What's going on? Can't say without knowing how they were made. Several different ways to make pickles and 100's of different recipes. So what's the recipe and instructions used.

Dave

I'm not sure what the exact recipes are, it's been like this for the last 20 years, across probably 20 different recipes. Lot's of different kosher dill ones obtained from the net that are just salt, others with vinegar, it doesn't seem to matter which one is used.

Maybe I should of asked if this is just normal.

No, I don't think it is normal. I have jars of pickles that are several year sold - 2010 I think is the oldest currently open - and they are fine. Those are quick pack dills but I also have jars of fermented dills that are 3 years old still good as well. They were processed in a BWB after fermenting of course.

So 2 possibilities comes to mind: (1) using regular salt rather than canning salt can cause the brine to go cloudy because of the additives it contains, or (2) insufficient vinegar in amount or strength was used and as the pH rises over time bacteria can develop, taste changes, and brine gets cloudy.

If all her recipes are fermented pickles only then the problem is with the fermenting process used. Insufficient salt used is the most common cause, old or contaminated spices, not fully fermented, not BWB processed when finished, overly warm temps during the fermenting process or during storage.

NCHFP provides a chart about the common pickle problems you might want to check: http://nchfp.uga.edu/how/can_06/pickleproblems.html

With all kinds of pickles there are tested and approved recipes that work. But there are also all sorts of untested, even unsafe recipes floating around old cookbooks and family recipe boxes that need to be tossed.

Dave

I'd say most of the batches she's ever done have been fermented pickles, but not entirely sure what you mean, because wont pickles automatically start the fermentation process once you add salt? She's always blamed the water, and or inability to have a cold cellar. When you say "not BWB processed when finished" Do you mean a process that involves fermenting the pickles first then canning?

All the recipes she has done involves the same process, some with vinegar, some without though, and of course different ratios. Basically boil the brine then added to the jars once the brine has cooled. She's always used the same brand of pickling/canning salt which works fine for other non cucumber related canning recipes.

After looking at that chart I'm leaning to minerals being present in the water or pickling spices and dill being left in the jars.

Ok I just realized that her bread and butter pickles are always good, and don't seem to go through this over fermenting process, like her dills do. Maybe this will narrow the problem down. I believe it's because the bread and butter pickles involve a process where you boil the pickles in the brine, which essentially is stopping or slowing the fermentation process, on the other hand, when she does dills, she waits for the brine to cool before adding it to the jars, which I just noticed, a lot of recipes are calling for the brine to be poured hot. Could this be it?

" wont pickles automatically start the fermentation process once you add salt?"

Not at all. Which is what makes me think we have a mis-communication problem about the various ways of making pickles.

Different Types of Pickled Foods

Fermentation, which requires a very specific ratio of salt to produce and often uses minimal or small amounts of fresh water (not hot), is only one method of making pickles. And it is likely the least used method for making pickles at home. Other methods of pickling also use some salt but it is in smaller amounts and used for flavoring only, not fermentation.

And yes, once fermented, unless they are "canned" after the fermentation is done, they have a very short life in storage. Refrigerator storage is required if not canned and even then the quality and safety life span is approx. 6 months depending on several other variables, especially the ratio of salt to food that was used.

From the current guidelines: "Fully fermented pickles may be stored in the original container for about 4 to 6 months, provided they are refrigerated and surface scum and molds are removed regularly."

So we really need to know how she makes these pickles.

Dave

Ok, there's so many recipes that she tried over the years, keep in mind, the end result is always the same, and that they seem to over ferment and develop different flavors over time, I'm talking about strictly canned pickles, and not quick fridge pickles that only last a few months.

Obviously I can't direct you to every recipe ever made but we did try this recipe here, 2 years ago for instance, which is very indicative of the recipes she's tried, except ratios obviously change. This one here uses quite a bit of vinegar and pickling spice compared to other recipes she's done.

These particular pickles were good till around the 6 month mark until they started to taste very vinegary and would over ferment with time. They would gradually get softer over time and I'd imagine loose most crunch by year 2 and tasted even more vinegary, and the flavors would just keep concentrating, and more powerful undesired pickling spice flavors would take over, and that good dill pickle taste would be lost. Thanks for your help. Keep in mind, this is the only recipe tried that ever tasted too vinegary though, and the name stuck out in my head, it's just an example.

Ok lots of problems with that recipe. First it isn't a fermented pickle. Waayy too much vinegar for any fermentation to take place because of the acidic pH.

It is what is called a quick-pack recipe and a problem one because they are never actually canned, merely partially pasteurized and even that for too little time. Canning requires the jars be completely submerged in water - 2" over the top of the jars and actively boiled for 10-15 mins.

So the seal on the jars in that recipe are not vacuum seals and air remains trapped in the jars to allow for bacterial growth. Plus the jars are way over-packed with cukes so the brine in the jars is minimal and takes a long time to penetrate the cukes. Plus it calls for whole cukes with no trimmed ends - more bacteria. The dill is not actively washed ("just shake off the bugs"???) so more bacteria.

So yes, for any pickles made that way you are lucky to get 6 months eating out of them.

Compare to the recipe you posted. This is one of the approved recipes for fermented dill pickles.

This is one of the approved recipes for quick-pack dill pickles.

Dave

She uses this canning procedure regardless of the recipe here. The "Low-Temperature Pasteurization Treatment" method. Never cans fermented pickles. Always cans cucumbers with the "Quick Fresh-Pack Dill Pickle method. Blossom ends always cut off regardless of the recipe. Everything would be washed of course, including the dill, you might be reading into that recipe a little too far :)

Here's the ratios of the recipe you provided crossed with the blue ribbon ones, for reference.

Blue Ribbon
8 1⁄2 cups water
2 1⁄4 cups white vinegar
1⁄2 cup pickling salt

Yours
8 cups water
6 cup vinegar (5 percent)
1/2 cup salt
¼ cup sugar

Unless I converted something wrong, your recipe that you linked to actually contains a higher vinegar to water ratio, and like you said probably wouldn't undergo any fermentation process. We might be having confusion over the term "fermentation". how about continue to over pickle? Have you used this specific recipe?

Yes that is the standard pasteurization instructions. Very different from those in the recipe you linked. It isn't considered the ideal method because it is difficult to do accurately and the long heat exposure. But it is ok to do IF the directions are followed in detail. Fully submerged jars, thermometer used, etc.

Yes the approved recipe does have a higher ratio of vinegar to water. That's a safety factor as the minimum approved ratio of vinegar to water is 1:1 because of all the water in the cukes themselves dilutes the vinegar even more and because pH rises over time. That's why I said the Blue Ribbon recipe would be considered very unsafe and very prone to bacterial growth - its pH is too high, too alkaline, and they would have a very short shelf life before taste and appearance go bad.

Fermentation isn't relevant. Fermentation consists of nothing but salt, cukes, and some water. If it contains vinegar it is a quick pack recipe and no fermentation is involved.

So if you mean her pickles are too vinegary tasting that is corrected in the approved recipe by the sugar addition. But if you mean her pickles taste off, taking on new flavors you said, and the brine turns cloudy then that is because there wasn't enough vinegar to begin with and as time passes the pH rises and bacteria begins to grow changing the flavor and the appearance.

Honestly the bottom line is that if one doesn't use one of the tested and approved recipes then both quality and safely are compromised. The solution is simple - use the tested recipes.

Dave

We'll have to try it out. The vinegar, lowers the ph lessening the chance of harmful bacterial growth and has nothing to do with the fermentation process like you said. I'm guessing with enough vinegar added, it could stop the natural fermentation process that occurs with the cucumber, salt, and bacteria reaction, or at the least slow it down. I can taste the difference between a fermented pickle and a vinegar one that hasn't really undergone any fermentation, and I gotta say some recipes indeed fermented. Was really hard to tell if it occurred with the blue ribbon ones because they were so vinegary, and like you said the sugar balances out that vinegar, which is probably what the blue ribbon one is missing, that and possibly not enough vinegar.

My personal take on this all now is that without enough vinegar added, they are actually undergoing a fermentation process, and the trick is to add enough vinegar so that the fermentation wont occur, or is slowed down, which results in a different tasting pickle, but stops the fermentation process all together, and could potentially last longer. A proper canning technique would also kill all bacteria, and they wouldn't undergo any fermentation either, I'd imagine.

1 thing about that recipe you linked to, is they did another step, which is they let it set in salt water to draw out the extra moisture, which would help keep them crispier and also keep the ph down from any water in the pickles being released over time as they aged, that does seem like an excessive amount of vinegar tho, you only need to add so much before it becomes acidic, after that threshold is met, I'm not really sure what it's doing other then flavoring them.

Next time I open a jar of pickles I'll test the ph levels and see if their in a harmful area, they aren't spoiling tho, it's just like I said, they are over fermenting or over pickling and taking on too much flavors as they age. Another thing I'm curious about now, is if cucumbers can still ferment, in an acidic ph range, because if that's the case, there's nothing really stopping it from occurring, other then using a proper canning technique that ensures everything is killed. Actually I just checked, and the bacteria associated with cucumber fermentation is apparently tolerant to the acidic ph range, so the fermentation process theoretically could still occur despite the ratio of vinegar used. Ph range just gets the pickles out of the harmful bacterial zone, doesn't actually stop the fermentation process, I guess a proper canning technique would help right, Well I think this thread is solved. Thanks for your help.