There are places that sell a product and installs what was ordered...very little design/customer service...and they don't lay out any disclaimers about how the process is done (ie seams, cutouts, overhang). And there are places that do their best to look at every possible scenario from every possible angle and disclose every little detail.

It's true that the undersides of overhang is never addressed in this industry except maybe by kitchen designers...if they have ever been stung by this situation.

In my area, we only do 3cm. But I remember once a client called me about their Silestone. It had a stamped ink logo in several places under their peninsula overhang that was visible from their sunken living room nearby. Sigh. The client took my advice and painted it black themselves. I try to now disclose this to all clients with overhang along with about a million other things kitchen designers must tell homeowners.

I do agree the nails are bad...let them come fix that. And then...Paint it like sodex suggested. That is the best solution.

Snookums, Maybe in your area (like mine) 3cm is the norm. And you're right....you don't do a plywood underlayment with 3cm. But it is very common in other areas of the country.

Here are some photos I found on Google search: The first one is from a post in Gardenweb. The second one is a job I did...shows corbels and metal plates (unfinished 3cm bottom). The 3/4th pics show more plywood underlayment pics from Google images.

Here is the discussion with the first pic: Click this link -->[Gardenweb Discussion[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/granite-countertops-2cm-vs-3cm-dsvw-vd~206211)

Where in the country are you that 3cm was only an option? Typically, Cambria is only readily available in 3cm and 2cm is a special order. Another poster is correct, its usually your general contractors job to finish the underside unless it was specifically stated in your counter top contract. Most counter top fabricators and installers don't employ a handyman or woodworker however most know plenty in the area and will help you get in touch with someone who can finish off the plywood if you don't have a GC. I do agree with you though that the nails sticking out of the plywood are totally unacceptable (and unsafe), however from working in this field for nearly 10 years I would be surprised if there if there isn't a disclaimer about something just like that that you may have unknowingly signed.

Well, it seems to me, that if the OP's counter and above examples are considered to be acceptable in the industry, then the industry needs to get on the ball to develop and deliver more professional and attractive looking workmanship/standards for handling overhangs.

Wasn't insinuating that bryan was trying to get out of paying , only trying to get across that a $7k isn't full of learjet profit margin and finished undersides are not common at any price point and cost extra no matter the market.

Snookums, if you dig deep enough in any kitchen at any price point you'll find something that offends someone's sensibilities. Currently working on a $250+ kitchen and the local carpenter just can't get over that the boxes are made of "that partialboard crap" - which he had to ask about because none is exposed to let him know what the sheetgoods are.

Snookums, on the east coast of the US we use 3cm materials and its often left raw or unfinished. I am lucky enough to work for one of the most professional and detail oriented fabricators in Southern NJ / Philadelphia area. Our standard is to finish the underside of every island overhang that we install, because we hold ourselves to a higher standard. However, in areas where 2cm materials are used unfinished plywood is as much as (I'm assuming) the fabricators are able to do. Stone workers are not finish carpenters. You wouldn't want your Gardener fixing an electrical issue in your home, correct? Same idea applies. Its up to the kitchen designer to approach this with their clientele.

If it was my granite company and I was running the show I would have my sales people address the fact that the plywood would remain unfinished and visible prior to the project being sold, that way the end user knows what to expect and the fabricator can get their customer in touch with the right people and have a finish carpenter contracted before the tops go in. Setting the correct expectations for your customers can make or break you sometimes.

Exactly. Here, after purchasing a high-end counter, the customer comes home to rough plywood and nails sticking out and is somehow supposed to figure out how to professionally finish it himself.

Can we see the top surface? Curious how wide it is.

I'd love to see what a $250k+ kitchen looks like! :-)

The next time you're in a big box store, take a look down the plywood isle. You'll see some cabinet-grade birch or oak at around $90.00 a sheet. It is very flat, has a beautiful smooth knot-free veneer on each side, and is dimensionally stable.

A few pallets over you'll find the $24.00-a-sheet CDX with the unfilled knotholes, rough finish, and undulations that was used in the picture. This is roof sheathing, not countertop underlayment.

I thought that looked like exterior grade. Unbelievable.

In previous posts here, the metal support bars shown in Kompy's installation, photo 2, have been recommended. If they are authorized by Cambria, surely they know about the flat bars. I believe that's all he needed as those corbels are decorative.

Joseph makes a great point...there are huge differences in plywood materials. Hopefully, this post will help educate (and remind) both pros and homeowners to address this situation. And for pros to bring this up with people...especially with 'raised bar tops' or if lower chair or sofa seating is nearby....which are the situations in which this is an issue.

I am going to call my fabricator and ask them how much extra they would charge to polish overhang undersides. I like the idea of it being an option that I can offer.

My only other recommendation for any CAMBRIA client...is to consider getting the 4cm instead of laminated 2cm or 3cm. 4cm is about 1.5" thick and on an average kitchen, only adds a few hundred dollars. Cambria also offers several nice ogee edges in the 4cm that you can't get with the 3cm. So be sure to get quotes on both thicknesses.

The Kitchen Place, Cambria 4cm is just a laminated edge profile. As much as I love Cambria as a material their marketing info on their website is confusing and misleading. They only create slabs at 1cm, 2cm & 3cm thicknesses. Everything else is up to the fabricator to give it the thicker look by means of lamination. Still means you would have to use a plywood substrate, however, you could cover up the substrate with the 1cm material you are laminating onto the 3cm to create the thicker look.

Also for the sake of clarity, for the non-pros on this thread. It will not add only a few hundred dollars, a 4cm edge implies that you will be purchasing a 3cm and a 1cm slab at an average end user cost of $2,500-3,000 a slab. Plus average cost of lamination at $30 a foot. It starts to become very expensive.

So I have to ask for those who do not want exposed plywood what are you expecting? Cabinet grade plywood? Paint? Laminate? Wood to match the cabinet?

Stan Z, I think the point is that people should be told ahead of time what they are getting for their money. For example, If you order 2cm Quartz you will see exposed plywood under your overhang and it will cost X. If you do not like exposed plywood you need to purchase 3cm Quartz and it will cost X. That way people can make their own choice. It doesn't sound like the OP was given a choice.

For those of us who are not contractors and maybe only remodeling 1 kitchen in our lifetimes it would be impossible to know everything there is to know no matter how much research you do. I think if you are selling countertops this should be pretty basic information.

And at the very least they should use plywood that won't give you splinters in your legs.

Debbie B., a $250k kitchen would not surprise me in many high cost areas. We have a 9x11" kitchen and did IKEA and when I got quotes from contractors one was $100k! We spend a lot less than that of course, but the cost of the cabinets and counters adds up for larger kitchens... so going with high end custom cabinets and expensive appliances in a larger kitchen would easily run $250k here. It would probably look much the same as many of the lovely kitchens showcased on gardenweb - not all of which cost that much of course!

skbryan thanks for bringing this up, we are about to have 2cm granite installed over plywood. I also didn't realize the bottom would not be covered with a cover panel or something to match the cabinets. At least there are no nails - what were those nails even doing there? The plywood should b screwed on not nailed... anyway our cabinets are brown-black so I will probably end up painting or staining the bottom to match the cabinets just because that would bug me to see whenever I lean down to clean. Yours might look best painted white to match the cabinets.

Thank you for all the comments. If I had known ahead of time about the
ugly plywood underside, I would definitely have paid the extra charge
for a professional non-plywood installation. But I was not told about
that nor given the choice of a 2cm or a 3cm size. The countertop is
2cm. The overhang is 12". It would make me happy if the reinstalled
the entire countertop in a professional manner with me paying the
difference between the first crap. More photos - the good, the bad, and the ugly. . .

skbryan:

Have them clip the nails, fill the knot holes, custom fit some V-32 plastic laminate to within 1/8" of the edge and fill that gap with color matched silicone. Your dreams of a do-over are unrealistic. It's time move on.

I've asked the fabricator to make the counter top look similar to the below (without the elaborate corbels). I told them we would pay the difference of what we already spent and the cost of doing it right. Waiting to hear back with their suggestions. Does someone have a photo of the laminate solution? Thank you.

I wonder if iron-on wood veneer would be a solution. It used to be available in larger widths (not just edge banding). There is also 1/8" birch plywood out there that could be cut to size/shape and glued to the underside for a smoother finish. I do not know what those materials would cost though

Skbryan, Your fabricators are awful. What are they thinking to leave nails sticking out like that! It's criminal. A kid playing under that counter could easily poke his/her head with those nails. I'm glad to hear they agree to remove the nails.

I have plywood under my counters too. I don't know what kind of plywood was used on my counters but it is very smooth with no knots. The cuts are very straight too. Here's some pictures:

Maybe you can add a thin layer of wood veneer to cover up the plywood or perhaps paint the plywood the same color as your cabinets.

You don't want plywood; you have plywood. V-32 plastic laminate. I don't just make this stuff up; I've been there and done that. This is a cost-effective real-world solution.

Install some corbels, paint underneath, and call it good. That is what your GC should have done from the beginning. It is not the counter fabricators role to do any of that. It is your GC's.

OP again, sorry for your frustration during what should have been such a happy and exciting time. The installers should have absolutely *communicated* with you what their intent was with your overhang. They took your options away and made the decision themselves. That is what I find so unacceptable with your install.

Joseph Corlett, do you have any photos of what you are speaking of? I looked on the internet, but couldn't find any counter top underside finished with laminate. I'm having a hard time picturing this in my mind as to what it would look like, and I would really like to see some examples of what you are suggesting. Thank you all for your suggestions and advice. Still waiting to hear back from the fabricator. . .

No, I don't have any pictures. I suggested plastic laminate because it's very thin and very easy to clean and sanitary compared to paint, however, because they used roof sheathing instead of cabinet grade plywood, the laminate will undulate somewhat. I wouldn't use gloss.

I want to thank you for this thread. We recently ordered Cambria Brittanica counter tops, and my island will also have a 12" overhang. We also weren't given a choice between 2cm or 3cm. In fact, I have no idea what we purchased.
Just emailed the sale rep and asked. I'm still waiting on my island so have a little time left but this thread was a real eye opener.
Best of luck, I hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction.

I am hoping that skbryan will come back and tell us how it all ended.

I just spoke to my sales rep and was told that 3cm is the norm here so no plywood. But I think not telling your client that 2cm gets you that look is ridiculous and thoughtless. I really hope the skbryan gets this worked out. I'd be livid too.

UPDATE: After going back and forth with the company I purchased the countertops from, they agreed to fix the issue . . . for about $1300 and the cost for me to miss a day of work. I didn't mind paying for the extra countertop pieces, but it irritates me that I got hit with another labor charge. It was clear that they were not inclined to fix it whether I paid for it or not. They came and removed the whole thing and took it away to work on it and then brought it back the next day. They also replaced the ultra cheap cracked and splintery plywood base and replaced with a MUCH better quality plywood base. Anyway, now the countertop looks like it should. It is polished on the top and bottom and looks very nice.

Ellie, I'm glad that you found the post useful. I am still very angry that they tried to stick me the unfinshed and poor quality plywood underside. You would think that before Cambria certifies a company as a reseller/installer, they would educate them about their product and installation options. Maybe they did. . . who knows?

Anyway, I am very glad to have this installation behind me!

@skbryan I'm so glad you got this resolved. I absolutely get the anger (in the middle of a major reno. here and nothing's worked out the way it should) but at least it's behind you now. (Psst.. you should still call Cambria and let them know what happened. )

I'm glad the OP got this resolved.

Meghans10, I realize it's a laminated edge. Cambria does a beautiful job on their laminated edges. Most of my clients choose the Boulder (ogee) edge...you can't even see the joint.

Meghans10 You wrote: Also for the sake of clarity, for the non-pros on this thread. It will not add only a few hundred dollars, a 4cm edge implies that you will be purchasing a 3cm and a 1cm slab at an average end user cost of $2,500-3,000 a slab. Plus average cost of lamination at $30 a foot. It starts to become very expensive.

My Reply: In my area, what you wrote is not the case with Cambria. Maybe your market is different. Here, 3cm is $89 per square foot and 4cm is $94 per square foot installed. The only other typical fabrication costs are cutouts, template and delivery. A 50 SF kitchen top would only be $250 more. Almost every one of our Cambria clients upgrade to the 4cm for this reason. 4cm also eliminates a bulk of the base cabinet shimming required when going with a 3cm thickness top.

With Cambria doing their own fabrication at their own fabrication centers, I'm not sure why your costs are higher on the 4cm thickness. You might want to double check this.

According to the manufacturer, 1cm Cambria is to be cut into tile only and not used for countertops. You laminate (2) pieces of 2cm to get to 4cm.

"4cm also eliminates a bulk of the base cabinet shimming required when going with a 3cm thickness top."

Cabinets must be shimmed plumb and level no matter the countertop thickness. 2 cm built up to 4cm works well by covering the shims on top of out-of-level existing face frame cabinets when the underlayment is adjusted accordingly.

Hello skbryan,

We are very disappointed to hear of your experience. This type of work is in no way up to our installation standards and we sincerely apologize for the service you received. We do train in all of our certified installers our standards and best practices in order to offer customers across the nation the best service possible. We would like to speak with you directly regarding your experience in order to understand what happened so that we may avoid any future installs of this quality in the future.

Please give us a call at 1-866-CAMBRIA from 7am to 7pm Mondays through Fridays, or from 8am to 1pm on Saturdays. Additionally, if you would prefer to communicate via email you may do so by reaching us at CustomerService@CambriaUSA.com

Thank you for choosing Cambria, and we will look forward to hearing from you.

That is absolutely unacceptable. Preferably, you should only see the exposed stone underside with supports. The unfinished look is the sign of an non professional installer.

With the exception of unmanaged customer expectations, there is nothing apparently "wrong" with the installation.

Please make Cambria aware. They should give serious thought to kicking loose this distributor.

Joe, there is no possibility that there should've been nails sticking out of the countertop. That is not an unmanaged customer expectation. Once the customer knows something is wrong they begin looking at everything and then they find lots to worry about. Your solution was a good one but that's not what the customer wanted. Had it been done right in the first place ( no nails) this would've been a non-issue. But it wasn't.

practigal:

You are correct. I typed before reviewing the poking screws. My apologies.

Unfinished plywood is industry standard for 2cm laminated. The screws are a hazard and not professional. The plywood is acceptable.

3cm is standard in our area and it actually cost more to get 2cm. Our Cambria fabricator Lakside Surfaces is out of Michigan does an AWESOME JOB and you would NEVER! see that under a countertop done by a professional.

I just had my Cambria counter tops installed and am very disappointed with the raw ply wood edge under neath. Now that it is in. What can be done to protect the knees of peoplewho will sit at the bar top? It is rough under neath and I think the ply wood was a little warped so a rough edge is open in one spot I read that I can paint the under side to help hide the plywood but can the rough part be sanded?

Hello lockhac1, we would be more than happy to look into this for you. Please give our Customer Care team a call at 866-226-2742, thank you!

I just had my subtops put in and was wondering the same thing. Too expensive to buy from Cabinet Manufacturer so I think I'm going to get white hardboard from home depot for $15.

• I am having 3cm Cambria quartz installed and fabricator is saying I do not need a plywood underlayment. I am really concerned that without it I risk the chance of it cracking or sinking. Also, at some point, someone will need to stand/kneel on the countertop. Is there a definitive answer on plywood vs no plywood?

Thank you for this post!! I found myself looking up images to see if this was a standard "end look" for quartz counters. And yes, mine has small screws sticking out as well. Not attractive, and you are right they don't even mention this is how it will look.

liz:

You need no plywood with 3cm. You should be able to dance a Conga line across a properly installed countertop.

I am a fabricator. A plywood underlayment for 2CM is typically complemented by a 4CM drop edge which masks the underlayment on the edge. the plywood is really just a spacer as it does not contribute significantly to the structural integrity of the overhang.

For 3CM quartz a "fussy" fab shop will grind the underside of the overhang to remove the printed Logo's from the OEM. If requested the fabricator can polish the underside but the fab shop polish will not be of the same quality as the surface. However, it will be good enough to look finished on the underside. Polishing the underside is NOT an option typically offered by the fabricator. In my business we've learned to ask the question when the layout of the room, and particularly the stairway location, means the underside will be readily visible on a regular basis and not just when someone is on the floor looking up.

Another option is to make the overhang "double thick" where 2 pieces of the engineered stone are mated back to back so a factory finish is on both sides. This is an easy option for 4CM assuming corbels are used or the double thickness is extended back over the cabinet.

Finally, some natural stones that are crack prone have a fiberglass matting epoxied on to the back of the stone to help it hold together during transport, fabrication, and install. A competent fab shop will remove this backing as a matter of course. I am always annoyed at the poor quality evidenced by a job where the backing can be felt and seen on an island overhang and even on the narrow countertop overhangs.

If you really want a great looking underside the best way is to double up the material back to back. It's an expensive way to do it for a variety of reasons.

@skbryan

Glad this all ended up working out for you in the end. You mentioned you got them to "Fix" the underside. How did they fix it? did you upgrade to a 3CM with supports? or did they make the overhang "double thick" as @Granite City Services mentioned.

Thanks,

alex