Pro interpretation please! Bump.

He has been a little busy, but should respond. For organic fertilizer Microlife if you can get it, or Milorganite (not certified 100% organic) are some popular choices. I wouldn't apply that until May 1 or May 31 tho.

I have a 12-0-6 organic fertilizer ready for my first application from Reinders. Is there anything specific in the numbers I am looking for? Or is my biggest battle right now just getting microbes into the soil?

I can definitely use the feed as you are the 3rd or 4th person to recommend it.

How about about applying gypsum for dog urine and because I have such alkaline soil?

Is there a herbicide that Is popular? My only issue in the yard is quack grass especially when a commercial fertilizing crew left me with a less than dominant grass. But that's another problem.

Thanks so far!

If pH were the issue with dog pee then you would be golden (punny) for all time. No, it's the sudden drench with high nitrogen urine. Your dearth of soil microbes is the problem. Drop a heaping handful of table sugar on the pee spots and they will clear up in a few days. The sugar basically causes the bacteria to breed.

Killing grass in grass requires a grass killer. Most grass killers are non selective which means they kill all the grass. This means you can kill the quack grass, but you'll also kill some of your good grass. If your good grass is fescue or rye, you will need to reseed to fill that spot. If your good grass is Kentucky bluegrass or creeping bentgrass it will refill by itself.

Never heard of using sugar... my neighbor uses gypsum and swears it helps. Do I have to hit the spot pretty soon with sugar? I have bluegrass so it fills in but my yard is thin so trying to thicken it up and replace yellow spots with new sod. As well as replace areas where I kill quack grass.

If I choose milorganite or an organic fertilizer. Is there any numbers I should look for? (Nitrogen, Potash, or Phosphate.) Or at what ratio?

And lastly how often do I apply the organic? Every 2 months?

My apologies for the delay! We're going to have to flex on the organic thing to get your phosphorus levels up (no organic has good P levels that I consider acceptable, although I could probably design something using TSP if I had to).

ME 16.5: About what mine is, so a silty soil. You might have some clay, you might not. A jar test would give us an indication on this but it isn't terribly important.

pH 7.5: No barrier to a gorgeous lawn, although color might suffer a bit. More down below in Ca, Mg, and K.

OM 1.6%: Kind of low, and in the Poor range. I'd always mulch mow, mow in all fall leaves, mow in tossed weeds (that aren't blooming or seeding), any garden mass, and so on. But I also wouldn't import anything as your ME is high enough that this isn't an emergency.

Sulfur 16: Entirely normal.

Phosphorus 58: Very low. My target here would be 260-280 due to your pH. We use starter fertilizer to fix this, and just get the cheapest. They all work the same.

Calcium 74%: High, but not ridiculously so. Grass does fine in a high calcium environment, but this is setting off your higher pH to some extent. There's not much we can do about it, so I'm content to let it ride.

Magnesium 20%: Even higher than it looks, the high calcium level is masking some of this. It's the source of your tight, hard soil and why it acts like clay...and there's nothing we can do about it. Definitely avoid ALL magnesium sources.

Potassium 1.2%: Rather low, actually, but I have to raise this without impacting your pH significantly. Fortunately, the standard method does that--potassium sulfate (sulfate of potash). You can get this at many local garden or landscape stores, or they can order it for you.

Minor Elements: Boron is low, and iron bears mentioning.

Iron 157: Not deficient, but not going to produce the best color at your pH. Whenever you like, you can use Milorganite to slowly raise this over a period of years.

Boron 0.28: Very low. We use Milorganite as a carrier and 20 Mule Team Borax as the boron source. You can purchase 20 Mules at the grocery store in the laundry section. In a wheelbarrow or the like, dump the Milo. Spraying very, very lightly with water (I use a spray bottle like the kind people use to damp their clothes when they iron) will help the boron stick. Add the recommended amount of 20 Mule Team Borax and stir, spraying occasionally to get the stuff to stick to the Milo. Then apply over the recommended area. So if going for bag rate Milorganite (1 bag per 2,500 square feet), you'd add 10 tablespoons of 20 Mule Team Borax.

Recommendations:

May 15: Apply 4 tablespoons of 20 Mule Team Borax per thousand square feet.

Memorial Day: Feed the lawn with starter fertilizer at the bag rate.

June 15: Apply 4 pounds per thousand square feet of potassium sulfate.

Labor Day: Feed the lawn with starter fertilizer at the bag rate.

October 1: Feed the lawn with starter fertilizer at the bag rate.

October 15: Apply 4 pounds per thousand square feet of potassium sulfate.

Thank you so much Morpheus! I have been reading a lot of your posts and I see you recommend starter fertilizer more often than not. Is that just to get the core components into the soil and then tweak with other solutions?

So do I grab a starter fertilizer that contains all 3 numbers? N,P, and K? Does it need to be organic? I have a 12-0-6 organic fertilizer but I couldn't get any phosphate until a soil test proved it. Mn law. Do I use what I have or go to a starter fertilizer?

http://m.homedepot.com/p/LESCO-50-lb-18-24-12-Starter-Fertilizer-052405/100343536

What is the effects of such a low boron level?

And lastly with the sulfate, do I apply that with milorganite or only use milo with the borax?

Also what's your best solution for dog urine in my soil? I am going to resod some damaged areas for now. I have heard sugar or gypsum on spots. Thoughts?

Also, much of a difference between Dimension vs Barricade preemergent?

Bump

He indicated starter fertilizer because your phosphorus levels are low. The P in N-P-K is Phosphorus, so applying 12-0-6 (P=0) will do nothing to raise phosphorus levels. The Lesco starter fertilizer you posted is great, I use it when seeding.

On the matter of Dimension vs Barricade, buying them in the generic version will save you 50%. Dimension is dithiopyr and Barricade is prodiamine. Both will provide good pre-emergent control. Dithiopyr provides short to medium term control while prodiamine provides medium to long term control. Dithiopyr will leach and so application timing is of greater importance than with prodiamine, which does not leach. I have not compared prices per application on the two, I bought a 5# jug of prodiamine for $65 and it looks like it will last me about 15 years, so I'm sticking with that.

Thank you. At the time I got the fertilizer I had no soil test to prove I needed phosphorus so I wasn't allowed to buy it. From Reindeer at least. I will follow morpheus' advice and move on. Be interested to hear dog spot advice. I will browse around first.

What he said. :-)

N, P, and K are all soil supplied, so if they're not there, we have to add them. In your case, the P is most definitely not there. To add it, we'd use any fertilizer with a high second number (20-27-5, 18-24-6, or the like). Those will never be organics; the highest P level you're going to see out of most organics is about 2 (there are exceptions, of course).

Soft rock phosphate could be used if you were adamantly against using starter fertilizer, but it'll take a lot, be fairly expensive, and take a long time to work. I suggest biting the bullet for a year or two and then flipping to an organic regimen.

Boron's an oddball. Only very small amounts (700 parts per billion or so) are ever required, but it's used in enzyme production, photosynthesis, and meristem development. Lacking it, photosynthesis is inefficient, and cells elongate but don't differentiate well and are very bad at their jobs.

For dog spots, sprinkling sugar is definitely a good idea, as is going organic (two dogs, fully organic, no burns unless it's a dry July). Personally, I'd say that if you could also sprinkle sawdust in locations where the dog tends to go, that would also help. Refresh it as necessary.

Hello MorpheusPA

I am Shermers neighbor and we have been working hard on our lawns so thank you for all of the help!!!!

I have more questions about Dog pee spots..

How much sugar should we put down and how long after the dog actually pees in the spot will it even be effective??? Do we use a lot of sugar or a cup or what? Do we need to water the spots down or no???

If we do not have easy access to sawdust any other suggestions?? Do you just sprinkle the sawdust anywhere throughout the yard where they pee??

Thanks again!!!

Shermer's neighbor: I can help with the sugar question. Also, you can probably find the info you are looking for if you do a forum search for "sugar" or "urine." The idea is that like adding too much fertilizer to your lawn can cause a nitrogen burn, so can urine in a concentrated spot. What I've learned here is that, for one, you have to get to the pee spot as quickly as possible to prevent damage. Whether that is 1 hour or 1 day I do not know. The first action you can take is to spray the spot with water to dilute the nitrogen (in urea form I believe). In addition, or possibly without even bothering to dilute the urine, drop a handful of sugar on the spot and water it in.

The idea is that soil microbes feed on the urea. The problem is that there is too much urea and the microbes can't consume it all. That excess nitrogen is what burns the grass. By adding sugar, you are feeding the microbes. This will cause an explosion in microbe population very quickly, and will provide troop reinforcement so the microbe army can consume all of the urea. This will protect the grass. Over time, the microbes will die off and otherwise metabolize the nitrogen (tho' I don't know exactly how) and will return the nitrogen back to the soil in a slower, more controlled way.

Doing a google search, I see that urea does react with gypsum. Whether it does so to any great extent by just throwing them together, I don't know. If it works on the urine spot then it probably does react easily. However, you will be adding calcium to your soil every time the dog pees, and this could upset your soil balance over time. Seems like the sugar method has no major drawbacks and people have reported success. I haven't had occasion to try it.

The other treatment is the morpheus method. Get your soil chemistry perfect, get your organic levels high, and it won't matter whether the dog or the elephant pees or poops. If you have KBG it is even less of a problem as it will grow back in if damaged. I have KBG and I observed some deer droppings last year. They just sat there and never burned the grass. They just kind of shrank and dissolved over time.

Urea's reaction with gypsum is kind of meh. It does work, but the resultant is ammonium sulfate...a salt that's easily broken apart in water and will also kill the lawn in excessive amounts (in smaller amounts, it's a fertilizer and one that's extensively used).

I consider the handful of sugar method a way to rescue the surrounding lawn and speed recovery of the burned spot, not really a preventative. The only preventative I've found is a highly organic soil that can absorb (the bacteria actually do that) the urea and resulting ammonia and bind it up for a while, returning it slowly as the bacteria die or are consumed.

So I went to Reinders and all they had was 0-0-53 water solvable. How do I mix this or do I get something else? They don't stock the sulfate of potassium 0-0-28 granular. They have granular 14-0-25 fertilizer, Please reply quick as I wait down the street.

And does the type of product going to change the application rate as it isn't listed like a fertilizer is?

Thanks!

Edit: I'm trying to do the sulfate of potash application.

I'm not even sure what that is...I'd need a photo of the label.

Is potassium sulfate the same as sulfate potash. That might be a dumb question!

I am going to need a lot of sugar!!!!

If I put down just one application of Gypsum is it going to do any damage when I add these other applications?

According to Wikipedia, potassium sulfate is also called sulfate of potash. There shouldn't be any chemical reaction between gypsum, or calcium sulfate, and your potassium sulfate. As far as how much Ca and K you are adding and what your lawn needs is a question for morpheus.

Whether you need them is, as Daniel noted, unknown--you can't assume your soil is the same as your neighbors', and soil testing of my neighbors' lawns proves vast differences between our soils around here. It just depended on where yours came off the pile. Me, I got the heavy under-soil that happened to be at the top of the pile as it was dug out last.

Chemically speaking, gypsum (calcium sulfate) and potassium sulfate don't react directly. However, the soil competes in binding them, and the gypsum wins in this case (the soil likes to bind calcium more than it likes to bind potassium). It's wise to split applications by two weeks and one very good rainfall (at minimum).