The Vytex Potomac is their top of the line.. I actually thought it was the Fortis myself but its not, the fortis is their middle window, just below potomac. The Fortis still looks good though and seems solid as well.

the Potomac is a deceunck extrusion which is nice and solid with some nice features.

the fortis uses almost the same exact extrusion as soft lite.

Both the energy performance and structural numbers on potomac seem very good.

I notice it has a magnetic seal,foam filled frame, and grey mylar weather stripping which is nice and in conjunction with the other features such as composite reinforcement. The locks and keepers are also very heavy duty.

your price seems good ( 570 per) for the Potomac. You may want to ask the dealer about triple pane glass and see what kind of pricing you can get. The Vytex Window is a top window offering and one of a few brands favored by true window pro's.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. After a lot of research, we are going with the Vytex Potomac; final price is 5700 for 10 double hungs in double pane glass. We like the look of it and the overall solid feel of the window. The vytex fortis was also nice and a bit less but im hooked on the potomac series.

I did inquire about upgrading to triple pane glass glass but its outside our price zone and the double pane energy numbers are very good so i think we are good, the dealer agreed.

after the windows go in, we are going to invest in the vytex patio door. We saw it and tested it out in the dealer showroom and it is nice and smooth and nice looking. We have some preliminary pricing on that( 2300 ) which was in line with some other brands that are recommended on this board. After the window install, im going to see if they can work with us on that price. I didnt want to attempt any price negotiations until we are set to order.

i will keep everyone posted. Thanks

I don't have personal experience with that line as it reach is somewhat limited, but the look and numbers on it are good. There was QC and CS type stuff floating around at one point, but again, it passes the eye test. $570 ea for a good performer is a very good price. If you are dealing with a company with a great reputation, storefront, etc, you are not likely to beat that.

+1. Solid window. As long as the company behind it is brick and mortar and well vetted, I think you should be just fine.

Yes!

It could be so fine .

What Pam?

Flyer guy, did you compare vytex to the okna 500s?????

Im having a hard time selecting between the 2

Yes, i liked the overall feel of the vytex a little better as well as the look. Although the okna looked pretty good as well. I just think you are getting more for your money with the vytex window in terms of features. Both are good windows and both seem to get great reviews.

Could you tell which of the 2 had less glass area because width of frame (thickness) ??? And if so how much difference?? 1/4. 1/2 inch ???

Flyerguy, what features did you feel like the Vytex offered that the okna does not? Just curious.

My experience is limited with the Vytex, however from the stats and reference of my colleagues that are more familiar with it, you really won't go wrong with either choice.

Objectively speaking, the Okna 500dx will have a better u factor and I believe that the air infiltration rating is a little better. It will also have more glass area. The glass difference will be a minimum of 1/2", but I believe that it is more. That said, again, I think that they are both very good, and taking a close look at the installation companies offering the product would probably be a wise plan of action in choosing.

I dont think the very slight difference in thermal numbers will make any difference, they are basically the same. The vytex window has the same thermal number as the okna 800.

the additional features the vytex has that the okna 500 doesnt are the following:

composite reinforcement bars

magnetic seal. I also like how they added a secondary bulb seal. It has the magnetic seal then a secondary bulb seal.

interlocking sill

tilt and lock mechnism thats " all in one" . The locks also look very strong.

the sash has a slight design to it thats nice.

the window just seems more heavy duty.

the Vytex spacer and glass was the exact same as okna.

the one thing the dealer/ salesman seemed to push was the fact that Vytex windows edge delete all their glass which ensures the glass seals better. He spent about 10 minutes explaining edge deletion. from the research i did on that particular subject, it seems to be a good idea.

thats what a really meant when i said you are getting more for your money with the Vytex. I will have them installed in roughly 3 weeks. Im excited about it, ive been putting off this window project since we moved in 3 years ago.

Thanks for clarifying flyerguy. Those are nice features, although most are subjective in terms of providing additional value. The ratings are really a "sum of the parts" of a window, so I would be careful about getting caught up in certain features. I would reiterate though that both are very good. Probably comes down to whether or not you like the window the looks a little "beefier", or the one that has more glass. Can't say that I'd agree with "more for your money", but again, both are good.

Like I said before, they are close enough that I'd probably take a closer look at the dealers in question and installation competency.

What "seems" more heavy duty is easily verified via the Design Pressure number. What is the DP on the Potomac and Fortis? Both are nice units either way. We have used the integrated tilt/latch locks and found them to be fine. Some folks have trouble using them and find them cumbersome, but that is really a personal preference thing.

You can't go wrong with any of the choices really.

Did you ever answer the part about the company? Does this company have a storefront and physical location?

Thank you for the feedback.

the structural rating on the vytex potimac is a 65.

the structural rating on the vytex fortis is a 50.

the okna was also a 50 from what i remember. The vytex just felt stronger to both me and the wife. Again, i could be hyper focusing.

Not structural rating. What is the DP or performance grade. The assigned DP is based on the least significant of the water or structural number. For example, a window might have a structural number equivalent to a 70, but if it fails the water test at what is equivalent to 40, it gets a DP of 40.

The Okna 500 is a DP50 and the 800 is DP60.
From the previous post...does the firm you are considering have a brick and mortar location/storefront?

Ok.

the DP rating on the vytex potomac is 65.

the DP rating on the vytex fortis is a 50.

thats what meant.

Nice home work FG.

Sounds like I better get a storefront.

Very funny Todd. The point of the question was based on the earlier disclosure of price. Do you think a company that maintains a storefront and office staff has the same cost of doing business as the company that does not?

it would be advisable if you don't want to be lumped in with the group of contractors that are responsible for over 75% of complaints with the bbb. Its not often that you hear about a contractor with a storefront taking off with someone's money, or walking off a job half way through. I wouldn't buy clothes from a guy out of the back of his truck, I darn sure won't invest thousands of dollars on my home with one.

Fella's. I've been in this business longer than all of you put together. I am a very large window company which you probably heard of.

As far as having a storefront and not walking off with your money; thats simply not true and its a ridiculous thing to say. I know of 3 companies that closed up within the past 2 years alone and are now facing lawsuits. guess what? They all had storefronts.

We have a very small storefront that we mainly use to train our salesman. We really dont rely on customers randomly stopping by especially since we are there only certain days.

If a company has good ratings with the BBB as well as other some others such as angies list, you can get a pretty good idea as to who you are dealing with.

walking away with a customers money is a lot harder to do nowadays and most contractors that do steal never were in business very long , dont have websites, and are usually " all in one" type contractors who claim to do it all. Unlike years ago, if a contractor in my state walks away with your money, the police now get involved. I really dont see it too often.

in my experience, most guys that walk away or never complete a job usually do things like bathroom, kitchen, and basement remodels. Its actually kind of rare with windows. Again, the three window contractors that did go bankrupt all had storefronts. I can name them, but you guys probably know who they are. Dream House was one of them.

finally, my father was a roofer and ran his company for more than 40 years with a great reputaion and he NEVER had a storefront.

Flyer, i am familiar with vytex, they do make a nice window.

Who said that a storefront type company cannot walk off with your money? My question was specifically regarding the price of the window and just a bit more insight to the poster's original question.

GM and Chrysler have also filed for bankruptcy and GM was the largest corporation in the world at one point. Nothing about size or brick and mortar means that you cannot collapse and leave the purchaser high and dry.
That being said, a company that has a presence (and data has borne this out) is less likely to close up shop as compared to a "company" that otherwise can close up shop by changing a cell phone number.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with companies that don't have a physical location and many of the greats start and stay like this, but I am talking about the costs associated with a project and what results in the final totals of running the business.

Are you safer with a company with a location (assuming that BBB and other references are similar), data says that you are.

I'd agree with WoW on the storefront subject. Nobody said that million dollar showroom is necessary, but there is definitely some legitimacy that comes with a business having a brick and mortar location. Can any company close up shop? Sure. As WoW said though, that is far more likely for the hundreds of thousands of pickup truck "contractors" than the much smaller percentage that have a store. In many states including mine, there is no license or training needed to start a contracting business. Do any of these unlicensed "contractors" have stores? Of course not. Nobody is saying that there aren't legitimate businesses that operate from their home, but it is fact that there are many illegitimate business that operate from a home. In an industry that is has a reputation for scam artists and crooks, why is it bad advice to tell consumers a way to weed out a bunch of those? .... and certainly it would not be inaccurate to say that a company with a storefront will probably have a higher price even with the same margin for obvious reasons.

Its also kind of weird to join a conversation with your first post and claim to be a huge successful company while posting anonymously. Not to say it isn't true, but kind of odd...

At the end of the day, the truth of the matter is in proven data.

Homesealed, this isnt my first post. When the garden web changed hands, my user name no longer worked.

Windows on washington, im telling you that in my experience with window specific contractors, those that dont have storefronts are still in business today.

if a window contractor uses one of the better quality windows, that usually means they have pride in what they do and are much less likely to play games. Of course there are exceptions. again, having a storefront could give a homeowner a false sense of security. I know of many that hire subcontractors that arent very skilled and are paid a lower wage.

Also if problems arise, the bigger store front guys dont address the customer issues as quickly as some of the smaller guys. Not saying they all do that but many do.

the three window companies that did suddenly shut their doors and go out of business did in fact have storefronts. Again, my father never had a storefront for his roofing business and my location is basically used for training.

i do see your pount regarding overhead expenses and i fully understand that.

i just think the other poster( fridge) attempted to paint a picture that was very unfair and completely false.

by the way windows washington, are you guys doing the homeshow in maryland?

For what its worth, I have a quote $570 per on the potomacs, same as OP and dealer has a storefront. Full time installers, no subs. But I was told 90% of window dealers in my area use subs. Was told by OKNA dealer they use both. Of the 5 bids I got, all dealers have store fronts.

Sounds like a good deal pepco... Conversation got sidetracked a bit there ;)

My gosh, i never intended my post to stir up so much controversy.

pepco1, our pricing is the same but my contractor does not have a storefront. Its funny that our pricing is the same though. He does have a warehouse where he stores his windows, but thats it. He has been in business for 12 years and has very good ratings on all the review sites. He also seems very knowledgeable. I never really considered choosing a window contractor because he or she had a storefront. Every window contractor who came to see us always brought a sample with them, even the ones with a storefront. There would be no reason for me to go to their store since i saw the samples at my home.

I just think its so easy to research a company today, i just dont see a storefront as being a deal maker for me and i consider myself well educated. Heck, if there was a problem, i can always find them at their house.

i will post my results in a few weeks.

So in a given time period, 3 contractors with store fronts went under. Clearly, it was a big "to-do", as you are very familiar with the situation. In the same time period, how many fly by night contractors went under? Exponentially more. Obviously your father was not a fly by night contractor nor are many others, but the chances of dealing with a deadbeat when the company has a storefront go down dramatically. Period. If you disagree, please provide statistics instead of irrelevant information to pad your own ego. Maybe you are the guy that buys those little cans of pop to make his hands look big. Oh brother. This isn't even a debate.

Yes, would love to see the statistics.

Fridge, its a bit odd that you keep rebutting but thats ok. The fact is this; i know 3 window companies by me that all had storefronts and they all filed for bankroptcy and closed their doors. You seem to know who those 3 companies are.

i cant even think of one window contractor by me who doesnt have a storefront that filed for bankruptcy or went under in the past 10 years, never mind three years.

Ive been doing this for years and can tell you having a storefront means you have a tremendous amount of expenses . That means you need to charge more to your customers and if there is a SLOWDOWN IN THE ECONOMY, those with storefronts will have a much harder time dealing with it due to their expenses opposed to an established company that keeps costs down and can work out of a small warehouse. To me, its absurd for a window company to need a storefront since we need to go see a homeowner in person in order to measure and we always bring our window samples with us. As i said, mine is basically used for training purposes only.

there are plenty of highly rated BBB window contractors that dont use storefronts and are much more reputable than some of the storefront guys you hear all those negative storeies about, the high pressure and sleazy tactics. Those are facts.

lets end this discussion since we meandered way off course.

Slap him in the face, then you want to end it. That's now how it works here partner.

I would love to see statistics as well Todd, but I don't need statistics to tell me something that is logically clear to anyone that isn't trying to be purposefully ignorant.

Example...I don't need a set of statistics to tell me that "People are more active outdoors when the weather is good. This...and more earth shattering news at 11PM news!!".

Nothing about the original inquiry was directed at the reviews of the company either. That is another red herring argument because review sites can be manipulated by folks as well.

Example...If a contractor that is 6 months old but has a good grasp of technology and has his buddies go review him a better contractor than the guy that is old school and has been doing it well for 20 years without a review?

These are all silly questions that folks aren't answering honestly at this point. I am sure that winkster53's personal experience is what it is, but that doesn't make the logical facts now invalid. I have seen several car accidents where folks that weren't wearing seat-belts walked away without injury. Should we all start unbuckling our seat-belts now because of my small sample study observations....? Makes sense by this same deductive process that is being applied here.

My windows contractor who has been in business for 20 years and is authorized by Marvin and Pella, works out of his house. No storefront. No website. He sends me to a local lumber yard that he uses (also for 20 years) so that I can look at windows on display to see which ones I'd like. His wife does the appointments and bookkeeping. His same crew of 3 has been with him for years. He's done great work for me, and I've recommended him to friends. I know this is just one example, but thought I'd mention it.

Great example friedajune. There are excellent guys/companies like that, no doubt. The debate is whether or not they are outnumbered, and dramatically so, by hacks and/or even well intentioned guys that lack the ability to manage a business and therefore leave homeowners in the lurch. I think WoWs seatbelt analogy is perfect. Some people survive crashes in spite of not wearing a seatbelt, few people still actually survive because of the fact that they were not wearing a seatbelt. We can all acknowledge however that they are the minority. Weighing cost vs risk is a very real part of choosing a home improvement contractor, and some folks have a greater appetite for risk than others.

+1 friedajune.

A storefront is absolutely no indication of honor or ethics. We are just talking about the averages here and the simple fact of the matter is that a business with a brick and mortar location has far more encumbrances to just changing their identity and opening back up as another company with no warranty obligations.

Windows washington, fridge, and homeseal are going to just keep defending their idea because they have storefronts. My gosh, there are 35 posts when the OP only wanted advice on vytex windows which we all agree is a very good product.

again, 3 large companies with storefronts closd their doors and filed for bankruptcy while not one bbb rated window contractor without a storefront did in the past 10 years by me. Storefronts cost more money to operate and those costs are passed on to the end consumer.

by the way, a contractor who is licensed with the state cannot just file for bankruptcy and then open up under a new name. He will have a very hard time getting a new license. These are new inititiatives set forth by state governments in order to prevent fraud. Todays consumers are much more protected. However, its up to the consumer to make sure their contractor is properly licensed and in good standing with the bbb.

lets see another long winded response by these guys.

Says the guy that keeps responding and took the conversation off course in the first place, lol.

Why would companies have a storefront then? The answer is to better serve their clients. When someone is spending 4,5, even six figures, it is advisable to visit the place of business that you are handing that type of money over to, and also see full size working samples of what you are buying to ensure that its what you want and expect.

Youve not refuted any of the points made previously winkster. The hallmark of a losing argument is to resort to questioning the opposing party's motivation, and by trying to sneak out that back door after throwing that last Hail Mary.

Winkster- i think the guys are trying to say that those "fly by night" contractors that claim to be jack of all trades and always seem to be recommended by friends and family are more likey to be problematic. I see guys like this all the time and they are always the cheapest guy and of course perform the cheapest quality installations. Trust me, i see it all the time. These guys dont have a warehouse and usually are more concerned with alomony payments and dui surcharges than performing quality work.

Hey

im in full agreement when it comes to the fly by night contractors you describe. I was referring to the licensed contractor without any kind of storefront who is rated with the bbb and has been in business a while. In my experienece, these licensed contractors without a storefront are at no more of a risk of going bankrupt than a contractor with a storefront. In fact they are less likely because they dont need to worry about all the extra overhead expenses associated with renting a storefront. Again, i use my fathers roofing business as an example, he was in business over 40 years without a storefront.

And I addressed all of your points in details previously. I realize it is human nature to base one's opinion on personal experience. Doesn't change observable data and facts though. That is great about your father as I stated previously, there are a ton of honorable and ethical contractors that do not have storefront. Nothing about a location means that you have ethics. I am just talking about the averages and the numbers is all.

My original point about the inquiry, as stated previously, was merely to get insight into the pricing question. Do you not agree that a company without the expense of a location and formal office staff has a lesser operating expense?

You are kind of skating around the facts by continiung to support your showroom agenda. The statistics clearly support the showroom guys as having a much harder time when the economy slows down than the licensed window contractors that dont have the additional costs of a showroom.

There are far too many companies with storefronts that go bankrupt, thats just reality. The extra costs associated with rent and other expenses are sometimes too much for a company to handle sometimes. In fact, i am a member of my local chamber commerce and this year alone, 2 companies with storefronts closed their doors. Granted, one was a kitchen remodeler and the other was a general contractor. They just couldnt afford the rent and were'nt able to pay their suppliers. Its too bad because they were hard working guys.

As i said, there were 3 rather large window contractors that went bankrupt in the past 3 years and they all had storefronts.

Not one single Licensed window contractor without a storefront had to resort to closing up shop. Remember, i am talking about licensed contractors, not the fly by nighters you are referring to.

Renting a storefront costs anywhere between $4000 and $5000 per month, and thats a smaller one. The customers are the ones that have to pay the extra cost in order for the " storefront contractor" to afford his rent. This doesnt even include the extra expenses such as utilities. What do you think happens to these " storefront contractors" when the economy slows down? How can they afford those extra expenses associated with a storefront? Some can withstand it but many cant. The licensed contractor without the storefront can weather the storm much easier.

even if someone owns their building, they still pay taxes on the property and mortgage payments.

also, all those high pressure, sleazy window contractors all have storefronts. In fact, you mention a few.

to be fair, most companies with storefronts dont go bankrupt and most licensed window contractors will never go bankrupt. You kind of came across as painting a biased picture to support your own agenda as i stated earler.

Any reputable licensed contractor without a storefront isnt going to just close up shop because he has a few bad customers. These guys spent years building their reputations and business. A fly by nighter thats the jack of all trades type guy may. Certainly not the licensed window pro. At least in my experience as a 20 year member of the chamber of commerce.

lets end this, you seem like a nice guy who runs a nice business. We can agree to disagree on this one.

The storefront cost will greatly vary by many factors which can make things difficult to pinpoint.

many factors to consider, these are a few. Location of store, is the building paid for how much was it, was it inherited,is it rented. Is the staff hired ,family,sub contractors salary or commission?

This is my own personal experience based on me. I have shop this allows me to buy direct which pays shop in savings. If I chose I could convert some of my space to office or I could rent office space at my shop starting at about $300 per month. I have no sales staff and my wife helps with books. I have 4 employees which in

My opinion is more expensive and more hassle than subs. I also use subs as needed to keep on schedule. I do have a friend with a store front who took over fathers business, building paid for no employees as another example which would make it hard do compare cost. Some of my competitors are franchises they typically have small offices with warehouse space, commissioned staff if any and work is performed by subcontractors and of course they have a franchise fee to pay.

Who is skating around facts and who has an agenda? I have said...for about the 10th time now...that a showroom or physical location is ZERO (I am going to bold the sections that seem to get missed) indication of company morals, ethics, or job quality. What I have said, and continue to say, is that a physical location will add to the cost of a job vs. the contractor that does not have one or an accompanying staff. A physical location also places encumbrances in the way of being able to close up shop and promptly re-open as another entity. If you are comparing the rate of closures between that of contractors that have no physical location vs. those that do...you will find that the contractor with the physical location closes up shop at a rate that is less than that of the non brick and mortar contractor.

This can be for multiple reasons. Some of the more common ones are:

1. Age and maturity of business. Many shops (especially in the exteriors business) do not open with a location. They build a base and then open a storefront.
2. More organized chain of command and HR structure to manage and staff the physical location.
3. Formalized insurance corporate structure. If you are going to have a physical location, you are going to need to maintain insurance on it for a multitude of things (liability, workman's comp, accident). If you contrast this to the sole proprietor that is not required, in many states, to maintain any insurances.
4. Many shops that open a location invest significant dollars in either the construction of fit up of a location. This is not something that they are going to just close up if they have a bad customer or some warranty liabilities that they are trying to skirt on. Contrast that with the contractor that is working off of his cellphone and truck alone.

There are a myriad of great contractors that do not maintain a showroom or location. I have a bunch of friends in the industry that don't have a shop and I do not hesitate to recommend them to work with my own customers and on my own home. A showroom is no indication or guarantee of the quality of work and a customer should always vet their contractor via multiple sources if they don't otherwise have a reference on a particular contractor.

All of that being said, more contractors close up shop and can much more easily do so, when the do not have a physical location. That is what was being discussed previously and despite a poster's PERSONAL experiences, one person's experiences do not define the sum total of the facts. Equating one's personal experience as gospel on a subject matter is the definition of SKIRTING the facts.

I have nothing but the highest regards for all of the posters in this thread. Let me make that clear, but the facts are what the facts are and that is what we are debating here.

Windows on Washington, you do make some good points and i agree with you.

at first it did seem as if you were being biased. I apologize.

have a happy easter.

No apology necessary my friend. It is very easy to get conversations conflated in these forums. No matter, you have nothing to apologize for. Nothing like a healthy debate of ideas.

Happy Easter to you and yours. Fantastic day in history.