Isn't it too young to know yet if it could be amazing?

It is young, I think about two years old. I had it before I put it in this specific spot. It's roughly 3.5 feet by 3.5 feet in size. That is why I am wondering if it has a decent shot at outgrowing a tendency to powdery mildew.

I don't know about mildew -- It's never mildewed here -- but I found out in TX that it can blackspot like crazy.

At the Chambersville Tree Farm -- a whole row of HUGE plants of Mutabilis, almost totally defoliated. A shock to ME!

"Next door" a group of "Smith's Parish" with not a hint of disease, covered with buds ready to pop.

Mutabilis is known to dislike pruning. It gets even with you by growing into strange and weird ways. However it will in time flush out into an upright bush that looks attractive. Full sun seems to bring out the different colours best.

Planted in full sun

Planted in some shade

So far I have not pruned it, so its weird growth is not pruning related. If I do decide to prune it I will take out canes from the base.

This plant gets full morning sun, but in the afternoon it is in shade. Actually most roses seem to love this exposure. I regard this spot as prime territory.

I guess I'll watch it for a while and see how it does. But it is on warning to shape up.

Mine are very young still in pots so I wouldn't know. What I can tell you is that my Old Blushes outgrew their tendencies to mildew badly. They still do get some but nothing to write home about and they shrug it off come summer. If it is any indication, my Mutabilis seem to be getting MUCH less of it than what the OBs were getting when young.

I've never gotten over one 'Mutabilis' I saw growing down in the Po Plain that was roughly the size of our living room. I think it needs to be large (not as large as that plant was) to show itself off. Ours gets mildew, along with perhaps half my roses, but not badly enough to bother me. But I don't think our disease pressures are as serious as in much of California. I like 'Mutabilis'. And yes, I too like scent.

I am in Texas. Years ago, I made the big mistake of planting it up next to my horse barn. I ended up whacking it back every time I turned around. Finally got sick of that and either moved it or got rid of it. Don't live at that place anymore, and that was about 25 years ago. I don't remember it having either mildew or blackspot. Found it too twiggy for my taste. However, I saw a gorgeous specimen that had been trained into a climber. I bought a 1 gallon pot of it at Chamblees last fall which had 3 cuttings in it. I am training the cuttings up stakes in hopes that I can make climbers out of them. I have Plantesirie [not correct spelling] that is kin to Mutablis - it has similar blooms, but it would be a house eater if allowed. I grew it from a band from Vintage - whacked it to the ground this spring, now it is trying to take over the world. I think next winter I am going to dig it up, take it to my pond and plant it in the tree line - it can sink or swim. If these little Mutablis babies can be trained into climbers - great. But not sure I would want to plant the bush again. But.....if I saw one covered in blooms, might change my mind!

Judith

If it has only been in its current location for one year, I think it is way, way, too early to start judging it. I planted one once in my MIL's garden (4 blocks from my house), and it took 3 years before it started looking good. Then it became beautiful. It did have some disease as a baby, but grew out of that. Patience is a virtue.

Jackie

Jackie, that was what I was hoping to hear.

I am planning to keep Mutabilis to a reasonable size, say 6 by 6 or a bit larger. And I will prune to get this size.

I've seen it trained as a climber, years ago on Lago di Garda.

I got rid of mine. Just didn't like it.

There used to be one at the Pacific-Asia Museum in Pasadena, trimmed and trained like a Bonsai. Striking!

I've always been partial to it.

Jeri, I just posted a question about a few pics of a breathtaking Mutabilis trained as a tree, Location/owner unknown, could that be the one at the Pacific-Asia Museum in Pasadena?? Because, if so, I'd be thrilled if I could just drive over and see it in person! :)

Might be . . . But it was at least 15 years ago that I saw it ... maybe more ... because it was at a rose show that was held there. It might still be there, or might be long-gone.

But if you should get over there to look, it was in the central courtyard of the building (which you can see, here). If you enter from the front, you would be facing it, toward the back of the courtyard, to the left.

A large Mutabilis is stunning; a small one just looks silly. It's a China and twiggy as can be. We dont get PM much in VA, but BS is rampant. I have found that if I just leave the roses to cope on their own eventually they do. Or maybe I've just been lucky. Mutabilis and other Chinas are never that bad anyway. It's the HPs and Bourbons that are BS magnets here.

6 by 6 is a reasonable size. That's what the one we had was, and it was happy and looked great until the !@#$%^ "gardeners" pruned it down to 10 inches. It almost died, but did eventually recover.

Jackie

The Mutabilis in our garden flourishes and is so lovely we put another in. Neither is grown in isolation but back of a border of native plants so it reaches over and out with its "butterflies" of mutability wafting on our breezes.

How long would it take a well cared for Mutabilis in a warm climate to reach 6x6' size?

I don't actually know, but I expect it to happen next year, or at the most, the year after. I look forward to hearing other responses.

Well, mine is not yet a year old (own root) and 4 by 4 already. Admitted it's an airy 4 by 4 at the moment, but filling in rapidly.

My first encounter with Mutabilis was back in the 1980s, with this one. Even then I would say it must have been at least 10ft tall and wide. Someone did tell me back then that they thought it was 3 plants grown together, but I don't know whether or not that is correct.

www.pbase.com/yvonneii/image/22004109

Flowers have a tea fragrance to me.

I planted Mutabilis in a sunny spot last September and it's already 3'x3'. Hasn't bloomed much yet (squirrels chewed off the first set of buds) but only got a touch of mildew in early spring and no BS so far.

Oh, groan, I'm crackers for this rose and can't get one to grow here. My winters seem to be just too cold. I've tried 3 times now and none of them made it through their first winter. At this point I'd be happy with any shape or size diseased or not!

I have seen it grown successfully in southern England at Mottisfont, and even more successfully at a friend's garden not far away from there. That was actually what inspired me. Seil, try what the English do with borderline hardy plants and grow it on a wall that retains heat.

It might just be too cold where you are, seil. But did you winter protect them the first few years? If you want to try again, I'd do as Paula says, and also make sure the site has good drainage. Like other warm climate roses, from what I've seen, 'Mutabilis' can be killed by too much water in the cold season. That's how I lost the one I had in western Washington state, which grew well for several years.

Mine was in morning sun only and did very well, but was against a house wall and really too large for its spot. I think it was in the third year before it began to be a large bush.

I'll admit that I'm a fan of this rose, and am fascinated by it's color changes. But I think the real question is whether you will ever like this rose even if it stays the right size and outgrows any disease issues? Or would you be happier with a rose with a fuller and more fragrant flower?

If you don't think you'll ever be happy with 'Mutabilis' it might be better to give it to someone who does like it, and plant what gives you more pleasure. But if you think you might grow to like it more, that's an experiment worth trying.

Good luck,

Virginia

As far as fragrance goes, I can't smell any of the teas and chinas, so that is not an issue. And while I do not as a whole like singles, I am charmed by the color changes. I have it planted next to Climbing Shot Silk, a fragrant and semi-double pernetiana which echoes some of its coloring. I think this was so very of clever of me that I can hardly stand it. All this means that yes, if it becomes healthier and develops a more pleasing shrub form, I expect to like it very much indeed.

Shot Silk is a rose I've admired in photos, and I admire your matchmaking abilities here... I can imagine that they would play off each other well.

Since Mutabilis is so often recommended for CA gardens, I'm guessing (certainly hoping) the health issues will become rarer with maturity, and it will soon be less of a gawky adolescent shrub, and fill out... perhaps too much so, but it sounds like you can keep it from taking over.

Enjoy!

Virginia

Not much experience with Mutabilis, nor do I expect it to survive my winters, but my own root body bag is a cute little ball of a bush.

Steven

Up against the house and facing south, it just may make it through your Winters.

:-)

~Christopher

I'm loving mine atm. It's been (and still is) a long, cold, wet winter here and mutabilis is still looking great. Better than in summer actually because the storms have squashed her down, so shes much more easy to get around.

I'd be tickled pink if it does survive in its as-southerly-as-it-can-get-anywhere spot (west and north and north-East winds are totally blocked plus foundation and concrete pad radiated warmth).

:)

Steven

It grows well in the Brooklyn Botanic Garden, or did for years (we haven't been there in a while since we let our membership lapse). The rose sold as "Bermuda Kathleen" was also featured prominently at the BBG; it is apparently a Mutabilis seedling and may be more restrained in its habit. It has the changing colors but more on the pink spectrum than the yellow,. There was also a "Yellow Mutabilis" sold by Vintage which looked exquisite -- at least in their picture. That one had me drooling, as I am a pushover for pale yellow. I have the real Kathleen, BTW -- definitely a climber -- couldn't be happier with it. It is a hybrid musk and not a china like Mutabilis.

Just an update; Mutabilis seems to grow swiftly!

Steven

The only issue I have with this rose is that the blooms don't last an hour under our summer sun. So it's no good for that part of the year (about 4 months in our case). It's good for the rest though.. No PM during spring and autumn when PM pressure is high here. I'm thinking it might be good if planted where it is partly shaded by a decidous tree.

MI GreenTumb, wow, that looks great! Please let me know how it winters for you.

Thank you, Seil.

I will let you know how it winters. I personally expect it to pass unceremoniously in the depths of winter here. Especially based on your experiences and you're a zone warmer than I!

I'll mound the crown with soil before the hardest freezes and hope for the best.

Steven