or are those goners?

I'm picking up 2 pallets of sod on Friday. that will cover most of what I need. depending on how my back feels after that i'll either buy another pallet to finish or i'll dormant seed & cover any seeded areas with straw.

Peat moss or compost will be better than straw, and won't feature the copious weed seeds that even cleaned straw tends to. Peat moss is cheaper, lighter, and easier to spread, but doesn't stay put very well in winter winds. Compost is heavier and won't move much, if at all.

Up to a quarter inch of either is fine.

I need to get some peat bales anyway to put around my blueberries & azaleas.I also have access to wood shavings ( not sawdust )from a planer. as I said it depends on how my back feels.

Make sure the wood from the planer is untreated. Treated woods are more likely to kill sprouts than nurture them, but they might be acceptable for compost or topdressing depending on what they were treated with and for what purpose (which will determine the amount of chemical[s] used).

Also make sure the wood shavings stay on top of the soil and don't get mixed into anything. Wood needs access to air to decompose. If you bury it you will regret it for 10 years or so.

We had dogs that formed a path from the back of our deck out to behind the garage. We essentially extended the deck with a curved wooden walk way built onto 4x4s placed on the existing surface. The dogs loved it and preferred walking on it to walking in the grass. That path lasted 15 years and looked great until we remodeled and extended the house back another 20 feet.

is all sod created equal? as I mentioned above the prices I'm getting vary by as much as $200.00 between 3 farms. they are all along the same stretch of river bottom & all 3 are quoting me on fescue. the lowest priced farm is giving me a contractors rate but that's usually not that much of a difference.

also I've been using these shavings for years. they rarely plane treated & if they do they segregate those chips. horse owners use this for bedding so they are careful about what they save. they also segregate walnut shavings as those are bad for hooves. they save those chips for me.

If you've been using wood shavings on the surface for years, your soil biology will have changed such that it is more efficient at decomposing the shavings. I've heard of that before from a wood worker here on Gardenweb. He used sawdust on his "clay" soil as a mulch for years and claimed he could plunge his arm into the soil up to his elbow. He also said it decomposed in a few weeks after having done it for several years. All that is good. Just don't bury the wood.

Sod is different. I'm not sure how you can know which is which, but some might be more weedy than others.

All sod is decidedly not equal, but evaluating it can be difficult...and price isn't necessarily a good guide.

If you look at the cultivars used in the sod, it's usually a better indication of how good the sod is. More modern, better-performing cultivars mean good sod.

Untreated walnut shavings are great for your soil (but, as DCHall noted, don't bury them). There's no type of wood shaving/sawdust I really dislike for soils, although I personally end up using pine myself most of the time.

In fact, fifty or so pounds per thousand square feet applied in June can help mulch your grass against summer dry spells a little bit, and over the years it'll work in and make the soil very rich. Wood decay takes ages, though, unless composted with a nitrogen source.

picked up & laid the sod this morning! so now what?? how wet should I keep it & for how long?

the gal who took the order must have hit some wrong buttons on her calculator. when I gave her the size of the area I wanted to cover she figured 3 pallets. I should have asked her how many square yards per pallet. I ordered 2 pallets. I could only fit 1 1/3 pallets on my truck because I have a large weatherguard tool box. the 1 1/3 pallet was half again more than I needed. they had someone who needed my leftover sod so they're mailing me a refund for 2/3 pallet. I'm glad I didn't order 3.

my neighbor has a tall deck & can see over my fence. after I spread the load of topsoil the other day he asked why I had spread sand. this morning he asked how the grass had grown so fast. I told I found some special fast growing seed that was $200.00 per pound. he asked me where he could buy some............

>>picked & laid the sod this morning! so now what?? how wet should I keep it & for how long?

Damp at the surface for the first two weeks or so (no big issue in late October) until the roots seal down to the soil. Hands off for the first two weeks, though, as you don't want to disturb the root systems that are trying to grow into your soil.

Post that, normally you'd back off slowly, but the date at that point is late enough and the weather is cold enough that you can just go to monitoring it. Don't let it dry out completely this fall. Again, that's not difficult in November.

Feeding once, gently, right now wouldn't be a bad idea using a more cold tolerant organic like Milorganite. A bag rate feed will carry it to the end of the season easily, and still allow you to winterize it (I'd go half rate on new sod) when growth stops completely.

>>I told I found some special fast growing seed that was $200.00 per pound. he asked me where he could buy some............

You're wicked. Come over here and sit by me.

">>I told I found some special fast growing seed that was $200.00 per pound. he asked me where he could buy some............"

I had another neighbor come by last year to tell me one of my bees had stung his daughter. I do not know how even knew that I kept bees as he lives 2 blocks away. for proof he brought a dead bee. I pointed out that # 1 he was holding a yellow jacket not a bee, #2 as far away as he was if it had been a bee there was no way to tell where it had come from, & # 3 all of my bees are wearing little collars. he replied he'd watch for the collars & left. my stepson fell for the $200.00 per pound seed story too.

as far as the sod-I gave it a major soaking just after I installed it. I lifted a corner here & there & verified that that ground underneath was wet. so would 15 minutes twice a day with an oscillating sprinkler do the trick? & what about some corn meal or rabbit feed?

>>I do not know how even knew that I kept bees as he lives 2 blocks away. for proof he brought a dead bee.

I can't even tell you how many wild hives...of three different species of bee...are within 2 blocks of my home. All I can tell you is that the gardens are stuffed with the things all summer.

>># 3 all of my bees are wearing little collars. he replied he'd watch for the collars & left.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

>>as far as the sod-I gave it a major soaking just after I installed it. I lifted a corner here & there & verified that that ground underneath was wet. so would 15 minutes twice a day with an oscillating sprinkler do the trick? & what about some corn meal or rabbit feed?

Sod already has some roots, so once daily to every other day is probably just fine at this point in the season. The goal is really to keep it damp at and below the root zone, not constantly moist like a seed or seeding. Sod is much more forgiving.

If temperatures are still rising into the low sixties, corn or rabbit feed would be fine! The Milo works better colder because it has some fast nitrogen, plus the slow organic N to sustain the feeding over time.

You can also spoon feed sod about 0.25 pounds of N synthetically once a week if you want, it all works out about the same--but those levels of synthetics can be hard to meter correctly.

you could have some feral hives or possibly someone who's keeping bees nearby. honeybees will travel several miles if need be to forage. milorganite sounds like the ticket. mild but effective .i don't want to risk a synthetic N at this stage. it's cooled down here but today has been windy which also can dry things out.

one last thing. can you sod get too wet?? after my initial soak the ground is VERY wet. should I back off the water 24-48 hours with just a light sprinkle on top?

Sod can get too wet! Saturated soils tend to grow roots more poorly (because there's less oxygen and the roots, given all the water, feel no need to grow).

So sure, back off for 1 to 2 days and see how it goes. If the base of the sod is getting dry, water. If not, hold off longer.

broke out the pellet rifle this morning. had a squirrel digging the 1st hole in this sod.

Squirrels and skunks are tough to remove. I've been trying castor oil spray "organic" from Amazon. Seems effective, I'm going to make my own batch. Downside , needs to reapply after rain, watering.

http://www.soaperschoice.com/cgi-soaperschoice/Web_store/web_store.cgi?query_price_low_range=0&cart_id=

If you use a fair clip of castor oil, and it sounds like you do, Soaper's Choice is a pretty inexpensive source of exceptionally high quality oils. I use them for my soap making oils.

Seven pounds of castor oil (quite a large jug) is currently $17.78. Just FYI, castor is mostly ricinoleic and oleic acids, and will keep up to five years in cool to room temperature, dark storage like a cabinet in the kitchen or down in the cellar.

Awesome site, thank you Morpheus. I just got back from SAMs club and struck out there.

You're more likely to find castor oil in drug stores, in the laxative section. It's frequently used as a pediatric laxative since it works fairly gently.

Drug store prices are hideously high, however, as that's refined to pharmaceutical quality. Columbus Foods/Soaper's Choice (the same thing, but SC is a subdivision of CF that they created when so many orders were for soaping oils) refines to food quality (but doesn't guarantee that).

Not that we want to eat it (see laxative, above) but it's of high enough quality to use as a skin moisturizer, acne treatment, or general lubricating oil for home tools.

I live trap skunks & drown them. skunks will tap on the front of bee hives at night & eat the bees when they come out. I have a friend who lost 12 of 20 hives to a trio of skunks over a 3 week period.

my air rifle does a good job on the squirrels.

as previously mentioned I had more sod on the truck than I needed so I just laid it over old grass along the edge of the prepared soil. ground contact could iffy in those areas. I have some #9 ( 3/16" dia. )wire left from a job. would it help if I cut & bent some of this wire into giant staples & pinned down the edges? the prepared soil should be making good contact.

Pin it down on the old grass? It might help, but contact will still be iffy.

If you can scalp mow the old grass as close to the ground as possible, that might help a little bit, too. However, sod is really supposed to be installed on bare ground only as the roots can't jump very well through an air gap.

we had a day of steady rain 2 days ago. the sod all looks pretty good. today I'm going to roll up the sod that's sitting on old grass, weed whack the growth to nubs, scuff the dirt with my tiller, rake it even & set the sod back in place. if I see signs of the sod grabbing hold i'll leave it alone.

""""I live trap skunks & drown them. """"" What?! Everybody just glossed right over this?! How in the sam heck do you do that without getting sprayed with skunk juice? I gotta know...

I'm a skunk whisperer...... Approach the trap slowly carrying a piece of tarp large enough to cover the trap with some extra hanging below when you pick it up. you can then safely pick it & do whatever you care to. if you're going to drown it put it in your container & fill it with water. DO NOT plunge the trap into a full container as there's a 50/50 chance they'll spray if you do. after drowning them I skin them. after skinning I make a shallow incision on both sides of the anus exposing the stink glands. I then remove the stink liquid with a hypodermic needle I store it in a glass bottle or jar. trappers use the scent as a cover scent when setting traps & pay me 16.00 per ounce for it. I know some guys who attend mountain man rendezvouses & those guys will pay between $20.00 & $40.00 for a skunk pelt.

I rolled up the sod that was sitting on old grass. it was moist & showing new root growth!! weed whacked, tilled, & raked the area, put the sod back down. there were still no rollers available to rent. I have a neighbor that weighs in at 575#'s but he'd probably take offense if I asked him to come over & roll around on the sod. and of course now the hound makes it a point to pee on the new sod. here's the sod. ist shot is the east side of my shop. put some rocks by the wall to use for steps s

I rolled up the sod that was sitting on old grass. it was moist & showing new root growth!! weed whacked, tilled, & raked the area, put the sod back down. there were still no rollers available to rent. I have a neighbor that weighs in at 575#'s but he'd probably take offense if I asked him to come over & roll around on the sod. and of course now the hound makes it a point to pee on the new sod. here's the sod. ist shot is the east side of my shop. put some rocks by the wall to use for steps so I do not have to walk on the sod.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k195/rober49/sod%20detour%202.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k195/rober49/sod_1.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k195/rober49/sod%20amp%20room%202_1.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k195/rober49/room%20west%20view.jpg

I'm doing the same thing I've done in the past & cannot get photos to load. I can get them to show in the thread when I edit but when I hit submit the photos disappear. I did some links to work

<a href="http://s88.photobucket.com/user/rober49/media/sod%20detour%202.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k195/rober49/sod%20detour%202.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo sod detour 2.jpg"/></a>

[URL=[http://s88.photobucket.com/user/rober49/media/sod%20detour%202.jpg.html][IMG]http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k195/rober49/sod%20detour%202.jpg[/IMG]/URL]

That looks great!

Since you should be watering on new sod, the hound's pee shouldn't be an issue!

the pee is not a concern, more of an observation. since a lot of critters roam the river bottoms where the sod came from & left their scent it's probably more territorial marking than needing to pee. my concern now though is that a mole has moved into the yard. I have 5 traps set so i'll get him. I've thought about rigging one of these up using the mixing head on my cutting torch for the fun of it.

http://www.rodenator.com/#!videos/leroi

the weather has been holding with mild temperatures & some rain. the sod is looking like it's going to survive. I've been watering regularly & I threw some milorganite & ground milo on it. it's still green with no brown spots. it's been 3 weeks & it looks like i'll have at least one more week mild weather.

What do you mean by watering regularly? Regularly once a week? Regularly twice a day? What is regular?

daily unless it rains.

I would start backing off from that frequency. This time of year I would skip 2 days but watch the grass carefully for signs of wilting.

Do you know how long it takes your sprinklers to apply a full inch? The only way to know is to time how long it takes to fill some cat food or tuna cans. The long term goal is to apply 1 inch on an infrequent basis. The definition of infrequent changes with temperature.

I did back off & the grass lost some of it's color, especially at the edges. I'm putting an oscillator on it for 45 minutes to an hour per day. I just had 2 days of steady rain & the ground is saturated so i'll back for 2-3 days & water every other day until the temp. drops. if it stays mild ( 40's) i'll probably water every 3-4 days. it also appears most of the seed I planted elsewhere has sprouted & is dong well too.

with this crazy weather i'm still watering every 7-10 days if it hasn't rained. the hound has managed to brown up some spots with his pee ( 1/2 acre & of course he pees on the new sod ) but i'm seeing new green growth after soaking those spots. my question here is when might I be able to drive my lawn tractor over it. it's been down since mid October.