you could probably put a shower rig over the bathtub by yourself. I'd hesitate on moving a sink by myself. How handy are you?

Congratulations on your first home!

Thanks for the reply! The kitchen really needs a remodeling. The bathroom could also use it but it's workable and less unattractive then the kitchen. The floor is old and unattractive. The sink is actually pretty cool and in good condition. I'm not sure what benefit I get by removing a tub and toilet other than having my own. Perhaps the toilet could be replaced with something more stylish. The floor needs to be redone and the walls are 3/4 tile and then white paint. It's in decent condition but it all looks 1950s/1960s.

There is also a separate shower in decent condition, tiled, and can use a new shower fixture. But I figure that if I'm doing the kitchen and part of the bathroom I might as well do the whole job right, top down.

Talk to other coop owners in your building for referrals. They can tell you about the formal process and requirements for your building.

Thanks - I'm not worried about the formal process, which is (a) licensed and insured workers/contractors; and (b) submission of renovation plans which usually get approved within a week. The difficult part is the unknown - trying to list all the considerations I may have in renovating an old apartment and updating it for new features, appliances, electrical needs, wired/wireless considerations, etc.

Virtually none of what I need is site specific. I'm looking for tips and a checklist of items that anyone who has renovated an older apartment might put on their to do list of what they realize should be checked off before beginning a job. I've already put one down, which is putting in networking cables while you rewire (and the upgraded type these days), as well as coaxial connectors if you're looking to put cable in the rest of the house.

Updating the electricity may not be possible without the building itself upgrading it's entire service. And that is why all of that is site specific to your particular building. There is nothing universal about how it was constructed. Other than it will require licensed, insured, professionals to deal with multi family. Start talking to your neighbors. Most of those places have gas ranges for a reason, and it ain't because that's so hip.

Well you can't just walk into a building and suddenly know the electricity can't be upgraded by osmosis. Every site I have been to recommends a basic list of items to consider and check. I already have a good start with a list about 2 dozen items long. I thought that a conversation here with others who have done the same regarding old apartments might yield something more useful.

I don't know what it's like in your area but in New York your neighbors don't exactly throw you a big building party. :) Many of them also haven't completely upgraded their apartments and many haven't thought about many modern considerations, such as wiring the apartment for coax and networking.

My experience tells me that you never walk into an important piece of work without having a good amount of basic knowledge to appreciate the work and also trusting someone else 100% to do things properly.

Apartments aren't Legos that can be magically rearranged. Systems and architectural constraints determine if anything on your list is remotely realistic. 40 amp service? You're not ''upgrading'' anything. 60 amp service? Still questionable. 200 amps? Now we're talking. But, your building itself tells you what can be accomplished. And that should have been determined before purchase. There is no substitute to a physical inspection of the site by a professional. And no list of anything real can be developed without it.

No one is talking about rearranging anything. What I've learned from years of constructing computer networks is that it's not a good idea to hire professionals that make something that should be easily understood into something very complicated that can only be appreciated by licensed professionals - after being paid. Of course I'd have someone look but you're helpless if you don't have your own basic list and at the mercy of someone you can only hope really knows what they are doing.

Upgrading means improvement. You can resort to semantics but the plain meaning is clear. If you don't have enough outlets in rooms, the right type of outlets (grounding - you can do that, right?) or they aren't in great condition you upgrade them. This isn't rocket science. I'll go back to the list I was compiling since clearly it's not possible to put together a basic checklist of important items that anyone would probably want to run through when updating an older home.

You simply aren't understanding that if the building itself has limited service, there can be no upgrading. It's a hardware problem.

You might want to check
https://sweeten.com
No I don't work nor am I related to them.
Good luck!

First figure out your budget. Do you have $2k, $20k or $200k? Next prioritize your improvements. Are you more concerned with form or function? Public areas or private? Surfaces or infrastructure? Here are a few things to consider as you figure this all out:

• Moving plumbing is expensive, and in a multi-family building it could be very difficult
• Moving gas lines -- see moving plumbing
• Moving/upgrading electrical is expensive and, as Sophie points out, is dependent on the building's service
• You probably have lead and asbestos in walls, floors and duct work. It is astronomically expensive to remove, so is best left undisturbed

It sounds like you have a fully functional, but somewhat out-of-date apartment. Having owned seven different properties in three regions of the country over a 35 year span, here's my advice:

Paint everything, including closets, before you move in. Refinish the hardwood floors, but only if they really need it -- you can only do it so many times before they must be replaced ($$$). Put up some inexpensive window coverings if needed. Buy some cozy bed linens. Then live in the space for a year. Notice the light and the shadows. Notice the view as the seasons change. Notice where you spend your time at different times of day. Notice what really, really bugs you after living there awhile, and what turns out to be better than you thought.

Familiarize yourself with the building CC&R's (or equivalent). Attend meetings of the co-op board; read the meeting minutes from the past year. Schmooze your next door neighbors. Ask questions. Figure out the lay of the land.

Make an IdeaBook on Houzz for every room plus the entry and hallway. Visit kitchen showrooms, plumbing showrooms, furniture stores, consignment stores and model homes. Figure out your style.

After a year you'll be ready to plunge in because you'll have a budget, a realistic vision and an idea of what things cost. Take your time. Have fun. It will be worth the wait. Congrats on your new home, Citidan.

I really appreciate the previous comment of waiting a while before you do too much. I know it's so exciting, but if you wait on any big changes, you will avoid regrets and sometimes, expensive mistakes. Painting before you move in is a great idea too!

@einportlandor - While it's not what I was seeking, that is a great amount of excellent advice. I am fortunate to have someone else who is living in the exact same line above me (for 7 years) who did a renovation who can provide some guidance. But you're right - I need to experience it for myself. I planned to move in for 2-3 months, move in only necessities with no major furniture (high quality air bed, computer desk and chair, collapsible dining table and chairs, big but light TV which will sit on a small stand.) This way when I'm ready, there won't be much to move out that can't be done in 1-2 trips by car.
I already know I'll be spending the most time in the living room and second BR / office, which are in the best condition and thankfully the most naturally well lit rooms. I'm certainly more interested in function over form.

• Floor - It's actually acceptable except for a 4 foot half moon shaped area near the steam in the bedroom. It is water damage from a leaky radiator. It doesn't look good and the wood is whitish. But it doesn't seem very rotted, still solid, and looks like it could be sanded and finished. Obviously even a photo wouldn't substitute personal inspection. I may hold off and just live in the place because the rest of the room and apartment has wood floors in quite good condition.

• Walls - Unless I decide to change the color (and perhaps paint the molding a different color), they are surprisingly quite clean. Great idea on the window coverings. Blinds are on every window but there is no drapery. That could be a very effective minor addition.

• Appearance - What the kitchen and bathroom REALLY need are a solid cleaning top down! It was a long time rental. Disappointing is the sloppy job putting in the oven in the kitchen, as the wood bracing the stove in the back is visible... but I'll live with it.

There are still some question marks as to scope, e.g. punch a small window between kitchen and living room, etc. I'll need to get a few more ideas. But I am trying to get a short list of items that almost everyone does when updating old construction. As I mentioned, given the time periods there are different considerations that were taken into account for each time period, e.g. many old buildings may not have piping designed for in unit washer driers. I learned a lot by reading other discussions about updating New York apartments.

Thanks again. Good advice and not rushing into this.

I live in a 1928 house, so understand the limitations of older buildings. Here are a few ideas.

Most older places need additional storage, so be sure to think that through at every step -- future buyers will love it. Closet systems can greatly expand your storage.

If you can fit a small washer/dryer in somewhere, do it -- many New Yorkers have done this so it would be something you can investigate. Again, big selling point and a convenience for you.

Look for small sized appliances for the kitchen, assuming it's a typical tiny NYC kitchen. A small, deep sink is a good trade-off, too. Cabinets to the ceiling (storage) and good lighting. Try to squeeze in a pantry.

In the bathroom, pedestal sinks are affordable and charming BUT they provide zero work or storage space in a small room. Consider a vanity.

The damaged hardwood floors can probably be repaired by a skilled worker, but I'd wait until you need other floor work done and have it fixed then.

Don't forget to make it a home . . . art, rugs, decent kitchen supplies, a comfy bed . . . a place you want to come home to every day. Make it yours.

Citadan,
It is vital in NYC to become friends with the super and maintenance people of your building. Extra tips during the holidays help. They can inform you of the troubles with the building, idiosyncrasies with plaster, your own unit that were not revealed at closing, issues with Co-op Board members, etc.

@einportlandor - Great post and thank you! You completely understand from where I'm coming.

The closet space in this place is incredible. More closets than rooms, deep, big and thankfully the full height of the high ceilings. I know I'd like a shoe system but you've given me a whole lot more to consider and browse.

You nailed the bathroom perfectly. It's "big" by NY standards with a bathtub and a separate shower. But the rest of the room isn't huge by any means. While you can fit a nice cabinet above the toilet and mirror/medicine cabinet over the sink, that's about it. You just talked me out of the gorgeous vanity sink I saw in another apartment. Looks fantastic but won't be able to store all the items I'd usually store in a bathroom (drain cleaner, bowl cleaner, etc.) Wow... so true!!!

Washer Dryer - I've heard this before and great suggestion, thank you for confirming. Not sure I'll do this because the laundry room is generally empty (many machines for relatively small number of apartments.) That's unusual (and good.) Also I'll need to find it if I can install according to the rules and, if so, where in the apartment it might be allowed (like replacing the shower, which already has a drain.)

Kitchen - thanks. I noticed that the sink seemed large. Your suggestion is great and can be done with granite/quartz countertops. This will create more counter space in the 11'x9' kitchen. (To those who don't know, that's actually very nice sized in NY.) One limitation is having a heater by the window with a fire escape. I've seen someone rip out the heater and put in a counter, not sure whether that was really allowed (or smart.) Counters to the ceiling will be very impressive but I've seen some not extend that far, leaving a foot or two of space above. Not sure why.

And thanks for the confirm on the floor. I had surmised the same and figured it's not worth doing until the rest is done. Thanks for the additional list, much of which I have from my previous place but needed a place like this to really do justice. :) Yes, in New York you really need rugs (and also because most buildings require them!)

Thanks so much for your input! Renovating older pre-war homes is challenging but I find them irresistibly charming. :)

Having renovated 2 apartments in NYC, you can expect to spend much more than you can even imagine. I think you should start talking to contractors and get a feel for how much labor will cost. That may help you decide what you want to change now versus later. Unless the layout of the kitchen really doesn't work, I wouldn't switch the sink and the stove. If the stove is gas, you'll need city permits and approvals to move the gas line.

Sounds like you found a great place! Lucky you!

I have used this ironing method many times to get white water stains out of wood furniture. It's worth a try on your floor. http://www.bobvila.com/articles/how-to-remove-water-stains-from-wood/#.WAGRVcmSA4c

The LIABILITY potential is far too great when you share walls, plumbing and electricity to do ANYTHING involving plumbing or electricity with anyone but a licensed contractor and licensed subs and board approval of that person. If you don't believe that, I will share the story of how my sisters neighbor burned 14 people along with my sister out of their homes with an inept brother working on her bath with a blow torch, and the water shut off to the building to accomplish the task. The rebuild took 18 months and several re assessments and more legal tangles than you can imagine. That resident and her brother have fled the state of NY. Tread VERY, very carefully. And the building was built in the sixties.................

@Jan - Thank you for the advice that is 100% accurate for lawsuit happy NY. No intention whatsoever of doing any heavy lifting without licensed professionals. It's unfortunately a cost of living here but the wiser way to do it. I've read about leaks that sprung years later and the lawsuits that followed.

@vbilenker - Thanks. I expect to have the contractors take a look at the place later this week or next week but wanted to educate myself first to better know what to ask and appear at least somewhat knowledgeable for conversation.

• Stove/Sink move - Thanks. I'm convinced now that while I don't care for the stove against the wall next to the window (and radiator in front), it's probably too much money and work. Perhaps the window space is best left empty so that I can create a counter top opposite the stove with 2-3 stools under so that I can have an eat-in-kitchen area and enjoy the window lighting.

Everyone, thanks so much educating me before having the contractors over and the closing. I'm very excited and realize that getting every specific dimension down will be required for options. What's also nice is that this older apartment has significant potential to be realized and so many of you kind people to help give me ideas, advice and assistance in getting as much right.

Hi CitiDan,

I've done several renovations in NYC and it even as a professional issues always arise. If you're not hiring a designer walk through with a few contractors (2-3) to get their takes on the space.

I just gutted a place that wasn't renovated since 1960 and we had major electrical work to do, that you may want to factor that in. You'll likely also have to do an asbestos test as well, if removing the floors. Every project is different and every home has it's own quirks.

Good Luck!

Tina

Tina - thanks for adding to the conversation. I'm not sure I'm ready for the designer and still trying to identify the list of "major flaws" I'll need to take into consideration when renovating an apartment built 80 years ago. While I'm sure the contractors will provide rough, ballpark estimates, it's not useful unless I know that the important things are included - such as the electrical. Since no one can point to a list, I'll provide one of just the electrical so that others might be able to benefit from what I've discovered:

1) Too few outlets: Must check each room to see how many and locations. Also note strategic areas you may think should include them, such as considering #2.

2) No ceiling lighting: I noticed that the largest room in the apartment has no ceiling lighting and was probably lit with a floor lamp.

3) Lack of grounded outlets: If only two prong, wiring will also certainly need to be checked to determine need for replacement.

4) Fuse box or circuit breaker: This is a good start to have an idea just how ancient the electrical system may be. If it's a fuse box, don't be surprised to find out other things you need to replace.I'm trying to not only gauge how much work it will be but also be prepared for sticker shock and time I may need to be out of the apartment. While renovation should primarily be only kitchen and bathroom along with floors being finished, this may entail additional work in other rooms that may add more than I hoped for budget and time. Uncertain still and will do my full inspection imminently, armed with more knowledge to review and questions to ask the contractors.

Designers: This is the part that I'm uncertain in terms of need and value. As it's a first renovation, I'm first trying to get a handle on expectations of the hardest dirty work. Getting a handle on this too because some of the attempts I've seen to open up space really don't work, at least they don't to me. I have a pretty good idea architecturally but am open for ideas and education on this part.

I've done a number of gut renovations on condos--one a pre-War coop in downtown Chicago. I don't know what your anticipated budget/scope is, but I would never undertake any work without consulting an architect/designer first. A good designer can envision and suggest things that you or any contractor would never think of, things that would greatly enhance your space, even if you don't do all of them initially. My experience with contractors, even good ones, is that they will do what is easiest for them, not what is best architecturally.

Hello Citidan,

Just found this thread, would love to know how your coop turned out, and what (if any) obstacles you had with your board?

I know this thread is old, but as a three-time purchaser/renovator of old co-op building homes, I want to add my experience and dispel some of the gloomy outlook here. My first renovation was in an 1880s building in Brooklyn, the second a 1920s, the third and current a 1946. All co-ops. The first had been a tenement and at one point in the '70s was akin to section 8 housing, I understand, however new walls, floors and electric had been put in when it converted to a co-op in the 1980s. I renovated both bath and kitchen and had walk-ins and built-ins made. The next was similar to the first — it had been a rental many years before converting to a co-op with a major renovation in the '80s (a time when co-op conversions were rampant in NYC). My dad helped me renovate the first. The second, I got lucky and found a young contractor hungry for work whose bid was very reasonable. He turned out to be a gem and I still hire him today. Neither of these old homes had what I'd call horrible surprises behind the walls. My current building was always a co-op and very well-maintained. When we gut renovated the bathroom there were zero problems behind the walls or in the floor joists — it was incredibly soundly built, with masonry walls. The way most people talk about old buildings will have you believe that's not possible, but it is. The electric had been redone in the '80s and there were even two breakers in the panel that were unused, so room for growth. The floors were hardwoods with some pet damage that cost about $2k to have fixed and refinished. They look gorgeous now.

What you need to do in a case like yours before you move in is to survey your electrical outlets/lighting to see if it meets your needs and have an electrician in to check the electrical panel; skim-coat the walls if they are plaster and at all crumbly or wavy (can be expensive but the results are stunning and you'll have it for life); paint the walls and ceiling; refinish the floors if needed. These are all things that are easier to do when the place is empty and later you'll be glad you did. If the bathroom and kitchen are ugly and you know you can't live with them, renovate before you move in. Some kitchens, however, are fine with a bit of paint and new countertops and some bathrooms just need tub resurfacing, new flooring, and a new vanity to be livable. There's something to be said for living in a home a while. It will tell you what it needs.