Help with Kitchen layout please

10 years ago

What a helpful board! Here is a draft from my architect of our kitchen - I love a lot of things about our plan (cross-posted on Building a Home forum) - but I need help with the kitchen layout.

We are a family of 5, and I envision that we will often eat informally at the kitchen island. I want to make sure we have space for all 5 of us to sit, and I prefer "L" seating vs. all of us sitting in a line.

I need fresh ideas for how to make this a family friendly and cooking friendly kitchen. Thanks in advance!

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10 years ago

Dear Storey03,

There are Seven Huge Mistakes you'll make in
designing your kitchen. They are all obvious and even though I'm telling you
and showing you what they. You'll still make at least three of these seven.

1. My kitchen layout could be better.
2. My kitchen didn’t turn out the way I thought it
would.
3. I don’t know where any of my kitchen stuff is
supposed to go!
4. My stuff doesn’t fit in my cabinets!
5. My Kitchen isn’t easy to work in (your kitchen
is Dysfunctional).
6. When I entertain I can’t get to some of my MAJOR
Appliances.
7. I wish I had a Pantry.

1. My kitchen layout could be better.

This is the one you have to get right or everything
else won’t matter because your kitchen plan is your kitchen. There is no other possibility.

How many different combinations of appliances
and cabinetry have to tried that would work to meet your needs, the space you
have to work with, and will accommodate all your kitchen items where they
should be stored for efficiency?

Instead of choosing from two to three options, or having your architect
just do what you told them. You should have gotten to decide from at least 5
very different combinations of appliances and cabinetry, and as many as could
be produced. 10, 15, 20 or more. If you want the absolute best solution and
build your ultimate forever kitchen this is where you should start. And unfortunately
for consumers like you almost no one designing residential kitchens today does
this.

If you've ever wondered why you can't seem to find a home on the
market with a kitchen you'd love to own, this is why. The solution most
prescribed is trendy, new, and wow. Almost no time is invested in planning
great solutions for you to decide from with proof of performance. And when the
trend your kitchen was designed to meet changes you'll see the value of the
kitchen you purchased 8 to 12 years earlier plummet to Zero. And you be left
with Dated & Dysfunctional and wanting another new kitchen. Planned
Obsolescence or Unique Permanent Kitchen Solution...It's Your Decision.

On this board you’ll get great ideas and advice to change your
plan but without knowing how to test and evaluate them they will do nothing but
confuse you and possibly add to your stress and overwhelm.

Let’s evaluate what you have.
First these cannot be all the appliances you’re using. You’ll need to
select your appliances. Decide what you would like to have in a perfect world.
Knowing they may not all fit but that’s your kitchen designer’s problem. Also,
as you age your needs and requirements will change. So get appliances that will
serve you long term. If you buy a 36” fridge because that’s what you need now
and then in 5 years you want a 48” fridge you’ll have to remodel. Or make do by
running to the garage for the second fridge and your garage is not close to
your kitchen.

Without question this is definitely not the
best kitchen layout for the space you have to work with (in my opinion). When
you enter the kitchen from the hall you have to walk right into your cooking
area. And since we all travel path of least resistance your family and friends
will walk in a straight line directly into your cooking area. Because there is
so much real estate in your work area family and friends will congregate there
and make working in this kitchen a chore.

The L
shaped island is also terrible because it creates such a large work area and
large work triangle (the distance from the fridge to the sink to the range). Your
work triangle is about large as you can make it. You'll do a lot of walking and
spending time unproductively. Spending an extra 10 minutes twice a day will
waste over two hours each week, over 104 hours each year.

Your fridge is close to the dining table but as
far away from outdoor space as possible so if you grill or entertain outdoors
this may be a problem for you to address. There is not enough counter to the
left of the main sink to stage dishes and glasses or pots and pans for cleanup.
There are only overhead cabinets on the range wall so if you store your dishes
and glasses on the range wall you about as far from the dining table as
possible. And the five or six steps from the range wall to your main sink for
your water source, and to clean up during the preparation and cooking tasks
will wear you out and make working in this kitchen a real chore.

This kitchen is difficult is because there is
very little wall space. What you have is
a galley kitchen without the second wall. If you want to fix this you’ll need
more wall space. No need to redesign your first floor layout. Your architect,
in my opinion, did a good job of laying out your living space. Since only one
very rough kitchen plan was presented I can’t tell if he/she is any good at
kitchen design.

Your kitchen is the problem. You have plenty of
real estate to work with you just don’t have the wall space you need to accommodate
all of your equipment and storage needs.

You need to get out some tracing paper and
sketch as many different combinations of appliances and cabinetry as you can
come up with. Here is the secret…Keep sketching until you finally run out of
things that don’t work and a whole new set of opportunities will open up to
you.

Might I suggest you put a wall in between the
dining room and the kitchen. It shouldn’t be a solid wall but a wall with a
large opening(s) in it so you have your open plan and the wall space you so
desperately need to create a great kitchen.

Kitchen design is not rocket science its practical
science. Your kitchen’s purpose is to provide food and beverage service for
your home (all of it), keep this in mind. The appliance dictates the task and its
location, the task dictates the kitchen items you’ll need, and the kitchen
items dictate the best cabinetry configuration and accessories needed to store
and retrieve those items. Store the items you’ll use by each appliance as
closely as possible and you’ll increase efficiency. And your kitchen will work
intuitively.

Do not settle on a kitchen layout without proof
of performance.

Hope this has been helpful

Sincerely,

Joe Brandao

P.S.: if you want to add seating without an L shaped
island this photo shows you how you can do that.

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Comments (27)

mama goose_gw zn6OH
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
Welcome to Kitchens. Have you thought about having clean-up on the perimeter, and a prep sink on the island? Is the island all one level?

What size is the range? If it's only 30", you can move the fridge toward the left, and make the broom cabinet wider.

In this plan, a helper can load or unload the DW, or set the table, while you are prepping and cooking. The DW could be switched to the left side, and the dish storage could be a pretty hutch-style cabinet, which would also help block the view of the dirty dishes in the sink. That would also work well if you like to keep the DW open as you prep. If you keep the DW on the right, the left side would make a nice secondary prep space, again for a helper:

Will the MW be included in the oven stack?
storey03
Original Author
10 years ago
Thanks Mama Goose. Yes, the island will be one level. I think I like how you moved clean-up off the island and if we did that I would definitely like a small prep sink on the island. The only thing I worry about it with the fridge in that location is if it will cause a traffic block when the door is open.

In the 1st plan, I think we had the microwave & an ice maker over by the refrigerator. I am still undecided on what to do with microwave -- include with the oven stack, put counter level, put in a cabinet.
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mama goose_gw zn6OH
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
Probably won't block traffic any more than having the fridge in the original location, blocking traffic from the LR, DR, front entry, and bedrooms 1, 2, and 3. ;) Besides, you have a nice traffic circle--if someone is in a hurry, he can go around. I have a similar pattern in my house, although not as far to walk around. Usually, I like the fridge on the fringe, so that no one needs to enter the prep and cooking zone to access it, but as originally drawn, it seems too far from the cooktop.

If you opt for the prep sink, I'd suggest at least 18" wide.

If you keep dishes in uppers on the clean-up wall, a MW drawer could go beside the sink, near the fridge.

In the original layout, where were you planning to store dishes?
lakeerieamber
10 years ago
I would want more prep space next to the range. Not sure how to accomplish that, though, the the experts here I'm sure will have some great ideas!
emilyam819
10 years ago
Not a fan of the L shaped island. What about a large rectangle with seating on 2 sides?
Lavender Lass
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
Is there no access from foyer to dining room? In that case, you'll have a lot of traffic going through your kitchen.

Here's a quick mock-up....

Purple is access to outside.

Red is access from master to anywhere in the right/front of the house.

Green is access from right/front of house to dining room, then living room.

Pink is access from living room to fridge and snacks in pantry.

Orange is access from outside to dining and living area.

You can see how much traffic is going through your work area. This is going to be a challenge with the current layout.

I do like your idea of a big island with seating on two sides! That is a great way to keep everyone from feeling like (as Marcolo used to say) they're in stadium seating. I'm sure the people here will help you find a way to make the kitchen work in your space. It's just going to take some time...and probably collaboration among many GW kitchen gurus : )
lakeerieamber
10 years ago
Lavender, good catch! I thought that was a doorway into the dining room but I see now it is just an opening. Definitely think about all those people walking through your kitchen not because they need something in the kitchen! Right now my traffic flow on my current house has people going through my kitchen to access the laundry/pantry/half bath/garage area and it drives me nuts! This is the reason I asked for my kitchen to be tucked in a corner in my next house!
cpartist
10 years ago
Here's a mockup I did last night on the building forum to show her another idea of how to redo the bedroom to avoid a lot of that. I didn't play with the kitchen but I envision a straight island with one back wall.
cpartist
10 years ago
mama goose_gw zn6OH
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
lavender, your eyes are sharper than mine--I missed that the door to the DR is a 'window'.

storey03, I would not only make the opening a door, but I'd open the room to the entry foyer. (Then throw some feng shui crystals and windchimes up on the DR window ;).
ascorsonelli
10 years ago
Mama, your red line has me rolling
mama goose_gw zn6OH
10 years ago
;)
Karenseb
10 years ago
Why not put a french door in the dining room and eliminate the kitchen door. She could use that back wall for large window and a sink.
storey03
Original Author
10 years ago
Oh totally agree with your red traffic line! The thought of all that traffic going right through my kitchen is what was bugging me the most.

In the original plan, I was going to have a buffet/serving table in the space that shared a foyer wall. We created an opening so that you would be able to see the views when you walked into the house. Also I am wondering how full of homework and other work in process that dining room will be...my point of making this an open floor plan is so that we would really use that table! But for traffic flow....yes, I may need to reconsider. I think it helps some, but I still think the kitchen flow needs help.

CP - I like your mock up, but I still think I want the seating to be more in an L shape.
ascorsonelli
10 years ago
Move the hallway-to-kitchen door closer to the entry and make an L of the cabinets.
mama goose_gw zn6OH
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
Good idea to move the kitchen entry, ascorsonelli., but instead of an L, I'd do a straight run, and have a pocket door from the pantry, so there isn't such a walk around.

storey03, you might have to lock the pantry door, and wear the key on a chatelaine, to make sure no one cuts through. ;)
Lavender Lass
10 years ago
I like Ascorsonelli's idea for the L-shape kitchen with a big island! Maybe something like this? You could add a prep sink in the corner, if you like. It might be nice to have a few prep zones with such a big home : )
Karenseb
10 years ago
Lavender's plan is very nice. Just move the pantry to where the alcove is.
Lavender Lass
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
Karen- I was thinking of swapping the pantry and 'her' closet....and maybe adding a door from closet to laundry area.

Or even a walk-through pantry. With a freezer and possible second
fridge (I think that's in their plan on building a home forum.) That
would be nice!
mama goose_gw zn6OH
10 years ago
Whole house plan:

I wouldn't want the pantry (in alcove) so far from where groceries are brought in, and I'd want the MBR closets as is. The island can be a deeper rectangle with seating on two (or three sides), and the pantry in the original spot, without losing closet space:
cpartist
10 years ago
Here's what I came up with for the master suite so I'm thinking mixed with what LL did it could work
storey03
Original Author
10 years ago
Thanks everyone. I would like to try an option besides 2 doors to the pantry. Laughing at the comment that I will have to lock it and keep a lanyard on my neck to keep everyone from walking into the kitchen through the panty.

Ok, what if we completely change the layout and change kitchen exterior door to a window and make a counter on that side? Either put an exterior door in the alcove, or close that part off if I end up changing the master suite.

I think I would prefer a door to the patio in the alcove, as we were planning to have some nice big windows in the dining area, but on the other hand I can see how L shaped kitchen with island can offer so much functionality.

A room with some many entries really is difficult! I appreciate the help.
storey03
Original Author
10 years ago
The Reserve Parade Home - Laurel Haven · More Info
Or what if it is something like this with a prep sink on that middle island? Is this a no-no function-wise? It looks like this might be a similar set up - door way by fridge, open to dining, etc.
cpartist
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
Are you thinking something like this? Kitchen is very rough. I didn't do it all to scale. I flipped your bathroom and closet and kept the hallway to the outside wall. This gives a window over the tub and brings light into the bathroom.
Lavender Lass
10 years ago
I like the kitchen L, but I believe OP want seating on two sides of the island. Maybe something like this?

The master bedroom is now a LONG way from the kitchen. Any way to move the closet into that area between pantry and bedroom, bathroom on the outside wall (off garage porch) and maybe get the access closer to the pantry? So many long hallways...
cpartist
10 years ago
I missed that LL. Good point and as I said, I didn't do it to scale. I was just doing it to show overall placement.

Any way to move the closet into that area between pantry and bedroom, bathroom on the outside wall (off garage porch) and maybe get the access closer to the pantry? So many long hallways...

I had tried something like that but the only way to do it without increasing the square footage is to have a hallway between the closet and the bathroom.

As the OP noted above where I posted it, if she was running from the bath to her closet and someone was coming in from the garage, she'd be visible in all her glory since everyone always forgets to close their doors. (It was similar to my original master suite hallway.)

Now on this version, I put the door to the closet along the hallway, but it could just as easily be put from inside the bedroom. There could also be a door that leads out the bottom of the closet to the hallway as a secondary door.

But, why does the master bedroom need to be near the kitchen? I'd rather have it this way where it's closer to the laundry, than the way she had it before where she had to walk though the whole house to bring her laundry from her bedroom to the laundry room.