I'm having my first good zucchini year after a couple of duds so I know your dilemma. My problem was a poor bed that was being infiltrated by maple tree roots despite being past the drip line. The weak plants became susceptible to any bug that came along. They grew a little and then died. This year they are in a new bed with soil amendments and composted manure added.

Do you think it would work to put the grow bags in a child's plastic pool so the pool could hold extra water when you go away? I was at a garden center recently which was what they were doing for a group of shrubs on display. We are finally getting some gentle rain but basically in drought conditions.

Assuming no pest issues then best guess is a combo of over-watering and poor drainage. Watering every 3 days could easily be excessive. That's one big advantage to 5-1-1, it drains exceedingly well and easily compensates for over-watering.

Dave

Main stems literally mush sounds like squash vine borer. Look up pictures of svb and frass.

+1

Allison, when I pulled them out they resembled the damage caused by SVB but I saw no evidence of the critters themselves. I should have taken photos. Too late now.

Dave, how can you not water every three days when the leaves are showing signs of wilt? I don't get it.

Signs of wilt and mushy stems does sound like SVB. I don't think over watering would manifest itself like that, personally.

<when I pulled them out they resembled the damage caused by SVB but I saw no evidence of the critters themselves> First if you can you should either burn the resulting mess or send it off property.

fwiw - the larvae only spend a period of time in the stem and then burrow into the soil. Is it possible they had already exited the stem? The pupa can be found in the top part of the soil- it looks like a reddish/brown spiral shaped cocoon.

Follow up on my earlier thought... watering every 3 days in your region in a bed rather than a container seems excessive. I'd hazard a guess that the wilt you saw was a result of SVB rather than a need for water. Maybe I've got SVB on the brain due to my own recent infestation, but I haven't had a lot of wilting plants even in the heat we've been experiencing in the northeast... and I water every couple of weeks... even in the heat. I second Gumby's thought to be careful you don't have unwanted guests in your bed lying in wait for next year's crop.

Here we are on the over watering bandwagon again yet no one has even asked about watering habits or how much water each time.

Signs of wilt can be caused by many things and lack of water is only one of them. Since established plants shouldn't need water every three days it would be a red flag to look for another cause.

Plus large leaf plants often show signs of wilt during the heat of the day due to leaf transpiration. It is normal response of plants and not an indication that water is needed.

That's why I said "assuming no pest issues" in my first post since with squash, SVB is the first thing most think of to check for.

Dave

Always thought that wilting leaves means water is needed. Guess I was wrong.

Nobody asked about watering? I believe the OP mention in is first post about watering and people were giving their opinions on what was causing his problem and watering might be one, I would say it is SVB, I have that problem every year so I just plant a few extra, And the 3 plants that survived for me give me more then enough, I even give them away.

<no one has even asked about watering habits or how much water each time.>

I really should have taken pictures....then we would have known for sure. My bad.

< Either I overwatered them, underwatered them, or my drainage is not good but I had to pull them out today because all of the main stems (8 plants) were literally mush. I harvested 3 or 4 puny looking zuccini IN ALL, no yellow ones. I watered my garden every three days (when no rain was present in between) but perhaps that was too much. If the leaves were not showing signs of wiliting, I did not water them.>

I thought he was asking about watering habits.

"Nobody asked about watering?"

<no one has even asked about watering habits or how much water each time.>"

__________

Yeah, no one asked about it because the information was already given. So what are you saying?

Dave

To clarify my comment about the frequency of the watering "seeming excessive", I didn't intend to suggest that the watering was causing the wilt, rather that if wilt was present with that frequency of watering, it's probably not the water that's the issue. Could've more accurately phrased it as "plenty of water" to avoid wilting. In my experience, if plants wilt from overwatering it happens during or immediately after the watering takes place... it wouldn't manifest days later and prompt a person to add even more water to the problem. I don't believe the OP overwatered, in other words.

<__________

Yeah, no one asked about it because the information was already given. So what are you saying?

Dave>

This is what was said: <I watered my garden every three days (when no rain was present in
between) but perhaps that was too much. If the leaves were not showing
signs of wiliting, I did not water them.>

Now Dave kindly tell me what that means to you.

Jimmy what does that means to you?

This is what I am asking...

Without knowing how the water was applied - by sprinkler, hand-held hose, soaker hose, etc. And not knowing how much was applied every 3 days, kindly tell me how that leads you to over watering killing the plants. Besides someone in the tomato forum once over watered their tomato plant.

Sorry I just do NOT get the connection.

Nor do I understand how over watering will turn a plant to mush.

What watering every three days means to me is there is a good chance of over-watering. All it does is keep the surface of the soil overly moist for prolong periods of time, especially in poorly draining soil. Just like I said in my first post. The term over-watering does not just mean amount, it also means frequency, and it also has to take into consideration the drainage ability of the soil being watered.

In ground plants very seldom require watering even 3 days regardless of the method used - unless one is using a teacup for some reason - especially if there has also been rain as indicated in the post..

As to how over-watering kills plants, can turn the stem to mush? Seriously? Shallow roots, soil fungi proliferation, and any of the common root/stem/crown rot diseases come to mind. Things like damp-off, Fusarium, Rhizoctonia stem and root rot, Gummy Stem Rot, Phytophthora fungus infection, Crown rot, etc. to name just a few.

Dave

I end up watering daily to every other day due to extremely sandy soil. Watering frequency is often an "it depends" question.

Over watering a plant affected by SVB is not likely to help or hurt it.
So if you thought it was SVB you wouldn't ask about watering.

<As to how over-watering kills plants, can turn the stem to mush?
Seriously? Shallow roots, soil fungi proliferation, and any of the
common root/stem/crown rot diseases come to mind. Things like damp-off,
Fusarium, Rhizoctonia stem and root rot, Gummy Stem Rot, Phytophthora
fungus infection, Crown rot, etc. to name just a few.>

Way too many assumptions for me to even take a nibble at that. The rest of the post was just irrational.

Even perennials needed watering this season because of the heat AND lack of rain. Besides the number of variables mentioned I say it also depends on if the annual was transplanted and how it was transplanted.

And it should be known that watering (by any method) where the stem goes into the soil is woefully ineffective. As a plant grows grows so do the roots. It is from the root tips where a plant feeds. This is very important to known before jumping to a conclusion for the root cause of a plants demise.

The point is one can add too much water in the wrong spot and be completely ineffective which can lead to other plant problems.

So to some here watering annual plants every 3 days when there were
record breaking temps (90 to 100+ deg) without rain is enuff to assume
the plant will die from over watering without knowing anything else
about the situation?

I am speaking for myself when I say "Not Me- NOT Today and tomorrow doesn't look good either".

I have my zukes by a soaker hose. It runs 24/7, but very slowly because it's gravity feed. I plant the young seedlings near the hose and they can put whatever roots they want in the wet zone. They seem very happy with the setup; the plants are large and lush, and I'm getting plenty zucchini!

So your plants are happy and you don't get any of these diseases?

<As to how over-watering kills plants, can turn the stem to mush?
Seriously? Shallow roots, soil fungi proliferation, and any of the
common root/stem/crown rot diseases come to mind. Things like damp-off,
Fusarium, Rhizoctonia stem and root rot, Gummy Stem Rot, Phytophthora
fungus infection, Crown rot, etc. to name just a few.

Dave> Seriously?

I guess we'll neva no what watering means to jimmy56_gw

Sounds more like we will never know what watering means to gumby_ct, If you think over watering can't cause diseases or a fungish which will rot your plants then you must be in a different country then us but more power to you and good luck.

<If you think over watering can't cause diseases or a fungish which will
rot your plants then you must be in a different country then us but more
power to you and good luck.>

YOU and PETER really need to read this thread again and show me where I said that over watering would not kill your plants.

<<This is what was said: <I watered my garden every three days (when no rain was present in
between) but perhaps that was too much. If the leaves were not showing
signs of wiliting, I did not water them.>>

In this season of abnormally low rainfall I do NOT consider watering every 3 days to be something that would kill plants even if it rained that day as the rainfall in most of this country was indeed abnormally low esp. in the OP's area.

So 3 of ya'll put your heads together and show me where I said that.

I am beginning to think that some people here think this forum is their personal blog and that no one else in the world is entitled to an opinion of their own and with that I disagree.

<njitgrad(6A/6B)
Allison, when I pulled them out they resembled the damage caused by SVB but I saw no evidence of the critters themselves.>

<Peter (6b SE NY)

Sorry,
that was definitely the impression I got, you did not say that directly
(you did say you "don't know how overwatering can turn a plant to
mush"), but this is not the first time you were questioning the
downfalls of overwatering. I know Dave can have strong opinions but he
is just giving his opinion here and you are being argumentative and
angry as you often do. If you don't want a fight then don't pick one and
don't tell someone their post is "irrational" and make jokes that
someone once overwatered their plant on the tomato forum.... you are
clearly implying that overwatering isn't a problem in gardening when you
say things like that, and not doing it in a productive way.>

<you are
clearly implying that overwatering isn't a problem in gardening> In case you missed it and you apparently did- I am saying I don't think over watering is the problem in this case. There is not enuff info/evidence for me to jump to that conclusion. If I missed something kindly point it out and no watering every 3 days alone is not evidence. This thread is about the OP's problem not gardening in general that is unless you want to be argumentative.

How can anyone or why would anyone can ass-U-me this case is/was over watering following <this season of abnormally low rainfall> without asking how much water was applied or even how it was applied? How? Tell me where is your evidence?

Apparently you just don't get it that this time of year the squash, zucchini, pumpkin, and other cucurbits are drastically affected by the Squash Vine Borer (SVB)? Yet you said <

Peter (6b SE NY) Looks like SVB to me, though not the best pic ever.> in this thread [SVB? Rotting Roots on Zucchini[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/svb-rotting-roots-on-zucchini-dsvw-vd~4048505)

Was that because I didn't think it was SVB but storm damage (in that case) and you wanted to argue?

My first post in this thread was hardly argumentative

<gumby_ct(CT it says Z5)

+1> The other posts were trying to support my conclusion which is different from the DD&P crowd, oh and now jimmy56_gw too.

Yet somehow you want to rationalize that when I express my opinion that the damage to this zucchini (in this thread) is not from over watering I am being argumentative?

I did not know that there is only one way to water plants in a garden and that if Dave, Dan, Jimmy, & Peter (DDJ&P) don't say it is right then it is wrong, no discussion, no flexibility.

Repeating... The impression I am left with is that you and your ilk think this is your personal blog and no one else in the world is entitled to an opinion that differs from yours and you are not being argumentative?.

Believe me when I tell you I have never learned a thing from someone who always agrees with me. What I have learned from ya'll here is that some people like to jump to conclusions with no evidence to support their conclusion.

My hope is that readers today and tomorrow will understand there is more than one way to garden; that gardening can and should be relaxing and enjoyable; and that each year things are different yet better; so they shouldn't get caught up with right or wrong but just remain flexible.

After reading this thread I think I'm going to start watering with scotch.

No... not putting the scotch on the plants, the scotch is for me!

+1

<removed - no longer necessary>

<Dave actually put forth a list of issues that are caused or made worse
by overwatering and you responded by calling in "irrational."> Only because the list had absolutely nothing to do with what is going on with the OP in this thread. Just another diversion off topic.

< I disagree with Dave all the time. We came to blows a couple times last year.> Another diversion off topic.

This is classic Peter (6b SE NY said: <I actually have no opinion on the actual real question posed here.> And seems to be most of the things you argue about.

<I have only been gardening for 4 years now> I knew that too but nice of you to admit it.

To prevent or live with SVB -

1. Peter says - Spray BT
2. Dave says - use row cover
3. Gumby says - plant out of lifecyle of the pest. Plant early, plant late, plant often.

ALL effective methods for many pests. Different yet effective.

<Maybe try putting forth your opinion in a way that isn't being nasty,
and acknowledge that other people's opinions may be valid and not keep
insisting your own in response to them, and have a constructive
dialogue, and your experience will be different.> No mirrors in your house I guess.

<I still have a lot to learn, and can, most definitely, be wrong.> So do we all have much to learn. I thought that is what the purpose of a forum - to share experiences from others so we can all learn.

I taught my children that when a school subject is easy for them that helping others will also teach them more.

@rgreen - I have been a scotch drinker but the older I get I find that Vodka goes with anything <BUG Grin> I mean BIG, ha

<removed - no longer necessary>

The OP pointed to nothing that was in that list but did mention < If the leaves were not showing signs of wiliting, I did not water them.
Any advice for growing them next year would be appreciated.> Which was totally ignored.

And tell me if you can why SVB would not even be considered in that list?

Funny in the other thread above showing mush in a pic you said SVB without any other info or questions but now <When someone says their stems are "mush", and that they might be overwatering, is absolutely a valid opinion as to the cause of the problem.> When to me at this time of year I would suspect SVB esp. since it happened to what was it 8 plants? That would require some serious over watering esp. since the OP said

<The only disadvantages of growing them with my method was:
1) constant watering (every other day usually) otherwise the leaves
began to wilt - leaving for a weekend down the shore usually meant
coming home to withering foiliage>

I am still laughing over <This is classic Peter (6b SE NY said: <I actually have no opinion on the actual real question posed here.> just something to argue about today perhaps?

I'm with rgreen only I'll take bourbon. This thread has apparently turned into a personal vendetta so:

Going back to the initial question and my initial response:

"Assuming no pest issues then best guess is a combo of over-watering and poor drainage. Watering every 3 days could easily be excessive. That's one big advantage to 5-1-1, it drains exceedingly well and easily compensates for over-watering."

___________

Please note the bold typeface and move-on. In this case the problem was apparently SVB which I assumed any gardener with any experience would have already ruled out before even asking since it is by far the most common cause.

As for my position that over-watering as an exceptionally common gardening problem, it is based on over 50 years in the landscaping and nursery business, 12 years doing Master Gardener consults for the AR Extension Service, plus 50+ years gardening.

That experience plus all the research done on the issue of various plant water needs long ago convinced me that 9 out of 10 home gardeners water their in ground plants with excessive frequency and that more garden plants die as a result of that practice then from all other common plant threats combined.

The many discussion on this and other gardening forums about the problems that practice leads to - shallow rooted, water dependent plants and a sharp increase in fungus diseases - only confirms that belief. So when confronted with inexplainable plant issues encouraging the grower to re-evaluate their watering practices often resolves the problem.

Of course there are are variables involved. That is a given. But the amount and frequency of watering is a big variable far too many over look given the "if a little is good a lot must be better" mentality.

So do as you wish but without at least trying a more restrictive watering approach and seeing first hand the plant improvement that results you'll never know.

Dave

<removed - no longer necessary>

I do agree that over watering can be fatal to many living things including plants but that is/was not the case here so any mention of it is an intentional diversion from the problem and it seems to me that anyone with experience would know that and ask questions to narrow down the problem/solution rather than belaboring over watering in general.

@ Peter - Amen

You know for someone who claims to have all this education, training, and experience, one has to wonder why it is you would leave SVB off the long list of things that would cause mush on cucurbit if one wasn't looking for an intentional diversion and argue about things.

I will note here that digdirt2 admitted the OPs problem was indeed SVB. It seems he just want to argue about things.

----------------------------------------

digdirt2 said: <In this case the problem was apparently SVB which I assumed any gardener
with any experience would have already ruled out before even asking
since it is by far the most common cause.

As for my position that over-watering as an exceptionally common
gardening problem, it is based on over 50 years in the landscaping and
nursery business, 12 years doing Master Gardener consults for the AR
Extension Service, plus 50+ years gardening.

That experience plus all the research done on the issue of various
plant water needs long ago convinced me that 9 out of 10 home gardeners
water their in ground plants with excessive frequency and that more
garden plants die as a result of that practice then from all other
common plant threats combined.

The many discussion on this and other gardening forums about the
problems that practice leads to - shallow rooted, water dependent plants
and a sharp increase in fungus diseases - only confirms that belief.
So when confronted with inexplainable plant issues encouraging the
grower to re-evaluate their watering practices often resolves the
problem.

Of course there are are variables involved. That is a given. But
the amount and frequency of watering is a big variable far too many over
look given the "if a little is good a lot must be better" mentality.>

---------------------------------------------------------------

Why wouldn't you even mention SVB in your mush list with all this experience?

And then come back only to throw mud?

<troll

One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument>

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

I must be missing something. Did some of gumby's post get deleted? Seems like I am seeing just one side of a heated discussion.

Yes it looks like the moderators cleaned up the thread. Kind of crappy though now that there is only one side to the discussion. I will remove my posts.

Pardon me I was out watering my garden but I am not aware that any of my posts were deleted.