Here's how GP wants their product installed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYVDMx14ug0

Thank you Mongo. So are they good products if done correctly?

It's a good product. But the devil is most certainly in the details of the installation.

Personally, I don't use Denshield. I'm not a fan of gypsum board used as the tile backer board in a shower, even with the protection that the waterproof skin provides for the gypsum core that makes up the Denshield panel.

For me the idea that a component that makes up the tile backer board itself needs to be protected from water is a negative.

I know a few guys that use it. The number one reason each one says they use it? It's light weight and easy to carry.

Don't let me scare you off, because I am just one opinion. It can work. Its just not my cup of tea.

For a tub surround maybe.

For a shower , no way !

You'll invariably overdrive the screws, which need to be better than "rust resistant" in a shower, and then have to waterproof those penetrations. You'll have a hard time keeping the appropriate gap above the mortar bed to keep the panels from wicking up the moisture that saturates the bed.

I'm not as kind as Mongo, they"ll work , but they are for the bush leagues. You know the 99 cents a sq. ft we can start tomorrow did you find us on Craigslist or the mssg. board at the big box store ?

No xedos, they are not bush leagues. This is a builder who builds houses that start at 700k and go up into the millions.

Why are they for the bush leagues?

I, too, am a little puzzled by the "bush league" comment. Densshield has a proven reputation for reliability, although, as MongoCT ways, the devil is in the details of installation, and it is important that the mounting screws not penetrate the water shield (or any penetration be completely repaired). But, the product is definitely not "bush league", whatever that means.

Densshield and other water resistant backers are not the current best practice, however, because they do not provide an unbroken moisture barrier like the newer membranes such as Schluter's Kerdi, which we now use almost exclusively.

Densshield has worked well for years, however, and I can't imagine that it has suddenly stopped working. If this is the product with which your builder is most comfortable, I wouldn't have much concern about its suitability.

SCB - I'm guessing you're in your thirties. If not you should know what bush league is. But, you should just google it for the 411.

The problem is not the product itself , it's just that you can't reasonably expect the semi skilled labor that will install it to use the proper fasteners (and I don't agree with their "resistant" rec) and not overdrive them and puncture the coating. Then there is the transition at the receptor / mud bed pan. How many tile guys do you think come in an preslope before installing the drain , then flood test , then set the mud bed ALL before the drywaller sling up that d-shield. -OR- how many cut away the d-shield or remove it enough to put in the chloraloy behind the board and then deck mud to precisely the right level under it , but not too much ???

Then, Red Guard is not approved for use with Dens, and how is that joint between the dens and the pan / receptor to be detailed to remain waterproof. Like exactly how ??? Red guard doesn't span very much space and just how tight do you think the hanger got the joint to the bed without it touching so it doesnt wick up all the water that's gonna saturate that bed when the weep holes on your drain clog or shower water migrates the change of plane cuase the tile setter that uses this stuff didn't uses silicon at the change of plane instead of grout per TCNA standards - nor did he apply the redguard thick enough because he's cheap or lazy and doesn't know what a wet film gauge is or bother to use it while rolling on said redguard ?

So we have a builder / tile guy using two different products that are not recommended together nor are they approved together by the trade governors and you think this represents high craftsmanship ??? And when they are and minute details are overlooked exposing the owner to headaches of water damage later - I think that epitomizes the bush leagues.

And I didn't even mention the the furring your guys forgot to install before the d-shield went in so that it doesn't bulge it at the bottom because of the chloraloy and cause the tile joints to not be plumb - you've all seen it - classic bush league.

Unfortunately this stuff happens all over all the time - even in million $$$ houses. Doesn't make it right, good, proper or acceptable and it is certainly bush league even if you are the poor ignoramus that doesn't realize it yet. many bushers improve and join the big boys, but just as many never become skilled enough yet still get paid to do a job.

xedos

You are assuming that neither the builder nor his employees/subcontractors know what they are doing. OK, if that's your viewpoint. I must be very fortunate to work with exceptionally qualified and dedicated craftsmen (and craftswomen).

BTW, add 40 to 30 and you are closer to my age. I know the definition of bush league. I'm just not certain it applies here. But, I am certain that jumping immediately to the conclusion, without a hint of evidence, that a builder does not know what he's doing is completely unwarranted.

Wasn't looking to chide you SCB. And I agree that throwing everyone under the bus isn't warranted and I have no idea what happens in your part of the country as the last project I did in Tulsa was ten years ago. But around here there is a lot of million $ crap that builders love to wax on about how " I build million dollar houses" and they have not a clue as to anything but the asking price.

Further , any that think a gypsumboard product is worthy of a shower in a million dollar house - and I don't care if that $1m is in NYC or the sticks - is simply a simpleton. If the customer is a wallboard salesman and request his shower be built that way the fine. But a builder that thinks a good practice for a $1,000,000 house is denshield is bush league in my view, sorry. Can they work ? Sure. But good - nope. And that's assuming ALL the details are met - I'm glad your crowd is at the top of the game but are they following TCNA B431-09 to the letter when doing denshield showers ??? With the correct fasteners not driven too deep, alkali res. tape and mortared joints, preslope, furred or notched studs for the liner thickness, the proper gaps between the dens and the receptor, the proper sealant installed neatly at those gaps, and crushed stone protecting the weep holes on the drain?

All of them ?

Really ?

Then your tradesmen are the best I've seen around the country or they must be working for way less than scale, or you're paying waaaaay above and are able to get them all to show up multiple times in the correct order over a few days . Which begs the question - if $$$ isn't a concern why not use a really good system like mudded or cement board walls and a topical waterproofing membrane + flanged drain instead ? That's the caliber of player in my league. - and it eliminates a lot of places that installation gotchas can rear their heads derailing water management. Which , is after all , rather important in a shower. More so in a million $ one.

"I was in a new construction $800k house today with bush league tile installers. The shower was a mess. An expensive home does NOT equate to a well built home. At least this builder sounds like he has an idea of what is supposed to happen. If I were plunking down that much cash for a home I'd be there to see the waterproofing installed, or at the very least step by step pictures."

Actually I agree with you and have seen some pretty shoddy workmanship done by so called luxury builders. However, I've been following my builder's work in every stage of build since we first met him. He has given me free reign to go into his homes he's building to look around. While I am no expert, I have been very impressed with his processes and his subs. He is a custom builder who completes a maximum of 18 homes a year.

But I'm not naive either. I do intend to be around daily to check on the work and since it's an easy walk from where we are now, no problems with that.

Then, Red Guard is not approved for use with Dens,

This is taken directly from the densshield website FAQ page:

"In fact, an additional
moisture barrier to the back side of DensShield Tile Backer is NOT recommended. Prior to the tile installation
it is permissible to apply a fluid applied membrane to the face of DensShield Tile Backer for enhanced
moisture resistance."

Um xedos, isn't redgard a fluid membrane?

Thank you starcraft. I am finding that anytime I question what or why my builder does something a particular way, I get a very detailed answer that matches overall good practices. This might be the first that is not considered "standard" practice so I am trying to do due diligence before we start building.

Yes, even an ol timer like me can be partially incorrect. I also think this is a new detail as Redgard wasn't around and liquid membranes not widespread when I first looked at Denshield last century. I am also not positive , but pretty darn sure that RG / any liquid membrane is not TCNA approved for showers over gypsum and I also fairly certain that Custom (RG's manuf.) doesn't approve that as tested method. I do know for a fact that Custom does not approve gypsum wall board as a suitable substrate for RG - and that's the waterproofer and first line of defense int he water mgmt. pie ! What does that tell you ???

Ask Mongo if he's got gypsum board of any kind in his shower .

I don't keep absolutely current on d-shield because it offers no value for any project I work on, but I find it curious that DS thinks their product even needs "enhanced
moisture resistance.".

The liquid or sheet waterproofers don't need additional water management when applied over cement or cement-board , so do ya'll really want to keep telling me how good and wonderful d-shield is for a shower in a million dollar home ??

Use it if you want in your shower and it makes you happy, but you'll NEVER convince me it's good product for a shower even if it's installed perfectly by the Queen's best tradesmen for all the crown jewels. There are simply better products that are easier to install on the market.

Are we talking about the same product? This is what our builder uses: densshield

xedos

I don't think the builder is using best practices, but then I don't know from the information provided by cpartist how the materials are being used. I would not use Densshield in a shower, but I cannot conclude that it would not work considering the substantial evidence over many years that it does work.

There are certainly what I consider better solutions, but I do not fault anyone for using a solution that works even if I would not use it.

cpartist

Yes, Densshield, or more exactly, DensShield™, from Georgia Pacific is the material. I jest kant spel.

I'm in agreement with you SCB. I'm not saying DS doesn't or can't work.

I am saying that there are too many steps and details that must be followed in order for it to be successful and that it's not reasonable to think they will all be followed given the number of trades and timespan involved.

I am also saying that it is not a product or system that is commensurate with what I think a bathroom in a million $ house should have either.