i don't have most of those appliances, but I could live without a MW in any way shape or form. You could reheat better in a CS. Try the countertop but I wouldn't even use that anymore. It will probably wind up in the trash

try to envision what you would use it for - reheat coffee and popcorn as you said. You would have to do a lot of that to justify a MW

I can't say whether the cs will work as well as a microwave, but I personally wouldn't put a microwave (or a Breville for that matter) on the counter in a "high end kitchen renovation".

web, that's kind of what i was thinking. sj, that is what i'm worried about. where would you put a toaster oven (i prefer this to a regular toaster) and a microwave? i could do a built in microwave but it doesn't really match the CSO or oven, so i was thinking of making a counterspace in the pantry (which is a reach-in, not a walk-in) or doing some sort of appliance garage.

There are some things you can do in a combi-steam as well or better than in a microwave, but they're things you could do in any oven as well or better than in a microwave. The biggest one is reheating food, but people use the microwave because it's fast, not because it's better. The combi- will warm up faster than a bigger oven, but you could approximate the effect in any oven using the same temperature and a dish of water next to your plate of food.

I use my Gaggenau combi-steam to heat up a made up plate (meat, veg, etc., all at once), or to heat up several portions in a baking dish. What the microwave is good for is heating a single portion of a single food. E.g., a not too big sandwich, a bowl of soup or pasta, a serving of chicken (if it's a very good microwave and heats very evenly, so probably not most countertop models), even two enchiladas, but that's stretching the abilities for even warming. I would argue that it's terrible for heating coffee because I'm persnickety, but many people find it just fine. It makes good popcorn. :) A microwave really shines for things like defrosting a big block of soup, or melting too small an amount of butter to use a small pot on the stove for, and easier than putting one's dish in water in the pot.

What the combi-steam could easily do for you, however, is eliminate the need for the toaster oven, unless you're using it to make toast. I have a toaster oven that lives in a drawer for small appliances and comes out just for making toast out of homemade breads.

Some folks need microwave ovens, but if you are asking if you need a microwave, you don't.

Toaster ovens like the Breville Smart Oven (BSO) pretty much have to sit out on a counter for heat and ventilation reasons.

Those requirements for a small microwave are much more modest, so you could put it in your reach-in pantry. Might want to look at the GE Spacemaker line. Only about 12-inches deep and can be hung under a shelf as well as placed on top of one.

Ghkim, I recommend putting a small microwave in the pantry. That is what I did. I use the microwave only to heat up a bowl of soup, heat coffee and tea, or heat a small plate of food. I decided not to take up valuable counter space or cabinet space for a microwave. I have the Wolf countertop oven that I use as a second oven and toaster that works very well. That is on my counter as I use it frequently.

I do think frequency of use is an important part of the equation. I have a toaster, but it's used only once a week so we keep it in a drawer when not in use.

Are you planning on ever selling this home? If no, do what you want. If yes, make provision for a microwave. Putting it in the pantry is an acceptable solution. Just make sure you provide a dedicated electrical circuit for the microwave.

I would want a microwave. I use them for reheating, defrosting and small cooking pretty much every day.

I didn't do a built in unit in my last renovation. I created a bay in my cabinetry for the counter top size unit to slide in. When it dies, I will just replace it with another slide in unit. You could even do the venerable appliance garage for the microwave. Not everything has to be built-in.

I am assuming that the 36" range is indeed a range with an oven. Do you really need another 30" convection oven and a combi steam? Have you considered the Miele Speed Oven which is a microwave and a convection/conventional oven instead of the 30" oven. I have the Miele 30" convection/combi steam/speed ovens and find they are more than sufficient and I do cook a lot. I use the speed oven 95% as a conventional overn rather then a microwave. Speed cooking is not needed at this point in my life. The toaster oven is in the pantry used only for toast and top brown bagels. Both combi and speed ovens are 24" and would give you more counter space.

I have virtually the same set-up as what you describe, except Wolf appliances. Stuck a small microwave inexpensive inside the pantry and have NO regrets about it.

sorry! kimg, its a 36" rangetop. i definitely do not need two full sized convection ovens. do you find that you ever use your 30" convection oven if you have the combi steam and speed ovens? the only thing keeping me from getting the speed oven is that i feel like if i already have a convection oven and a combi steam, then i have no further use for another oven, so the convection part of the speed oven is overkill for me.

homechef, that's a good point - i do plan on selling the home at some point but hopefully not for 10-15 years. at that point i'm guessing that whatever microwave i have (as well as all the other appliances) will be seriously outdated, so i assumed i'd have to do another renovation around then.

charon - any regrets going with the small microwave in the pantry?

pillog - thats a great point about the toaster. i never thought of the redundancy with the steam oven. need to rethink this.

jw - thanks for the suggestion, i will need to take a look at the ge microwave!

I use my MW once a day - just to heat milk for coffee. I can't stand cold milk in hot coffee. 30-45 seconds once a day. I can't do without it. So that is my MW's raison d'être. Occasionally I start a baked potato in the MW to speed things up. I keep the MW on a shelf in my pantry. The shelf is a bit higher than waist-level which is perfect (no bending and peering down, and no reaching up). If you have a pantry, I recommend you invest $120 for a countertop MW, and more of an investment to get an electric outlet in there. I am happy I have the flexibility and have zero regrets.

I have a Gaggenau combi-steam and 30" convection/regular oven and a large Advantium Pro speed oven. I use all three every week. My need for speed had greatly lessened by the time my kitchen was finished, so I don't use the speed settings that much, but when I have the whole family (a couple dozen, at least), having three ovens is very useful. Immersion sous vide is the only thing that has altered that any.

That doesn't mean you need them. I'd think that the two ovens plus a small microwave and a toaster would be sufficient for most people.

I do not have any regrets going with a small microwave in the pantry. My DH and I think the location works well for our needs. I have a small kitchen so placing a microwave in the pantry saved cabinet space. I was able to use wall space for a CSO and a warming drawer. I have a 30 inch duel fuel range.

Do you use a microwave? Some people don't. If not, don't get one.

i do use a microwave a lot right now. i use it to reheat leftovers (which i'm hoping i'll be able to do in the CSO). but the other things i will need to continue to use it for are popping popcorn, heating up a cup of coffee (i think for soup i might just do it on the rangetop), and melting butter. so i think i definitely need one but i don't think it will get a ton of use. it certainly would be more convenient to have a built in one but i'm hesitant to pay 1500$ for a built in miele microwave. the option exists to get a different brand but all the other built ins (which would be next to it) are miele so from an aesthetic standpoint, it makes sense to get a miele.

Ghkim,

I would agree that you want at least one large oven in your kitchen. I do use my 30" oven still for cookies (pans do not fit in the CSO), layer cakes, turkey, homemade pizzas (easier to load in a large oven) and when I need a third oven. With the two of us here most of the time - we use the CSO the most. It is a dream for re-heating - you will be very pleased. It does take more time so plan that into your meal prep. I also use the steam feature for veggies, rice, risotto, eggs, etc. If I need a second oven then we use the speed oven. I debated like yourself about how to work a microwave that I don't use more than a few seonds a day at the most into the design. I didn't want to pay $1000+ for a built in that would get occasional use. I am not fond of a drawer design. My KD and builder felt putting a countertop unit behind closed doors in a cabinet or in our pantry was not the best route to be consistent with other homes at a similar price point in the area (resell value). I bit the bullet and splurged on the speed oven and for us it was the right decision.

Probably no one can tell you if you need a microwave. It's a decision between you and your god(s).

We have one because DW like to warm the milk for her coffee in it. Left to my own devices, I wouldn't have one. I never use the one we have. Installing one because you think that others might expect you to nave one or because you think a kitchen "ought" to have one is ... odd.

agreed, rwiegand, no can really tell me if i need one or one. i'm just looking for guidance, especially from people who went through a similar decision (ie, do you start using the microwave less when you get a cso), since i have no experience with a kitchen renovation and no experience yet with a CSO.

kimg, that is exactly the decision i'm going to have to make! i am also considering the speed oven (if i'm going to spend 1500, why not spend 200??). do you have a toaster oven as well?

I do have my old toaster oven in my pantry for occasional toast and my family still uses it to top brown a bagel. They are a little intimidated by all the fancy technology/interface. They would prefer to just hit broil. I rarely use the micro now to reheat food. Only on an occasion where the amount is very small or where I don't want to do another cycle - like go from combi mode to full steam in the CSO for a small amount of veggies or when food is in a serving dish that can't into the oven. I use the micro to heat water and zap a small amount of food. We aren't big popcorn people. I melt butter/chocolate now on the induction. The speed oven is used mainly as my second oven after the CSO. Both can hold my largest casseroles and heat up quickly.

I am a big popcorn person and would never make it anyway other than on my gas cooktop, oil popped. Yum.

Reheated coffee=yuck.

Warm milk for coffee? This takes up a lot less space and $$:

I grew up with a microwave and had a small one at university, but have never bought one as an adult and have never missed it.

So, could you do with out one--if you are like my household (family of 4, 2 kids, 2 adults): yes, absolutely.

Big smile, here. No one in my family is big on popcorn (we only have it once every few months), and it's only the microwaved paper bags that make popcorn something for home consumption at all. Although I can perceive the difference between perfect popcorn (very hard to get and not something I've ever achieved on my own), and the MW stuff, the MW gives good enough for the purpose. And the popcorn sensor on the Advantium is awesome!

Temporary hijack for which I apologize in advance but still plunge ahead :- O (If I can save someone somewhere reading this from microwave popcorn it will be worth living with reputation as a hijacker. I will wear the scarlet H. LOL)

LOL pillog-- in university, we often considered stirring broccoli into the mac and cheese from a box cooking . But our run down rental house in West Philly had an ancient gas range and my roommate took a sharpie to it and marked the perfect setting for making oil popped popcorn. Med-med high flame. That was the one marking on our cooktop--the sharpie mark for the popcorn setting. Kind of like the precursor to the 'popcorn' button on a microwave?? Anytime we had to stay up all night writing papers, we ate a hell of a lot of popcorn!

It is very easy--just put enough oil on the bottom of the pan (heavy bottom large pot , cover the entire bottom of the pot well and then some), throw in some Orville Redenbacher kernels, tip pan from side to side to roll kernels around in the oil to coat them all in oil before cooking, put a lid on, turn heat to the sharpie marking. :) Take off when popping sounds slows to almost nothing (don't check! listen for popping), don't let it burn. Immediately transfer to big bowl and salt amply (fine grained salt best)! Your movies never tasted better.

Oh, and ghkim, while I don't miss having a microwave, I miss not having a CSO (lol, this is sort of tongue in cheek, because I've never had one), and am also planning to get a Miele CSO in upcoming new kitchen. Can't wait! Ours will also be a high end kitchen, so if you decide to go without microwave, yours will not be the only one without a builtin. I also recently toured a beautiful custom home (had been on the cover of our national newspaper's life section) that had a gorgeous kitchen with Wolf range, 2 more wall ovens, huge Subzero, separate wine fridge,superauto coffee maker, the works, but no microwave. You wouldn't be the only one. (Architects don't like them. LOL)

Lapsangtea,

I know how to make popcorn on the stove. I've done it plenty of times. I just won't bother. I threw away my last jar of popcorn because it was old enough that the kernals had gone rancid. I have a canister popcorn in the pantry now--which I mill and put into bread. Maybe my MW popcorn is better than yours? It's as good as we get at the movies, though noticeably less good than from the gourmet popcorn companies.

My bad, pillog. Different tastes, is all, then. I just assumed and projected my own preferences. (I hate the gunk in typical MW brands but I know there are better brands out there without weird artificial flavourings, trans fats and diacetyl. But I still prefer stovetop-- much cheaper, and I tend to like the aesthetics of the whole stove top process.) Anyhow, sorry for the assumption. Carry on! :)

No issues, Lapsang! I appreciate your preference for the popcorn you make. It's completely relevant to the topic of what one actually needs a microwave for as well. To further the reason I countered about the sensor, it's not just a time button. It actually has a sensor that detects doneness. It works on frozen vegetables, too. I use frozen vegetables about twice a year, but the sensor is totally awesome. :) I like your former roommate's mark for the right flame for popcorn too. :)

One of the hardest things about a new kitchen is learning the new appliances. One has to learn different ways of doing the same old thing, different timings, etc.

I have a large pantry with an inexpensive white microwave oven there which matches my shelving. All my kitchen appliances are stainless. My previous house had many kitchen built ins that were a nightmare to replace to fit the cabinetry. Never thought microwave ovens should be displayed so prominently.