This could be a problem with too much flexing in the subfloor, rather than an improper tiling and grout job per se. If that is the cause, the discussion over whose responsibility that is will be challenging...

The floor feels pretty solid, no movement or bounce at all.

I know where I'd like to put caulk in the builder.

Are there proper expansion joints in the field (if large enough) and around the complete perimeter?

Yes, perimeter joints, no expansion joints. Not big enough.

Did they use spacers when they were installing it? I'm not sure why you would have grout joints of varying sizes if spacers were used.

Other people do use 1/16 grout spacing against manufacturer's recommendations without grout failure issues. I used 1/16 inch grout joints with regular Customs non-sanded grout in my kitchen and have had no problems at all with grout failure and the floor is a few years old (Daltile porcelain). While my grout spacing is not recommended by Dal, it does fall within the correct specs for the grout used (minimum 1/16 inch).

In any case, don't let the builder "remedy" the situation with caulk in the joints!!

No, spacers were not used. I have measured the joints, and they range from 1mm to 3mm with most being 1.5mm and only a few being 3mm. 1/16” =1.59mm

This is the measurement of the grout showing, the actual grout joint is thinner.

No, we will not accept the caulk remedy! But we are currently unable to find a grout that will hold, even in the short term.

Totally apart from the aesthetics of inconsistent size grout lines, the failure to use spacers in this situation brings into serious question the competence of the tile contractor.

Master installers don't need no steenken spacers. I am worried there is movement which is causing the cracking. Has the deflection of the framing been checked?

I've recently had a couple of precision tile jobs done by highly regarded tilers and they used spacers. I know you are a pro, but to me spacers are the conservative approach I want to see. And in any case, this does not appear to be the work of a master installer :-)

I completely agree with you on floor deflection: to a layman, a floor may seem sturdy, but still not be within floor deflection guidelines or specs.

It is certainly possible that there is movement below the tile causing the problem, but I’m not sure how to check for that. The floor seems sturdy, no movement detected.

It is most definitely NOT the work of a master craftsman! All the tile work in our new house has cosmetic problems of one type or another, this is just the worst of it. Keep in mind that the grout is not cracking, it is popping out and crumbling. What’s left in these (widespread) areas are empty grout joints that are 1 - 1.5mm wide and pretty shallow.

Since we have grout popping out of a brand new installation and a suggested remedy of caulking over the problem, my guess is that we aren't talking about a "Master Installer." In any case, unless you can install tile with consistent spacing, you probably need to use spacers.

Not saying that improper spacing is the issue. I've seen some minuscule grout joints that can still hold grout without it popping up. What is under the tile ... (slab?)? If you tap on the tiles, do they sound hollow?

Anyway, what’s to be done about it? Would an epoxy grout stay in, or are we out of options and need to rip this out?

No, not slab. It’s on second floor, wood subfloor plus whatever they put down as underlayment.

What did they put down as underlayment? Did you tap on the tiles to see if they sound hollow?

No, tiles do not sound hollow.

The same installer put different tile down in another room on the second floor. Not a rectified tile, just under 1/8” joint, no problems with grout coming out. I assume the floor prep was the same.

If the tiles aren't hollow, I'm inclined to agree with the others that there is movement occurring there. Is this a brand new house?

What should be done to correct it?

The house was completed last May.

The grout starting popping out soon after. We had the first go around with removing old grout and replacing it (Polyblend non sanded) in August. Starting popping out again within a few weeks. And on it goes...

The grout is cracking due to movement. The movement is most likely from joist deflection below industry standard, A plumber who hacked a joist or three, an HVAC installer who hacked a joist, a cracked or broken joist, a missing joist, missing cross bracing which allowed a joist to tilt enough to become ineffective, plywood not properly attached, plywood of poor grade, plywood of poor quality.

Without destructive demolition, there is no way to know the exact cause.

Well it appears then that the outcome is the same regardless of cause: the tile needs to be removed, check issues that may cause movement, and re-install new tile with better installation skills.

Exactly what my builder does not want to do.

If they used cement board underneath the tile, find out if they put thinset between the cement board and the subfloor and then used fasteners to secure the cement board to the subfloor.

Some installer skip the thinset and simply lay the cement board on the subfloor and fasten it down. Not using thinset between the cement board and the subfloor can cause small amounts of vertical movement in the floor, causing grout to crack.

I'm hesitant to say that's your problem because of the size of your tiles.

It can simply be the lack of grout volume in the joints that is causing the issue.

If there is a floor vent you might be able to see the floor layers.

I agree with the other pro's here....

There is more issues than the grout size as this shouldn't really make a difference within normal parameter, IE the sizes you have described.

Movement is the issue. Could be a poor substrate behind the tile, framing movement not enough fixing, not enough adhesive on the tiles etc etc. Is there a membrane behind the tiles?, not knowing were these are of course.

The best solution would be to rip it off start again, starting with the substrate go from there.

If this is not a solution you/he would like then silicon (caulking) would be the best solution. This will allow for the movement and not effect the integrity. the same as is done for control joints change of direction etc.

If it happened on one of my jobs it would be a no brainer... start again.Although it wouldn't happen :) do it once do it right.

That is a big job to do right, only making assumption on how big the job is.

Good luck

No one is pushing enough silicone into a 1/32" gap to function. It can't be done.

"If this is not a solution you/he would like then silicon (caulking) would be the best solution."

That just sounds like a band aid, not a cure. "Best solution" for the builder maybe, but not for the homeowner.

"If it happened on one of my jobs it would be a no brainer... start again."

I think that's what the Homeowner is hoping for.

Thanks for all the input. As it is, the builder is loathe to spend the money to re-do it, plus he is running out the clock on our warranty. So next step he insists on is having a 4th go at thoroughly removing the grout and re-grouting. With same non-sanded as before. I’m not sure how it’s going to work this time around. It seemed like the original tiling crew thought it might be a lost cause, so builder called in another contractor. I’m doubtful, but I have no choice but to let this play out.

If you don't get anywhere with him, assuming he's a member of a professional group, I'm guessing he is when talking about warranties. tell them whats going one or lay a complaint. The warranty would be void anyway if he hasn't done the job properly.

I'm sure he will fix it asap as he wont want the bad publicity and should have done it right the first time, work ethic's and all that.

That's why you employee a professional to do the job to ensure its done to standard and protects your investment.

Good luke

Well, be sure and take detailed pics of the problem, in case the warranty does run out and you still have a problem requiring court action. You really need to be able to document what they "fixed" and how it failed. Good luck; I hope he makes it right.

Re doing with the same non sanded grout would just be a total waste. I would use Mapei Kerapoxy grout. (It's all I ever use and never had a grout adhesion issue- granted I don't skimp on any previous installation steps either) Although, based upon the narrative I doubt they know how to use it, and an improper application would not be a simple scrape out. For example, removing a blotch of epoxy grout left on the surface of a tile to harden is more apt to damage the tile first, where as a blotch of masonry grout can be scrubbed off with very little effort. That said, if there's a problem with the epoxy grout staying put (assuming the job is performed properly) then you know for certain it's a major deflection issue in the floor system and or preparation. My opinion is that only the strength of an epoxy grout could get you a chance of using the tile that is in place. Best of luck.

He is only costing himself more money, sending good after bad. It will eventually all come out an be redone on his dime so............And as pointed out the expiration of the warranty doesn't mean a thing if the work is garbage to begin with, there is no warranty he fixes it until he either gets it right, goes out of business or you hire someone else to fix his mess.

Thanks, I agree with the opinions posted. I think this is just a waste of time and his resources.

I doubt his tiling crew can do a decent job with epoxy, I know it’s tricky. I know it was considered but they backed off the idea, and maybe that’s because they knew it would not be worth their extra time and frustration.

With the warranty, it is a standard home warranty required by TX law that builders extend to homeowners. We are dealing with a home builder on a semi custom home, who subs out the work. We are not dealing with the tiling contractor directly, he/they report to the builder. So no leverage there.

We can pursue a warranty claim but the wording is clear that it expires after one year and the builder is trying to stretch out these stupid fixes until then, it seems. We have all sorts of photos and documentation and plan on submitting an official claim with warranty company before it expires. But all it assures is that they will mediate a solution, then next step is arbitration. With either arbitration or litigation it’s a costly affair, more than the cost of just re-doing this on our own dime. So everything is in the builder’s favor. Maybe he just doesn’t care about delivering a quality product, repeat business or his reputation.

"Maybe he just doesn’t care about delivering a quality product, repeat business or his reputation."

Unfortunately there is probably more truth in that statement then you want to believe.

He probably feels like his reputation won't suffer one bit. While plenty of people come to this forum with issues about poor quality and workmanship, very few of those people actually mention the name of the contractor or the name of the company.

If you have documentation that you've been pursuing the problem from before the warranty was up and it still wasn't fixed to your satisfaction, then even after the warranty runs out, he is still on the hook.

Do you have pictures?

Here are example photos.

Can you get right up close with the camera ?

I'm also troubled by the discoloration showing up in the grout in that first photo. If that is being drawn up from within it may suggest problems with the waterproofing around the shower.

After looking at these photos it is worse than described.

I agree with Bressier Tile and Stone about the shower, that CAN be the first sign of a leaking shower and in my experience was the last sign of rotten framing etc however the extent want be known until the tiles are removed

Last time I saw that, almost exactly the same, the attached photo was the result. The cause was the membrane wasn't installed properly and leaked. The water damage went into the hall and bedroom. This was in a house inspection I did for a client. the tiling was 3 yrs old, Scary to see how much damage was done in a short time.

You need to put in a warranty claim now that way it is lodged for future if communication breaks down.

You paid good money for a new bathroom that shouldn't have flaws like this.

Update: grout came out of some more areas on the floor and we noticed in these areas that when putting weight near the grout line that there was the sound of movement, a slight creak and crunch sound. So the builder will not be able to ignore this.

Apparently no Hardi board, they put down a “membrane” and maybe this was done incorrectly.

IMO, all contact with the builder should be done via email so that you have a record of the problem being disclosed and discussed before the warranty expires.

Do you have any idea what type of membrane was used? Usually most failures I've run across on plywood subfloors are from improperly installed cement board, but it's possible to screw up any kind of underlayment.

I sounds like the grout's definitely coming loose from deflection of the floor and/or improperly installed underlayment or just plain improper installation. My guess is the thinset coverage under the tiles is inadequate as well.

As others have said, document document document. Before all is said and done, you may need a new bathroom, unfortunately.