Great advice Lilly'smom! Good luck AbbyJoy!

Buying and selling is generally not about establishing a relationship at all. It is about a one time purchase, at which time most people go their separate ways.

As I have said repeatedly, I disclose, but many others have not disclosed to me, for various reasons. I am working on a house now that had all kinds of gas leaks, only discovered when a floor guy was refinishing the hardwoods. He knew that smell.

I did not blame the former owner. She has now died, but she was alive then and just didn't know or remember. She was 94 years old and the original owner. Maybe you would blame and harass her and negotiate further, but I can tell you that no repairs were going to be made and people were lining up to buy. I knew I would have some issues, though I didn't expect that one, honestly. So I dealt with it and replaced all the gas lines.

I actually did form a relationship on this one because I am a reasonable person. The grandkids can't wait until I finish restoring it because they want to see it.

I've been a landlord for a long time as well, and I can tell you that no one knows the condition of every single thing, even in a house that has been owned a long time. Surprises will still arise. Still, I always disclose anything I do know, even if it is that I don't know.

Buying and selling is generally not about establishing a relationship at all. It is about a one time purchase, at which time most people go their separate ways. -

All negotiations are about sending and interpreting signals. It is about establishing a relationship, while you may be thinking of relationship in terms of a lasting friendship I am using relationship as the way two or more people interact with and regard each other.

This is particularly important in purchases with inherent risk. There are risks to buying a house and we feel those risks are mitigated when we do business with people we trust. I don't want to dig through studies to find something that you can read but I am sure there is some Dale Carnegie course on it. Find a friend who has sold cars and ask him why a salesman says things like "lets see what we can do," and, "we can find you something," but when it is bad news he always says things like, "he said we can't do this."

You may not like it, but it does affect you, I think knowing about it helps. I know many people are tempted by the, "it's just business," approach to selling real estate. Which is really funny, because no successful business ever thinks that way - they are all about creating perceived value.

You create your value before you put it on the market. No amount of manipulation of words with the other party is going to make a bit of difference. A finance guy tried that nonsense on me last week. I purchased a vehicle cash and remotely after some hard negotiations, so of course, he is wanting to wring some profit out somewhere. I just laughed out loud when he gave me his extended warranty price, and ended the conversation. It definitely would have made zero difference if he used "we" or "he" or anything else. It's all about the bottom line. It's business.

No one completely trusts the other party in a situation like this. You do your due diligence - a critical step. And you take what you get.

Abby, I think you will be lucky if the inspection report only states roof issues. When we bought the house, we got back an itemized report with so many pictures it was like a textbook. We got worried, even though our feeling from what he did he tell us was that the house was very solid for the age, with minimal settlement. Our realtor laughed and said that this was a good inspection report, and pulled out what he termed a bad one. It was quadruple the size, and the few items we spotted while he was flipping through were re. a stream running through the crawl space and termite and silverfish infestations. Calmed us right back down :) The report was very useful too -- we are still checking items off it.

And BTW, we only asked for the cost of roof replacement in escrow, and it needed that desperately (cracks and swelling in ceiling plaster in several places), and the roof tiles were so granular they were practically decomposing. We ended up asking for a few more items because the sellers weren't willing to comp more than half the cost of the roof -- and the final amount was around the roof price, so not sure what was in the sellers' minds. Their realtor was incompetent, so that might have been the cause.

That being said, you can't control the inspection results and what the buyers will do. Just recheck everything that's said and keep the bottom line in mind.

Consumer value is not created before you put it on the market - value, as we are talking about it, is the point that someone feels the utility gain is worth the cost. Everything we know about economics agrees with me.

Would you feel as comfortable buying a house from someone convicted of three counts of real estate fraud as from someone who you know personally is upstanding? If the answer is no - then you disprove your own statement. If the answer is yes - then you are not rational and that is fine - but you probably shouldn't give advice to people who are.

You provided personal stories that only show how you dealt with people. Which is great except for the fact that we can't tell the difference between someone who is great at selling houses and someone who just thinks they are great at selling houses.

In the end, you believe you are right and that is fine. I think I am correct and that is also fine.

Would *I* buy a house from any Realtor? Not sure how one would retain a license after 3 convictions (?!?), but assuming this implausible situation, yes, I would, and I assure you that I am perfectly rational. I know what I'm doing and do not need a Realtor for assistance for my legal protection in any way.

It is all about the HOUSE and the value of said house. I don't care if Howdy Doody is selling it. If the house is what I want, and the value is there in the house, I'm buying.

I'm perfectly rational, and perfectly competent at real estate transactions. I will protect myself in any documentation. In your ridiculous example, the agent would no longer be licensed.

If someone is not competent in these matters, he should acquire a real estate attorney to assist him.

I wish I was out of this argument, I really do. However, I think it is important for people to see all sides.

My personal experience - I have sold many houses and every one above market value - I include an inspection, before and after pictures of all work completed as well as progress pictures, the receipts and remaining warranty information for any purchased appliance or fixture, a wiring diagram for all known circuits, the exact dates and photos of any leaks or flooding, a list of every paint color and blind manufacturer, and any other information that I think the buyer may ever need.

I am putting a house on the market this month, my realtor wants to list at $50,000 above market value and I am considering it, I would prefer to list at market and let it bid up.

Would *I* buy a house from any Realtor? Not sure how one would retain a license after 3 convictions (?!?) - Who said anything about a realtor? So far as I know the homeowner fills out the disclosure and even criminals are allowed to sell their own house.

Rational, in this discussion, means utility maximization. What you are saying violates utility maximization, therefore you are not rational (at least in the economic sense). The idea is that in any transaction you are trying to make the best deal for yourself.

People who take more risk want more reward. Buying a house from someone that you feel isn't honest is perceived riskier than buying a house from someone that you feel is. Therefore you want more money off. Your assertion that you can know everything wrong with a house before you buy it, is ludicrous. Therefore you have to trust the person selling the house to some extent.

I find life is easier with an example:

A seller knows of 10 things wrong with their house but decide only to disclose 6 of them. They are acting rationally because they believe their house will be perceived as more valuable with less wrong with it.

A buyer then makes an offer but finds all 10 things, they are now disappointed because they believe the seller knew about these things and didn't disclose them. So now they wonder if there were other non-disclosures. They negotiate for a lower price because they are concerned about the increased likelihood of things coming up after the sale.

Both parties in my example are rational. However, if the buyer ignores evidence that the seller isn't trustworthy they become irrational as they are taking more risk for the same reward.

Would the seller have gotten even more money from disclosing everything? I believe they would, but I am not sure. I am sure that all the above is correct but after inspections and initial negotiations buyers may be invested in the house.

You don't have to keep responding to me, Bry, if you "wish you were out of this argument."

There were questions; I answered them. I know my own competencies, and what *I* would do. Your mileage may vary.

You implied it was being sold by a Realtor, not a FSBO, and are now shifting gears. Ok. I would research the FSBO Seller as well, and determine whether to proceed in that case, given the legal implications and based upon what my background check uncovered. Besides, I have a great deal of construction experience and a wide network of contractors after 20 years. If it looks like a problem I don't want to tackle, then I won't, and if I need more information, I call in one of my big guns. Who said anything about *me* "knowing everything that is wrong with a house before I buy it"? No one said that. I can certainly get some pretty solid evidence though, but I already said that once in awhile, something is missed, like the gas lines that were leaking on house I bought recently (all replaced now).

I'm not screaming at or threatening the heirs of the estate, now that the elderly seller has passed. This is what happened and I deal with it.

As a rational person, who doesn't dwell on the tiniest cosmetic or small stuff, I AM rational and my purchases eventually sell for much more than I pay for them. That's economic rationality right there. So (duh) it might be riskier to buy from someone that appears less able to complete the deal or might be more dishonest? Um, yeah. You can bet I'm factoring anything relevant into the price I am willing to pay.

But you complained upthread about minuscule stuff like a nonworking dishwasher, if I recall correctly (my apologies if that was someone else going on about that -long thread and not interested in rereading it all). I don't care about stuff like that, particularly as I generally buy out of estates, so I'm on my own in discovery. I only care about major and expensive problems, you know..the major defects that used to be the only reason you could get out of a Purchase Agreement.

And again, *I* disclose everything. However, everything is not always disclosed to me, for various reasons, especially in an estate situation. I understand the risk of this and am willing to take it for the price I pay. That is eminently rational.

From Stan Z - We got $3300 back. There were several major items, such as a non-working dishwasher and a recent icemaker water leak onto the wood floor.

I would like to underscore $3,300, and then after that you (mid) posted -

The only thing that should ever be requested is a MAJOR defect repair. No, a leaking appliance or a nonworking dishwasher is not a major defect, it is a minor inconvenience of a few hundred dollars at most.

You keep throwing out personal anecdotes to prove you are right and Stan is wrong for getting back $3,300 that you wouldn't have even asked for! I am simply explaining why Stan's reaction is common and why many buyers think like he does.

You lost the rational argument at your first post. You admit that you wouldn't have asked for the discount. You can post 18,411 reasons why you are smarter, better and more rational than Stan Z. In the end, he still has $3300 more than you would have! Essentially you just keep providing evidence of why you meant to come in second place.

Edit: I will not be responding to this line of the thread any more - The above posts were intended to help sellers understand the importance of sending the right signals to buyers. At this point I have presented the reason this happens and alluded to the economic principles involved. The rest is just anecdotal fallacy.

Let's just say Stan must have had a more desperate Seller than I can imagine I would ever be, so it worked out for him. Never in a million years would I give $3300 to someone to buy my house for issues like that, that I can repair for a few hundred, at most. No one is "right" or "wrong" here. There are simply different valid viewpoints and motivations.

Not sure where you are getting this idea that Stan got $3300 back while I would have paid more for the house, since I would likely not ask for the $3300 back. I would have considered any issues in my original offer. I buy houses without contingencies, most of the time. My clean offer may have well been the chosen offer over his offer, if Stan and I were competing on the same house. We just don't know. You are simply fabricating the single potential scenario you can imagine here, as if I am incompetent enough to just overpay, knowing full well that I have repairs to make.

You just immediately to the erroneous assumption that I don't reveal defects. I never said any such thing, nor is it true, but you assumed it was and took off arguing nonexistent issues.

I stand by my words that only major defects should be considered, not piddly little stuff as I mentioned upthread. A small water leak and a nonworking dishwasher (especially if disclosed) are not major issues. You stop the leak. You get a new dishwasher for a few hundred bucks. I'd likely fix the water leak for $50 (could be more if the floor is damaged). I already named some major defects - unusable septic tank, missing support beams, sinking foundation. Those need to be addressed.

Once I had to pay $500 for floor repair due to this ice maker leak issue, which is why I no longer install ice makers (and often not even refrigerators). And I'd slap in a new dishwasher from Craigslist or a clearance sale for a couple hundred, max. I'd be spending that $250- 700 (if floor damage) rather than be happily handing Stan $3300. That's what people who are good with money do. They don't throw it away.

Hi - I'm appreciating the discussion. Now time for me to get help on buyer's requests after inspections, which come to $20,000. The water quality test indicates slightly high iron, slightly low pH of 6.5 and slightly hard - all typical of wells in this area. They're asking for a $2,300 credit to treat all issues. They're asking for new roof prior to closing for approx. $10,000. And $7,500 credit to paint interior.

I just got roofing estimate of $700 to fix nail pops and 2 other minor problems which their roofing inspector did not find, and roofer will "certify" roof for 3 years. (It's 16 years old.) We've got no problem with fixing this. Keeping in mind that they asked for and we agreed to include all farm equipment worth at least $6,000, plus my lawn tractor (worth $1000 and I really regret this), I'm thinking we do roof repair and perhaps contribute under $1,000 toward water treatment, but keep my lawn tractor. And no painting credit.

In considering our response we're keeping in mind that in 2 1/2 weeks before it went under contract we had 11 showings, 3 offers. (My roofing guy is going to talk with his wife about making a back-up offer.)

What are your thoughts? And, since I'm new to posting, please let me know if it is inappropriate to post the above info on a forum. thanks!

A painting credit?!? That's just ridiculous!

Your response sounds reasonable to me. The water treatment is probably bogus too, but a thousand just to get the deal moving forward might be worth it. I might be tempted to add that this is the final offer, just because their starting point is so ridiculous.

You are right to ignore the painting credit. Offer your roof repair and certification only. Don't bring the lawn tractor back up, and just ignore the $1000 credit for water treatment, but DO insist your agent remind them of the lawn tractor and farm equipment when sending back your response.

A painting credit (and maybe a roof credit) should not be negotiated after the initial offer. A painting credit is a completely reasonable request if included as part of the initial offer. However, the inspection contingency is designed for items that were not easily identifiable prior to an inspection. Paint doesn't fit that requirement and in my area you can't cancel a contract for refusal to repair something that a buyer should have been aware of prior to the offer being made. For that same reason replacing a roof because it is 16 years old wouldn't be entertained assuming the age was disclosed.

If it were me, and I had three other offers and lots of prospects, I would counter offer with something reasonable and communicate that I will be contacting the other offers to advise them of the situation. You should talk to your realtor about what exactly a reasonable counter is. I can't gauge how important items are to the buyer.

Paint? heck no. I am not as well versed in buying and selling as other posters, but if they want to re-paint that is their problem -- unless paint is grossly peeling off the walls, but even then, they knew that before making the offer.

I would also be inclined to say that the well water is standard for the area and since not toxic, contaminated, corrosive, undrinkable or otherwise unwise or unhealthy to use, not up to you to fine tune it to their liking. The exception might be if everyone else in the area is treating their water and you are the only one not.

And the roof, just the necessary repairs. You have other offers and I would pursue them.

I once sold a house with a slate roof in fine condition -- 2 slates had been cracked but repaired, based on that (and its age, 50 years) the buyer wanted a new roof. I said no. They bought the house anyway.

I agree with Greg, but I wouldn't rescind the lawn tractor offer - can you even do that at this point as it is in the contract? And their real estate agent should be admonished for letting her clients ask for the painting credit. I do feel for them on the roof issue - knowing a $10k bill is around the corner is a difficult place to be in for someone who needs a low downpayment (I believe you said they are going for an FHA loan) - and a new roof is something you can't be late on fixing.

thank you for fast responses! 2nd roofer is on the way. I think my husband, agent and I are all on the same page on this. I'll let you know!

my agent said buyer's agent was embarrassed to ask for painting credit, but legally has to present what the buyer wants. It's a VA loan - I think I've read (here?) that VA wants minimum 3 year expectancy.

Your buyers are delusional. Water condition is not hazardous. Paint, give me a break. No to everything except the roof repair and $700 seems pretty steep for two minor issues. Is the roofer willing to make repairs for free for the new owners within the 3 year time period for that money? If not, get somebody else. Replacing a couple of shingles because of nail lift penetrations around these parts would be $200, max.

No to paint, no to the roof beyond the repairs you found. The water issue might be harder to argue, in that even if it is the area water, it's not exactly ideal (or seems not to be, I don't know what the numbers you have presented mean). Maybe it's the first time the buyers are looking at a house with a well and they don't know what to be concerned about? If so, a little education might help. It may also be worth giving the buyers a credit for that just to close the deal. It's true you have other offers, but this is the one in progress, and presumably you chose them for a reason. Of course, if they are really keen on the rest of the stuff, it may be better to try to deal with somebody else.

How are the buyers expecting you to raise the Ph of the well water?

Keep in mind that you probably have more leverage than they do right now, given the fact that you had three prior offers. Let them know that you are serious with your responses and will be persuing back up offers.

btw, the tractor and farm equipment is not in the contract, it's a separate bill of sale for $0, as my agent said VA won't allow it in the contract.

change pH with a calcite neutralizer

"btw, the tractor and farm equipment is not in the contract, it's a
separate bill of sale for $0, as my agent said VA won't allow it in the
contract."

And change the consideration from no consideration to, say, $1. ;-)

is it appropriate for my agent to contact anyone while we're in due diligence?

Who do you mean by "anyone"?

Anyone who has made an offer and/or anyone who has contacted the realtor and been told the property is "pending"/under contract.

He can contact the agents of the people who made offers and alert that there may be issues with the contract. He shouldn't contact the would-be buyers directly. He (she?) should be in contact with other agents in the office with an alert, too. And a verbal to other agents he knows. I would not want anything put in writing, tho.

With all due respect to all the people above, you shouldn't use a bunch of internet strangers to tell you what your counter offer should be. We don't know the specifics of your area, your price and how that relates to your area, your motivation, the buyer's motivation, the validity of the other offers, etc.

Personally I would be inclined to fix the roof and offer a strong cash allowance for the water problem (something closer to the $2,000 range). Whether or not the water is really a health issue is beside the point, if the buyers believe it is, it can kill the deal. The other issues are not health concerns and I would be more willing to hold fast to them.

I often tell my realtor what I want him/her to tell the other agent. In this case I would say - we would really like the sellers to have the house and we hope they really want it, but we had other strong offers who understood the condition of the roof and the paint before they made the offer. So while we really want to work with the buyers we are not going to replace the roof or give a paint allowance.

But again - I am projecting my personal and financial situation onto you. You have a realtor, I would heed their advice before ours.

Thanks everyone, the input has been very helpful. One of my roofer's opinions was 3 years, the other 2, so roof is nearing end of its life. I can certainly understand their request. I'm getting second opinion on water today. And the free farm and lawn equipment figures into our decision, though not sure about theirs. New deadline is tomorrow.

I would only fix the roof and nothing more.

Or tell them you'll give them a 6k credit for the roof but the farm equipment is no longer for sale. ;) Also I would say the price of the roof nearing it's end life was reflected in your asking price.

The water issue is a non issue and the painting is just ridiculous. And the advice to alert the other agents quietly is good advice.

"Now time for me to get help on buyer's requests after inspections,
which come to $20,000. The water quality test indicates slightly high
iron, slightly low pH of 6.5 and slightly hard - all typical of wells in
this area. They're asking for a $2,300 credit to treat all issues.
They're asking for new roof prior to closing for approx. $10,000. And
$7,500 credit to paint interior."

Your buyers are ridiculous. I would laugh out loud at a $20,000 request. You get the water that is accessible in the area. You don't control the water quality or hardness. Let them treat it if they don't like it. So long as your equipment is functional to deliver water, you have met your responsibility with reference to the water. You have no further obligation to deliver the type and composition of water that the Buyer prefers. Give me a break.

They SAW the paint upon arrival. The paint is not a concealed "defect", nor a major defect of any kind. Let them repaint the house if they want. They didn't seriously think you would pay thousands of dollars for them to have their specific paint preferences. LOL

I would offer to have a qualified roofer repair the nail pops and that is it. I would also retract the sales of the equipment and sell that separately (I don't recall your details on this, but if they were included in the original Purchase Agreement, this is what I would do). Period. They don't like it? They can move along and you can deal with the next offer. Make sure to tell your agent to reiterate that you have received several offers and tie down the response time to 24 hours.

I certainly don't want to start another back and forth, but if you agreed to the farm equipment before then leave it in. It is the right thing to do. Feel free to remind them that you are already making several concessions to them regarding the equipment but don't get upset and start taking away toys like they are 10 years old.

thanks bry - I understand what you're saying, but there is a good market for farm equipment - we don't need it when we move but we could certainly sell it to compensate for a credit we might have to give. Equipment is in a separate bill of sale that is contingent on house closing. And - my agent says she's having quite a lot of dialog with buyer's agent, and the main issue for buyer is the painting credit! They're saying they'll walk if they don't get it! And I don't get it - 1/3 house was painted recently with some other upgrades, and the remaining paint looks fine! It seems to me it would be a heck of a lot easier to find a painter than to research and purchase farm equipment that you're not familiar with . . . (they've asked for lessons before we move). Boy this is crazy.

Maybe they just want 7 thousand dollars, but are shy to ask?:)

I never encountered such thing before. Maddening even to read about.

Thinking more about this, many of our walls are "textured" done by our stucco guy. I bet the exorbinant painting credit they're requesting is because they want smooth walls. I've been told the painting should be around $3,500. TBC

TBC = to be continued

I think you and some of the posters are making this a bit more dificult than it needs to be. YOU have the leverage here, unless you NEED to move on the specified closing date. You had three other offers, for Pete's sake! My advice would be to explain to them something to the like of what Bry911 said a few posts up, and that you will be reasonable with repairs by fixing the roof or you will be moving on to the other buyers. I would have already tried to have gotten a back up contract from at least one of the other buyers. Like I have already said, you have more leverage than they do at this moment, unless your timing dictates that you need to get out on this specific closing date.

Tell them if they intend to walk because of paint then good luck to them

how old is the house? When I saw the paint cost I thought maybe they were worried about lead.

Personally I try to factor paint into my offers if I think I might need to do that, but it sounds more like the paint is just one of many things for them. Really you shouldn't worry about what they are asking for the credit for, but if you feel comfortable with that amount of concession. Then just offer a generalized credit and let them do what they want whether its the water or paint or roof.

I hate to bring this up - maybe I am not understanding the deal, but I don't think you can do a paint credit on a V.A. loan anyway. I thought that you could offer a price reduction and pay closing costs for V.A. loans and no other consideration was allowed to be part of the deal.

Technically, even your farm equipment deal is probably not allowed. You had to put it on the side because V.A. doesn't allow funds for V.A. loans to be used for the purchase of anything other than the residence. This means that furniture and farm equipment would need a separate deal with separate consideration. An allowance isn't allowed so far as I know.

Now no one really gives a crap about $1,000 changing hands under the table. However, they will care about a $7,000 painting credit and I thought you had to sign something when closing that everything that was part of the deal is represented in the settlement statement.

This sounds like a classic case of buyer's regret. Either they feel they will be overpaying by $5-10k, or they realize they won't have enough cash at closing. Perhaps an attorney or RE agent can step in, but I don't see how they can legally ask for a painting credit - as I understand it the inspection is to uncover mechanical/structural/environmental items which were either unknown or undisclosed to the buyer at the time the offer was made. They could have made a painting credit a condition of their original offer, but it's not up for discussion once a contract has been signed.

Time to have your agent contact the others who made offers. I have a very low tolerance for BS & would tell the "buyers" to put their shoes on and get walking.

The due diligence period ends tonight, we're waiting on their response

And, they terminated. We'll repair the roof and add some targeted marketing to horse people, and try it again. Thanks everyone

Sorry to hear that, but maybe its for the best as this buyer was becoming a PITA.

I'm sorry AbbyJoy.

Wish you luck. Do you feel that you got good/helpful advice here?

Is you agent chasing down the other buyers that made offers?

Good job on standing your ground during a very emotional, confusing time.