Aileen (Totoro): You are a physician, and you ask fantastic questions !! My family is seeing an PA (Phycisian assistant) for check-ups, we all like him since he asks lots of intelligent questions, both to detect problems, and to give us choices. The best health-care provider is one that ask the patient lots of questions, and listens well.

I read a book about a father bringing a son with severe salmonella. Instead of just merely treating the boy, the physician asked questions, what did he eat, what type of pet he had. The father answered it's a turtle, which turned out to be the cause of salmonella.

I'm in zone 5a, I fertilized with sulfate of potash and chicken manure mid-Sept, so it's not too late if you do it now. The coop-poop brand has NPK 2-4-3, and I added sulfate of potash to UP the potassium ... Evelyn immediately sent a basal shoot TWICE thicker than the existing shoot. Same with Crown Princess Mag with soluble kelp & sulfate of potash .. made all the stems thicker. I honestly don't see the winter killing those sturdy shoots. I killed Centifolia Le Nia Rias recently, which I put lots of high-potassium red-lava rocks, the stems are so hard & thick like steel, I had to use a stronger chopper.

Sulfate of potash (potassium) and 8% of calcium in chicken manure helps to THICKEN the root. Thick root means better winter-survival. It's the NITROGEN which you don't want to supply, but any nutrients which benefit the root is fair game: calcium & potassium & phosphorus. I choose coop-poop NPK 2-4-3, since nitrogen is a 2, quite low.

Phosphorus application now makes sense, since phosphorus moves VERY SLOWLY (a 1 mobility, compared to 10 mobility in nitrogen). It takes 1 year before it goes down to a few inches. Phosphorus now, means more availability to work with nitrogen in early spring for more branching. Phosphorus is for branching of root and stem, plants that lack phosphorus have "one-cane-wonder".

What causes winter-kill of roots? 1) Rain or excessive watering right when the weather drops below freezing (32 F, or 0 C). Roots survive cold temp. better when it's on the dry side going into the winter, rather than soaking wet, according to University of Vermont. Dry-cold is more bearable for roots than freezing ice which crack the root. Same here, I would rather have dry socks to wear, than wet socks in freezing temp.

The dumb-thing I did right before last winter: empty my rain-barrel on Sonia Rykiel when it's freezing. It died. Dry-cold is more tolerable than freezing-ice at root-level. The down-pour of rain in Dec., then freezing temp killed many trees around the neighborhood, along with Knock-outs.

Another winter-kill of roots is dry early spring with zero melted snow. These dry roots coming into the spring with folks dumping salty fertilizer on-top. Salt and dry weather kills the tiny feeder-roots that come out in early spring.

The best winter-survival I witnessed was done by a neighbor when we were in our last acidic clay house: she piled up dry wood-chips up to a foot around her hybrid tea roses. Hers all survived that brutal winter, but my roses did bad with soaking wet leaves dumped on top: black canker and blackspot in spring.

For loamy and sandy soil: the wet leaves would work, but not with acidic clay like my last house. Keeping roots damp, but not soaking wet is achieved through dry & fibrous topping above. Last year my roses topped with dry alfalfa hay survived winter much better than those with 6" of wet leaves on top.

I can see topping with leaves AFTER the ground freeze in Dec., to keep roots slightly moist in a dry winter. But topping with leaves before the ground freeze is risky, if there's tons of icy rain. Wet roots that freeze = cracking and death.

Thanks so much for the explanation about fertilizers. I did not do much winter protection of my newly planted roses last year (except for apply less than an inch of new mulch) and all my roses survived the winter. Our winters are pretty wet and it does not get that cold. I might have just gotten lucky because in late January we had a blizzard which dropped 4 ft of snow (highly unsual) and that took a month to melt.

Strawchicago, I'm so glad I found this. I had the same question as totoro. Almost all my roses are putting on new growth as I'm telling them to stop it! How do you discourage this, other than by not fertilizing? I have not fertilized since late August. I have a question about chicken manure posted elsewhere because I'm not sure how to use it. I am surprised it isn't too late if I do that right away, which makes sense since it supplies nitrogen to the roots.

Most of all, I am grateful to know that I shouldn't water just prior to the ground freezing. I have always thought the opposite. Trying to coordinate my last watering to my husband blowing out the pipes before freezing isn't always possible since I water 130 roses by hand.

Re: the neighbor using dry wood chips. Did she pile them up early spring? How close to the base of the rose? I've always tried to keep mulch away from the base, but not sure why. My beds are mulched with wood chips, and now in the process of adding new layer. Should I wait until ground freezes? Soil is heavy clay, but planting holes are mostly composted material with amendments.

Flowearemusic: Regarding my neighbor in my last garden of acidic soft clay: she piled up CHUNKY HARD wood-chips around her roses a week before Thanksgiving .. that's when we get our killing frost, or before the ground freezes. HARD wood is from various trees like ash, elm, oak, which decompose to slightly alkaline pH.

SOFT wood is from gymnosperm trees such as conifers, pine, fir which STAY ACIDIC and slow to decompose. My neighbor used dry & alkaline wood-chips and all her roses survived, versus I used acidic pine-bark, and acidic wet leaves to winterize, and ended up with dead roses, black canker & blackspots in spring.

Using high potassium fertilizer (sulfate of potash) will stop roses from growing. UP the potassium, and you'll push down the nitrogen (which cause growth). Nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium all compete for the same absorption in plants. Too much nitrogen and you'll get too many leaves, and zero blooms. Too much potassium and you'll get tough & strong stems, plus flowers, but very little leaves. Phosphorus is for root growth and branching.

Folks say to stop fertilizing in mid-August, and I disagree. I stop fertilizing my pots in mid-August, and today October 8, I transferred 2 roses from pots into the ground, the roots were like alfalfa sprouts, less than 1 gallon, pathetic !!

Compare that to 2012 when I broke the rule and fertilized with MiracleGro Soluble for roses NPK 18-24-16, plus granular chicken manure on top, and when I took Annie L. McDowell in mid-November, the roots were SOLID 2-GALLON, that rose survived zone 5a winter easily.

So when folks say to stop fertilizing, that means to stop nitrogen or top-growth, but the roots still need to be more solid with calcium, potassium, and phosphorus & trace elements in chicken manure. Solid root = better winter survival. Roots have a better chance of surviving winter if it's thick & chunky & woody like Dr. Huey, rather than alfalfa sprouts as in own-roots.

I will go over this a few time so it stays in my brain. I was under the assumption that nitrogen produced healthier roots, not top-growth. Seems I've had a lot of misconceptions. As for fertilizing - everyone here (northeast WA) stops fertilizing in-ground roses by August. I push it a little by stopping late Aug. to early Sept. I am grateful to know I can continue to feed the roots, which makes sense. All my roses are own root except 2. I'm copying your reply to my garden notes. I'll need it. I will add that I used my pine bark mulch over my entire garden last year and didn't lose any roses for the first time ever. I kept it outside the well around each rose. Thank you, strawchicago, for your help.