No idea. Just said she was having a birthday makeover, so must have been a -0 or -5 year. LOL

Thanks for the helpful input! DH and I discussed this a bit more last night. He has spoken with our GP about CoolSculpting and KYBELLA, and plans to consult with our dermatologist next. I will likely consult with the derm as well, having done so a number of years ago when he suggested filler. There have been new products come to market since I last spoke with him, so I'd be curious to know what he would suggest at this point.

It's funny, but now that this is on my mind I am really noticing people who have obviously had work. Hillary has, I'd say, after seeing her this morning and noticing how puffy her cheeks are. I absolutely would not want to go overboard! DH reminded me that we notice those whose work is obvious, but surely there are those who have had minimal "touch-ups" who just look good, and we don't ever think about them having had a procedure of any sort. I am sure that's true.

I appreciate the kind comments. I readily admit to not feeling as good about my looks as I once did, though, and to me that matters enough to look into corrective action.

I'm going to read up on the microneedle derma roller now. I've heard a little about this, but don't know enough to be informed.

I have Restylane under my eyes. I participated in the other thread, so I'll just condense here. I'm 70, so there's that. :) In 2003 I had the bags under my eyes removed. They weren't just normal everyone-has-bags-under-their-eyes, but really noticeable and they bothered me a lot. So, with surgery they were gone. However, over the next year or two, I noticed a hollowness and crepey skin. Restylane was suggested and it's quite amazing. It simply fills in the hollow areas, i.e., corrects a flaw. The amazing part is how long it lasts in the under-eye area. Initially it was one year, but the last treatment I had was 18 months after the previous. It doesn't necessarily last as long in other areas. Go figure. I pay approx. $500 for a syringe which is all I need at a time.

I had breast reduction at 32 years when I got the money together. I had a facelift at 63 and it was wonderful. I would like another one now but I have to lose weight. Dh says I am too old and perhaps I am. He probably doesn't want to spend money on an old bag if I am going to die soon-lol. He is younger than me and likely is looking ahead! I so believe in plastic surgery. Go to a highly respected doctor. I think I still look better than my peers without surgery. And the cousins who have had facelifts, and they are OLD now, still look better than their pals without surgery. When I have time, I will address the option of fillers-good idea.

I wrote in the other thread too & I sent you a PM with more detail. I had the laser treatment in the undereye area when I had my eyelids done. It wasn't painful but it did itch for a few days and the doc recommended Benadryl (plus the ointments prescribed) for that. I'm 67 now and this was in 2005 and my eyes still look great. The doc recommends getting Botox a couple of times a year to keep the eye area refreshed so I do that, especially for the 11's between the brows. DH has also had his eyes done.

I've also had Juvederm (Ultra XC). Here is an article about Juvederm and you can click on the before/after photos to see the difference.

http://www.juvederm.com/what-is-juvederm/juvederm-xc

I had 'marionette lines' I wanted to get rid of and it definitely works. I had my first treatment about 6 years ago, another one in 2012 and another one last week. You need to know that some people bruise easily from at least 1 or more needles so get the concealer ready. I usually have at least one pretty good one but they are usually gone in a week. I don't get that some of the photos above don't show any bruising after 2-3 days as almost everyone I have talked to said they had some bruising around the mouth.

Anyway, they will tell you that results, in terms of how long it lasts, may vary. Juvederm is supposed to last a bit longer than Restylane. I think they generally say 18 months to 2 years, but my last treatment lasted 3 years and I could have gone a little longer but wanted to get it out of the way.

Good luck with your decision Auntjen.

I firmly believe that it's something only the individual can decide, not hint-hint from someone else.

YES!!!

Jen, I can't remember if I told you .... I've had Botox one time. It was before my elopement in 2014, and since we were being married outside, in the direct sun, I knew the frown lines (11s) between my eyes would really show up in pictures. I had a gift certificate to a local spa, so used it for that.

I want to get it done again, but this time I'll go to my dermatolgist instead. I want to talk about a few other things, especially filler for the nose folds.

The Botox wasn't painful at all, just little needle pricks. It felt funny for a few days, a bit numb.

I told the spa lady that I'm not trying to look 25 again, just refreshed. It's no different to me than wearing makeup, or getting my hair highlighted.

(Just an aside .... my husband asked me before we all met how old you and Mr Jen are. On the drive home, he said, "Wow! She looks over 10 yrs younger than what you told me!") :)

*Allison, thank you ... you've given me ideas to talk to my Dr about. Very helpful!

MizGG, I think Botox hurts like hell. But it's over so fast and then doesn't hurt at all. Then some numbness. For me, the effects aren't immediate but take up to 10 days to be fully evident. My eyebrows still move, and that's key. When you see someone with really nicely arched brows, often it's Botox.

Refresh is a good way of putting it.

I might have mentioned this already in the other thread. I hated the bags under my eyes. It wasn't even something I talked about to my late husband because I didn't even want to acknowledge them. One day I worked up the nerve and told him I wanted to get my eyes done. He looked at me and went, "you mean Lasix?" Bless his heart. I told him no, silly, the bags under my eyes. And then he said, if that's what you want to do, it's fine with me.

MizGG, am I allowed to love him? Because if he said that, then I do. :-D What a kind comment! (We may have to compare notes on dermatologists or other providers in our area who do this type of work.)

And that's the thing - as Linelle says, I don't want to look a lot younger than I am, but I wouldn't mind looking like I'm still in my 40s (I'm 53). When I was in my 40s, I was told often that I looked like I was still in my 30s. People rarely (if ever, MrGG being an exception) tell me that I look younger than my age at this point. And I do agree with the notion that this is no different than makeup (well, it's a little more permanent) or hair highlights, although I've been pretty resistant to the idea - up until now, when I begin to think that it's something that would actually enhance my life.

I would also like to lose a bit of weight - not a lot, but I know I'm not where I should be, and certainly not where I feel most comfortable. As we age and lose weight, it always seems to really show in the face. I don't want an even more tired and haggard look.

Re the pain aspect, it's not something that worries me much. I've had quite a few tattoos done, as well as laser tattoo removal - the latter being one of the most intense pains I've known, but it too is over quickly. I have a pretty strong pain threshold.

Linelle, I remember driving home that day, and running to look in the mirror, thinking, no more 11s! But like you said, it took a few days to see the effect. :D

Luckily, I had it done a month before my wedding!

I'm just starting to notice bags under my eyes, but I can't tell if it's age or snoring-husband-no-sleep.

ETA: LOL, Jen! I'll tell him. :D (And, yes, this will be nothing compared to tattoos!)

Oh, the snoring husband/no sleep dilemma! I know all about that! Just recently I thought that perhaps we should try sharing the same bed for sleeping again - and then he fell asleep one night while I was on the computer, and I heard those familiar reverberations. Nope. He's still going to have a Snore Room. ;-)

I hate my 11s. Mine are more like a Roman numeral III - or, truthfully, more like someone's middle finger being stuck straight up. I had been referring to my bangs as poor girl's Botox, but I don't think I can get away with that forever.

ETA: I just scheduled a consultation with my dermatologist. I know him and like him, so figured that's a good place to at least start gathering more info.

I didn't think it was painful at all. It was like little bee stings and then it was over...til the next one. Ask if they use numbing cream before the injections. It helps a lot.

I've been getting fillers and botox for about 4 years, it does refresh your look for sure and I personally find it painful, and I also like someone said above I get one or 2 bruises and they do go away after barely a week. Botox does not show right away , more like the 5th day and the overall effect does take a few weeks to settle.

I am sensitive so for at least the first 48 hours I feel like I've been smacked around, to be honest. It does not prevent me from doing my normal activities, but I do plan to have a lighter schedule on those days, when possible.

There is a limit to the lifting that fillers can provide, my dr said he does not like to over inject to avoid having a too full look, i.e. squared face. I have been to 2 different drs and both were good, the second one injected me after I lost 10 pounds recently so I needed more that time.

I find it addictive, once you start and find you look better, you want more. I had my upper lip injected, for some reason my lower limp is quite plump in comparison to the upper, and those pin pricks along the lip line sure hurt, I had tears streaming down my face. I find that the lip plumping goes away fast . I only did the upper lip twice, I can fake it with lip liner and even out my lips that way. Of course I am always afraid of getting the "duck lip " effect so I always tell them to go easy.

these are my thoughts on the subject, keep us posted when you consult and good luck !!

I think your dermatologist would be the best place to start. My derm group as a medi-spa attached (upstairs) where the procedures are done. I had MOHS surgery (basel cell) on the side of my nose and for both the biopsy and pre-surgery numbing, the injection was quite painful. I used numbing cream the second time, it did take the bite off (LOL) but still hurt like heck. If you have procedures done, I would definitely ask for the cream. Mitch, I CANNOT imagine the needles around my lips!

I had several sessions of laser tattoo removal (I had purchased a package at a med spa), but on my first visit I was not told that I had the option of numbing cream and/or an ice pack. I was simply ushered into the room where the procedure was performed, and I thought I was going to pass out (or vomit) from the pain on my unprepared skin. It only lasted about 3 minutes, but was excruciating. The treated site turned into a nasty, bubbled blister overnight and was just an all-around terrible experience. I was reluctant to return to undergo this treatment again but I did, only the second time I was asked if I wanted an ice pack (well, of course I wanted a flippin' ice pack!) -- the numbing agent cost extra, so I opted not to use that. The difference in pain was night and day. So yes, if I have the option to have an area numbed, even if by ice, by all means, I'm going to do it.

A bee sting doesn't hurt? C'mon. But I keep going back, so I have no aversion to it. But it's definitely a silent OW! OW! OW! It's funny in a way.

Fillers have some kind of numbing agent in them, so after the initial poke, you can't feel anything. Sometimes I'll bruise a bit under my eyes but easily covered with concealer.

Jen, careful wishing you looked 10 years younger. You can start chasing after something that might not be realistic. Usually people seem surprised when I tell them how old I am, even though my hair is very gray and I have my share of facial lines. I don't think I necessarily look 10 years younger, but people have an image in their head of 70. Some 70 year olds seem very old. I'm slim, I take care of myself, and I think I'm youngish at heart. Without that, the face will give you away.

70 doesn't sound "old" to me anymore. I'm still amazed that my mom is 75 (and I wish I could share her photo here, as I'm sure you'd all agree that she doesn't look her age, and her sweet spirit just shines through even in pictures). I sometimes still can't quite believe that I'm in my 50s. Where did the years go?

It's not that I care about looking 10 years younger. I'd like to look like I'm still in my 40s, although it's just a number and not very important - or even necessarily meaningful - to me. Y'know, now that I think of it, Dame Helen Mirren is 70 and she comes across as much more youthful than women I know who are closer to my own age.

I agree with linelle, you want to look better not necessarily younger because that can be a slippery slope. These days I find it hard to judge age. Gray hair does not necessarily mean old as I am seeing more younger people with silver or gray in their hair, not to mention young men balding so early in life. I am also noticing more and more women with very thinning hair, sometimes almost balding. Hands and neck to me are a dead give away. You sometimes see a full unlined face but with a turkey neck or old sun damaged veiny hands.

The numbing cream is a prescript, which was covered by my insurance (minimal co-pay) and you use it 30 minutes before a procedure. First time they gave me a bit in a sterile jar, next time just called in a tube.

The medi-spa lady at the derm office was telling me her experience with injections and said ice pack helped her more than numbing cream.

My neck is great, my hands are horrid... but derm office said they are not "old lady hands." I was told filler in areas that get used more (hands, lips) do not last as long as filler in areas that are not used a lot (under eyes, for example).

fyi, I removed the two photos I had posted since they were taken by me or of me. Auntjen had seen and that's who I had intended to see them.

Like said above, I also want to look my best, fresher but not necessarily younger. Age is just a number. I'm very open here and IRL about being 55yo and having had a facelift at 50yo. (upper eyelids and cheeks were starting to droop so why not). I don't have anything to hide.

Linelle, MizGG and others, thanks for sharing your experiences.

I have another place to be removed, I think I'll try the ice pack before the injection this time! (and still use the numbing cream LOL)

I think most of us here want to look our best. I'm going to start another thread. HA!

Good idea on the ice before. I used ice packs after to reduce the bruising but didn't think about it before. I got pretty numb with the cream this last time. I really just feel a little prick and that's it. I guess my pain tolerance is higher than I thought. Some spots definitely hurt worse than others.

Auntjen, I believe you should do what you want! Fillers are not invasive or permanent. There are risks, but life is a risk and we all end up dying anyway. ;)

I am 42 and feel like I look older than my peers. My neck looks horrific, mostly because I am very fair and have forgotten to protect my neck over the years. I have nasolabial folds. If I had the $ I would have fillers done in a heartbeat. Because I don't and won't anytime in the foreseeable future, I investigated other ways. Found some people do facial exercises and say it helps. Has anyone done them? There is also a facial massage (Tanaka) that you do yourself that people recommend.

I thought of using OTC retinol but I am really concerned about thinning my skin long term.

Anele, I believe facial massage works. I posted in a previous thread that I had been using avocado oil and massaging my face, initially to remove sunscreen. but found amazing added benefit. I have been doing this now for over 6 months, and I am really impressed with the results. My skin is firmer, and lifted, obviously not as dramatic as a face lift but definitely noticeable.

I dont know anything about OTC retinol but there is a misconception about retin A thinning the skin. It sloughs off the dead surface skin, I think this is where the misconception is and than actually thickens the underlying skin, I have been using it for over 20 years.

RA, I must have missed that. Would you describe how you massage the avocado oil? And why avocado oil? Thanks!

RoseAbbey, thank you. So much info is contradictory; hard to know what to believe. I read things like this:

"The downsides of heavy duty exfoliation include thinning skin. Although new cells are facilitated by the retinoic acid, it may be that the Hayflick Limit (the number of times skin can regenerate itself before reaching its limit, at 52 times), is being speeded up. Certainly, many of the women that write to me report that after years of retinol, their skin seems thinner, duller and more delicate."

Article went onto say that the better method was glycolic acid, but other articles say THAT thins the skin.

Very good to know about the facial massage. I think I will start working on it once a day.

Here is what was reported to work well:

Tanaka Massage Pt 1

Tanaka Massage Pt 2

anele, what you quoted me is not referring to retin a. but deep exfoliation such as glycholic peels or microdermabrasion). Those methods definitely only take off the top layer while retin a thickens the under laying layer.

Tina, I use avocado oil because it contains a lot of skin loving ingredients and is will not clog pores, as many other oil do. There are probably other oils you could use but I like avocado. I apply the oil, and use my ring finger only starting under my eyes, up around my forehand and down the sides of my face where your lymphatic system is. Then I do upward motion on my cheeks and upward on my neck. I also include my decotage, as I use sunscreen daily there as well. I do this for about 5 minutes every evening before I take my nightly bath.

Thanks for the info RA! I may try that. Do you use a certain brand of oil?

I buy the Chosen Foods brand found at Costco. I actually first bought it for cooking now I keep a bottle in the bathroom. It is non gmo and 100% pure which is very important, you dont want it mixed with other oils which may clog your skin.

As most people said, do what you want!

I think well done Botox is amazing. I'm 36 and have been considering it for my forehead. I am very fair/pink and even fine lines show up on my skin.

I just started back on Retin A, after a 15 year hiatus after my acne cleared up after Accutane in my early 20s. A lot of dermatologists say that the most proven anti-aging skincare regime is Retin A and sunscreen.

I think it's very possible to go overboard on fillers, particularly in the cheeks and lips. Unfortunately, I think that all cosmetic procedures look better and more natural the younger you are.

I use a Retin A product packaged by my local doctor called Peel and Bleach cream. I use it every night. I don't find it at all harsh, but my skin has probably adjusted to it. I think it makes a difference in my skin's clarity. I've never had good skin, so that's saying a lot.

Speaking of cosmetic procedures and younger people, I was shocked to see these photos as I was perusing sites for info on fillers.

I have absolutely no love lost on the Kardashian clan, but this stopped me in my tracks. This is Kylie, the youngest girl. She's 18 years old, and I have no idea what all she has had done, but she's unrecognizable as her "former self." This is a sickness, IMO. It's truly sad.

Comparing the first photo of her to the last, to me it looks like she's just had her lips plumped. Maybe nose work? The rest just looks like makeup.

I haven't heard of Hayflick Limit so looked up. Found this article after reading several websites first:"7. Can I run out of skin by exfoliating with glycolic acid too often?

Glycolic exfoliation, in fact all exfoliation, will never cause you to
run out of skin. This question is usually asked based on the Hayflick
Limit, which states that, "There is a limit to the number of times a
fully differentiated human cell divides. That limit is between 40 and 60
divisions, and applies to all human cell types that have been studied."
From this theory, it may sound like you have a finite number of skin
cells and exfoliation is depleting them faster than the natural process.
However, the Hayflick Limit only applies to differentiated cells, cells
in their actual final, useful form. The Limit does not apply to your
skin stem cells, as they are not fully differentiated and continue to
make new cells for your entire life. Proper exfoliation only removes the
surface layer of dead cells that should have already fallen off. Put
another way, if the Hayflick limit applied to skin, then at a certain
age your cuts and abrasions would stop healing! And we know that doesn’t
happen."

Other then the lips, I think think the difference in Kylie Jenner is mostly going from the age 11 to 18. And a really good make-up artist and eyebrow specialist.

Ummm, I still think she's had more work done than that. Doesn't matter, except that in her case, I can't understand why it was considered necessary.

Then again, I'm a little embarrassed to even be talking about her in a public forum. The Kardashian/Jenner ubiquity is what's truly not necessary. I was just using her as an example of someone who is very young and has had work done.

I'm not quite understanding celebrities who come away with so-called botched faces following procedures. It is just a matter of them having gone too far, or did something just not work properly for them? Surely they have enough money to hire the best of the best when it comes to surgeons/providers.

She's had chin and eye work done too, in addition to nose and lips.

She was a pretty girl before so clearly it wasn't necessary, but it Does look more natural on her than someone like Joan rivers. But I don't think poor Kylie will age well.

Looking at those two pics, I agree, it does look like she's had a lot done. She was pretty to begin with, so it's too bad. But I'm not surprised considering her family. I think Kim Kardashian is becoming more and more unattractive and will end up looking like Jocelyn Wildenstein eventually.

I would say the eyebrow arch is courtesy of Botox, not that there's anything wrong with it.

I watched a couple of episodes of the Kardashian's over the holidays, please dont judge me, there was nothing else on but repeats on cable :>) Anyway I see that Chris Jenner either gave up using fillers, which I cant believe or maybe she had to stop using for some reason. Her under eye area, especially under one eye looked terrible especially under certain lighting. That would be one of my concerns in using fillers.

Here's what E reports about Kylie's procedures with quotes from her. (First time I ever googled Kylie Jenner, hope I'm not now considered a follower..)

Kylie's plastic procedures. And the doctor she trusts.

Yeah Botox can do the eyebrow arch, but her eyelid crease has moved. She used to have a little bit of hooding and now she doesn't. That's not aging or makeup. And her chin is smaller.

How does Botox raise your eyebrow? I'm not saying she hasn't had it done, but in the last picture she is also raising it herself.

allison, look at all of K's photos. One brow is naturally higher than the other. That's not selective arching one eyebrow. I'm not sure how Botox raises eyebrows, but it does. It's my favorite aspect. I originally got it for the ll between my brows (for which it really doesn't do that much) and instead my brows got an awesome arch. Not weird or fake, just a better brow. I think brows are one of a face's most expressive elements.

Allison, thank you for researching. What do you think is meant by "proper exfoliation"? As in, are there types which do damage?

I wonder if some people who complain of thinning skin are blaming it on products when it is more a matter of age.

RA, I see now that I was using retinol and Retin A interchangeably and they are different.

The forehead has muscles that raise the eyebrows and lower the eyebrows. If you selectively paralyze the ones that lower the brow, the eyebrows will go up.

This is what accounts for the "surprised" look that some people don't like about botox, but if you have a naturally low brow like Kylie it can be an asset.

Amy Schumer--love her or hate her-- has a joke that "the Kardashians take the faces they are born with as a a suggestion."

Like any woman I am naturally interested in this topic. But as a person with a blood clotting disorder, I have to tell you that reading about these procedures and the bruising they cause makes my finger tips feel light and almost makes me sick because they could kill me. So while I envy those who can have procedures that make them look "well rested," there is none of it in my future. I will have to rely on sleep :-)

Anele, thank you so much for the tanaka massage link. I just tried it and even if it doesn't change my looks, it sure feels good. I'm going to try it daily and will report back if I notice a change. I've always looked young for my age, and then suddenly upon turning 50 I feel as if my looks caught up to my age. Not a good thing! Hopefully this helps.