Lol...I was thinking I'm gonna have a really green patch of grass outside the window.

My rigging is in the basement so it all gets wasted down the drain

How do you know the defficient nutrients ?

What I've commonly seen throught tutorials and explannation, it is recommended to make an half strengh solution to top up the reservoir when water level is lower. This way, you will balance the defficient and saturated nutrients. You'll need to experiment arround that, you shouldn't get dramatic changes.

After that, I'd suggest you to go with powder nutrients if you really want to be cost efficient, I'm running on jack's hydro and jack's calcium and it really seems to be a good product (note that I,ve never run on liquid nutrient). The only downside is you have to weight and dissolve in water A/B solution. You can also make your very own nutrient recipe, which should be the best, but it is way more trouble since you can't mix powder very well (you'd probably need lab stuff and calculate to do so), but you could still make your own liquid nutrient bottle so you wouldn't have to weight all salt every time.

Another item that I'm curious about is why anybody would use gh flora series if Maxigrow/bloom is nearly as good and waaay cheaper....

Hydro,

The biggest proponent I've seen for water changes says that a density of salts builds up when you just top it off, and eventually those salts lead to an imbalance that hurts the plants.

What's your view on that?
Trust me, I am not looking forward to hauling buckets of water to the back door.

Also, I've read that topping off the water after plants have formed air roots "drowns" them.

Here's why I would like this cleared up: I have a 27-gallon res that I've been using to grow kale and lettuce, DWC with 2 air discs putting out quite a lot of bubbles. When I did my water change I left about 2" below the net cups. Now that I've harvested about half the lettuce and started some seedlings, I'm thinking of topping off the water so my seedlings (who don't have long enough roots to reach the current water level) can survive. Will this kill my mature plants? My kale is doing great and I don't want to "drown" it.

Thanks for your help!

I don't have an EC meter yet. I reckon that is important for micromanaging nutes. Once I produce some food I can present a business case to my wife. For now she just wants to see some produce :-)

This is the one I have. Didn't break the bank. Is it accurate? Who knows?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002C0A7ZY?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s01

But if you follow the directions on the Flora series labels, it doesn't get you anywhere near the ppm that other sources say you need. That's why I'm so confused. Follow the directions from GH, one of the most trusted nutrient manufacturers around? Or add nutes according to a chart until you hit a certain ppm?

Hey Mitch. It's true that imbalances can cause issues. Mainly due to elements getting locked out or having uptake inhibited by more antagonistic elements. Toxicities can occur as well with salt build up but have found both of those to be rare. Just look at the vastly different ratios people can grow just fine with. 4-18-38 or 10-5-14. Neither one of those is going to hurt a plant yet they are waaaaay different. Things really need to be out of whack to create true imbalances. And in regards to topping up with nutes it's a matter of when and with what that solves any salt build up that may lead to problems. So my view on that is that they don't know how to do it correctly and starting fresh with frequent res changes is basically bulletproof and the safest way to go so that's what most people do.

Some just top up with 1/4 strength nutes and stretch out their res changes. Since you're usually only topping up a small fraction of the total volume it's damn near impossible to throw things out of whack since the PPM that you are putting back in is a mere fraction of what you started with due to dilution.

"Drowning" your roots will only happen if they can't get the oxygen they need. If your solution is adequately aerated you shouldn't have any issues and Kale doesn't need much as far as dissolved oxygen anyway. If you're covering some roots that have never been covered before you may see a little browning from some of the fine root hair dying off though if they were indeed "air roots" but that shouldn't cause any issues. Roots slough off bits of their skin all the time leaving dead organic matter which, if using beneficials, will get broken down into usable elements again.

hvg why don't you accept PMs?

Ah...didn't know I don't. Do I need to turn it on somewhere?

I think there is a drop down menu in profile -> advanced settings

Didn't see anything. I saw "Messages" but it just says that I have none.

There are two types of hydroponics markets out there. One is the people with the mindset that they have to buy everything prepared and manufactured to grow hydroponically. These people pay some hefty premiums and markups for some relatively easy things to fabricate and mix up if one has the energy and some very moderate construction skill. Then there is a DIY crowd. I got started in hydroponics when it was relatively new (the 1970's) and making systems and nutrients yourself was the only option.

Now, after a good number of years have passed, I do work with both home made systems and manufactured systems but the one thing I have always done is mix my own nutrients. And I have enjoyed great success growing with my "home brew" nutrients which happen to be quite affordable. After years of experimenting, I have settled on the nutrient Keith Roberto recommends and describes in his book How to Hydroponics. (which also details some excellent DIY grow systems as well)

So to get back on topic, I change my nutrients like clockwork every 2 weeks, this is affordable because my nutrients are affordable as they are made up of common, easily acquired, salts. I never have to worry about trace element levels getting too out of whack because it is all new every 2 weeks. (And my lawn loves it!)

hvg on my profile can you see buttons for "follow" or "message"? Funny I was talking to another grower on here the other day about how cumbersome this site is to use for such things...

yeah. I see them under ideabooks. I don't have any started. Maybe that's why you can't message me?

Maybe. Message me and I'll see if I can msg you back

Rick. There are plenty of us that can and do build systems yet buy prepared nutes but realizing you don't have to buy the outrageously priced stuff to get great results. Your assumptions are very flawed.

hvg (hope you don't mind being called that) I got your message and responded.

Hydro, What is flawed about having success mixing your own nutrients? I am sure there are excellent blends of prepared nutrients available and they can be quite productive. But in the end they're all just a mixture of salts. The right ratios are all you need to know.

Hydro,

That has helped me SO much. Thank you! Now I don't have to throw seedlings into the yard and listen to them scream. Seriously, that is great info!

Onward!

Rick, I never stated anything was flawed about having success with mixing your own nutes. Your flawed assumptions are about that there are only TWO types of hydroponic markets out there. One that can't build anything and thinks that they "have to" buy heavily marked up and expensive nutes and systems to grow hydroponically and the other one that can build their systems and mix their own nutes. Your assumption that you have to be one or the other is flawed. Maybe that has been your experience but there is everything in between as well.

Mitch. I can't say for sure how GH lists their PPM levels but it may be that they are listing them as actual PPM and not what a meter will tell you. Believe it or not there is a difference and sometimes a big difference. Or they could be using a different conversion factor than your meter but that's more unlikely.

PPM meters read EC first and then do a conversion that averages it out. It's not true PPM and since elements have different electrical conductivity you can have some big differences. Monopotassium Phosphate which gets used a lot for the P and K will actually read less than half of it's actual PPMs meaning if you had 1000ppm of that your meter is going to tell you it's only about 400ppm if you're using a meter that uses the .5 conversion which seems to most common. So bloom boosters that are heavy on Monopotassium phosphate will most likely be stronger than what a meter will tell you.

But given that, it's not like there is going to be such a huge difference in the reading of a complete mix that it make the difference of killing your plants or being just fine. Just realize meters are an approximation so trying to match up numbers and such is difficult and a guessing game.

Hydro, OK I get your point, what I was trying to express was the fact that it is done to both extremes and, as you point out, to many levels in between. What I was trying to say is that making one's own nutrients is quite affordable. I have heard many people complain about hydroponics because of the cost of maintaining their systems, due mainly to cost of nutes. And that doesn't have to be.

Gardev,

You ask why anyone would use liquid GH. It's really about being new and GH is the most commonly suggested.

I've since bought granular nutrients and will switch when the GH is gone.

I think the experienced growers just want to give us newbs something tried and true to get started.

I agree Rick. Mixing your own is by far the most cost effective. I don't ever suggest it though to people just getting into hydro or novices since it adds a layer of complexity that's can cause confusion too early on, in my opinion. Besides, an no offense meant to anyone here, a lot of people who are experimenting with hydro now probably won't be doing it a year later. Hobbies come and go. And some stick. And even when you buy small quantities of salts and the micros and whatnot to mix up you'll have nutes for a long long time. I guess if they stop doing hydro they could use it on their lawn. Ha!

Hydro, I must confess up front I am a chemist which makes it less intimidating for sure. But just for knowing the cost of this, I took the 5 major nutrient ingredients I add to make my concentrates and priced them in the 50 pound bulk bags they come in. (That is how I purchase it in bulk 50 pound bags) Then I took the mix I use and figured out a price per gallon to mix my concentrate. Then I divided the quantity of concentrate I use to make 1 gallon of working nutrient and came up with a price of working nutrient per gallon. It was so low I had to check my numbers on the spreadsheet I made. For vegetative mix it was 3¢ per gallon and for Fruiting mix it was 4¢ per gallon. And it was actually less but at 2 decimal places it actually rounded up to those prices. I was shocked. (By the way, 50 pound bags last at least 3 years for the major ingredients)

The bulk nutrients are really easy to mix. Just weigh out a portion on a gram scale of each salt and mix them to dissolve in water and dilute to 1 gallon. Not even close to needing to be a chemist for this, more like an average cook can do it. I mix 2 fractions, the nitrates and the sulfates so they don't drop out of solution. That is the way most commercial nutrients are packaged as well.

I did not include the cost of trace minerals which I calculated as well because they are more difficult to proportion for anyone without the proper measuring tools which for trace nutrients involves scientific glassware. But the nutrients only add 2¢ per gallon to my mix. Pre mixed trace elements are also available at hydroponics stores (albeit at a higher price) and are made to be simply measured out and added to nutrient mixes.

This may not be for everyone, but for anyone serious about the hobby, pricing my costs was a real eye opener!

In addition to Kieth Roberto's formula which I like, there is an excellent book by Jim McCaskill called Plant Nutrient Facts for Hydroponics & How to make your own fully formulated plant nutrient. He goes through the math and gives worksheets to help a hobbyist formulate their own nutes. It may be hard to find the book but worth looking if you are serious.

Chemist Rick, that is awesome! Definitely the way to go. I wish I'd read this before I mixed calcium nitrate and epsom salts. LOL. Clumps.
Live and learn.

I bought some 4-18-38 that I will use when my GH is gone. It's about a nickel per gallon.