Could you post a picture (clearer if possible) with a coin or something so we can see the size of the particles?

hope these pictures look a little better of the Mulch that is the bottom. The others are Grit, Turface and Reptibark... Large Reptibark bags cost close to $30.00.

Therefore why I'm hoping I can use this Mulch instead.

The mulch looks a bit too decomposed to be honest.

OK, I have a shop I can go to to pick up a different one. I will post pics of their product tomorrow.

Thanks for taking time out and commenting on the mulch, It has been very helpful. Gives me an idea that this one cannot be used.

I pick this up from a different shop in Houston. What about this product? I'm getting a little discouraged not being able to get the right consistency of what the Bark.

I have gone to numerous places and I'm not having luck finding a good PB.

I have done more running around for the PB and this came from a shop that had this product...

Take a look at this one and let me know if this will work.

I'm getting a little discouraged that I may not be able to find something suitable to make my mixes with.

I sifted this mulch with a 1/4' screen.. I place a dime there to show the size to help look at what size this is. Sorry for the glare from the dime...All pics are from the same bag.

Looks like the last picture is the fraction larger than 1/4" or is it the unsifted bark? Are the other pics of the fraction smaller than 1/4"? It contains quite a bit of sapwood (those long lightly coloured sticks). In a pinch you can make this work by picking out the larger sapwood as long as it is not a major portion of the bark. For 511 I use a 1/2 inch screen. For gritty 1/4" and 1/8" screen.

The first and second pic are sifted with 1/4" screen. The last pic with my hand in the pic is all unsifted straight out of the bag.

Weird thing is, upon searching & reading other peoples postings on here... I came across one where they bought this same product and looked GREAT and even Al commented in their post of how good this product looked straight out of the bag without sifting.

So, I took the liberty and went to the same location they bought this same product from, but this does not look nowhere near what they showed on their post. I can't understand why all the Mulches I am coming across are not favorable to what is needed for the mix.

Sandra: That is marketing/branding at work. Pine bark mulch has become a general term over time. It contains some bark but often it contains a lot of shredded sapwood. You can make out that stuff if you see lots of long sticks or fibrous stuff. We used to get good quality bark from HD and Lowes a few years back. Now it is mostly the stuff that you posted. Recently I found a new source. A local Agway carries that stuff. Actually I had to order it and it is 100% bark. Check out your local Agway if there is one.

Check with area landscaping nurseries to see if they carry 40 pound bags of 'soil conditioner'. This is a a ground pine bark product with particles sized about 1/4 inch. Not usually available in 'box' stores. This is what I have used in my soil mixes for years. Also makes a superior mulch for 'show off' type garden beds. Should cost about $4.00 a bag.

Great! I have a couple places down the street from me. I never thought to look there. I will definitely check them out tomorrow. I truly appreciate you taking time out to read my stuff. I have searched so many places and have yet to get it right..Their mulches are either to large or to fine to work with. Its getting frustrating running all over Houston and other areas looking to find what will work.
I truly appreciate your help.
Thanks

Sandra, don't be dismayed ; there are about a million frustrated posts about bark fines that go from perfect to awful from one season to the next, or are perfect in the northeast and terrible in the southwest. There don't seem to be any standards for materials like this, so it's rare to find a usable product on the first try.

I don't mean to criticize, and I hope someone will straighten me out if I'm wrong, but the replies to Sandra's questions are very different than what I've put together about bark fines for 5-1-1. From what I've read of Al's posts and my own bark-sifting experiment, Sandra might even get perfect results with a minor amount of work.

For instance, here's the picture Al has posted in several places of examples of bark for both gritty and 5-1-1, in which his example of an ideal mulch looks like what Sandra showed in her first pictures.

And here's a quote explaining the picture; note that Al's example of 5-1-1 bark looks much like Sandra's first pictures:

"What you see at the top is ideal for the 5:1:1 mix. The other two bark components would be just right in the gritty mix."

Another quote:

"For the 5:1:1 mix, fine is dust to dime-size.

For the gritty mix, fine is 1/8 - 1/4" pieces. Fir bark works very well in the gritty mix (what I use) and you might find it prescreened.

For the 5:1:1 mix, I'd prefer no more than a 10% presence of extremely fine (bark) material if I'm using peat. If I eliminate the peat, I think up to 20% is a good guess." (my emphasis)

Before finding those quotes and others like them I thought the bag of fir bark mulch from HD was almost unusable based on recent discussions and examples of member's mixes, but after more reading I decided to figure it out for myself.

I'd already broken up or removed sapwood and pieces that were bigger than 1/2 inches from three gallons of the mulch, which only removed a cup or so. I sifted two cups of the remainder through a 1/8" colander, and ended up with 4 ounces of particles under 1/8" and a little over 12 ounces of particles 1/8" or bigger (the total is bigger than 2 cups because the super-fines fill in voids).

Here's a picture. Top left is unsifted, bottom left is pieces between 1/8" and 1/2", and right is pieces under 1/8".

Based on Al's comments and pictures, this mulch is perfect for 5-1-1 with very minimal processing if I leave the peat out and sift out a small amount of super-fines, which makes me wonder if Sandra should sift some of her composted bark to see whether it might be similar to Al's recommendation.

Am I up in the night, as they say here in Utah?

Am I up in the night ...

heavens no … research cannot be measured/shared in less than time/effort spent

Litterbuggy - I read the same material you posted here from Al's posts, therefore I to believed the mulch I have pisted on my first pics was going to work for the 5:1:1 mix.
The Pine looked like it could be used, just have to take out any sapwood. I liked that mulch versus the second brand I purchased.
I think I am going to give that one a shot & use it for my 5:1:1 mix.
Like they say "trial & error" is how I'm going to find out for myself.

My bad. I did not notice the first set of pictures earlier in the post. Those do like to me more usable for 511 mix. You may find more of the finer dust like material in that though. In that case I would skip the peat altogether. Often I do not use any peat at all.

But the second set of pics look like a lot of work to remove the sapwood. To me it looks like it has a lot of that but you may still be able to make a usable batch of 511.

I do suggest trying to find out how much of the mix is really fine, if only to know whether you need peat at all. If you don't have a screen set up, check your strainers and colanders; the one I bought for $5 has 1/8" holes, but checking a few cups worth in something with 1/4" holes will help you get an idea of what you have.

Good luck, and have fun playing in the dirt!

hi Sandra. I've also been looking for pine bark mulch in Houston and having crummy luck.

where did you buy that bag? it looks like it's by Landscapers Pride, who is supposed to make soil amendment (aka screened pine bark fines). I haven't had a chance to go to southwest fertilizer to see if they have it.

i hve purchased some Landscapers Pride potting mix and landscapers mix the landscapers mix has pine bark fines, rice hull, and perlite. seems to be decent stuff but not exactly 5-1-1

Living Earth also has bagged product labeled as pine bark fines and they have a couple locations in Houston, but again haven't been out to see them. The Lowes by myerland sold Living Earth mulch but not pine fines. Not sure if other Lowes around the area carry the pine fines.

Sandra, how did your mix turn out?

My composted fir bark didn't work very well. After sifting out most of the fines I combined about four parts bark and one part coarse perlite. Most water drains through fast, but I'm sad to say the mix supports a significant PWT, because another cup or two of excess water comes out when I tilt the pot after it stops draining. Once I've done that most of the perched water is gone and the mix is dry about four days after watering, but I hoped for a soil that I wouldn't have to fool around with to clear excess water.

I think the problem is that the skinny pieces of bark get completely saturated and stick together while the coarse perlite is big enough that the thin bark simply fills up the spaces around it. Maybe smaller perlite would work better, but at this point I think I'll just live with it, write that bag of bark off, and find something better in the spring.

Looking back on the photos it's clear that your bark is much lighter colored than my highly composted stuff, so I'm crossing my fingers that yours made a better mix.

I think you're always going to get some extra water draining out when you tilt at 45°.

All of mine in the 5.1.1 will do that too. I wouldn't say it's an excessive amount of water, but more will definitely come out.

Thanks, Dave, that's good to know. I knew 5-1-1 can have some perched water; this is just a lot more than I think I'd get with different ingredients. In fact, I get about as much water as I do when I drain my MG Moisture Control pots, just a bit faster. Of course, the 5-1-1's PWT is much lower than the MG's and is far, far better aerated through the entire pot when drained.

It's all a learning experience!

So an update on my expeditions in finding what would work with the 5:1:1 mix in the Houston are.

I have run all over Houston in search of the Pine Bark and have discovered some that just would not work for the mixture. The products I came across looked good from just looking at the bags of mulch, but after taking a bag home....then to discover the product would not be appropriate for the mixture. I tried several places with products that were purchased from other people in the Houston area that posted their Bark mulches, only to discover the ones I purchased did not look the same as theirs. I don't know if maybe this time of year the bags of mulch I came across may have been sitting out to long and have decomposed over the months..Not sure.

Of the Pine Bark pictures I posted on this thread, I finally ended up using the Pine Bark mulch I purchased at a feed store called "Quality Feed" located of 45 N. After sifting the mulch, I decided to give this one a try and looks like my plants are doing fine in it.

For those of you in the Houston area and need further info on this place, let me know. The owner at this store even sells his own mixture of the Gritty Mix and even sells bags of Pumice at his store. His mixture is a very close mix to Al's Gritty Mix. Apparently from talking with him, he came up with his mixture for growing Bonsai... You can even get bags of Grit from here.

I will also be using big batches of 5:1:1 mix in the spring for my fruit and Avocado trees. For now, my woody container plants seem to be doing good with the mixture I mixed up with this Pine Bark Mulch.

I'm chiming in a bit late but, try looking at Bulk Sand & Gravel Companies. That's where I found mine.

Or, search out your local Orchid society and inquire about "Fine Fir Bark". (Not Orchid Mix.)

Happy Holidays,

Rob

Rob, I'd think that bark be better for gritty mix than 5-1-1 because I don't see any small particles--but that may just be the picture. I picked up some bags of orchid bark that looks just like it at one of the decent nurseries that I'll use for gritty mix.

And thanks for the link. That sieve set had been in my Amazon cart for months, but I finally broke down and bought it after reading your description. It's even better than I'd hoped, really sturdy and well put together, and it's nice to have four screens even if I don't really need all of them.

While I was at it I ordered a dust mask that actually creates a decent seal around my nose and mouth and great exhalation valves. It's supposed to hit 50 tomorrow, so I might sift the rest of my very dusty perlite over the 1/8" screen out on the porch, then rinse it so I won't have to use a mask when I use the rest of it.

Rob, I have several mulch yards near where I live. I went to check them out still in my quest to find a GOOD Pine Bark mulch that I can use for my 5:1:1 mix.

The yards I did go to did have pine mulch but it looked very similar in particle sizes as the bagged mulches I came across from local nurseries, very small in comparison to the product you have shown in your pic.

Being that I am in need of a large quantity of the PB, I can't afford to buy it in small bags like the Reptibark that is being sold at Petsmart/Petco stores. Their prices for large bags runs close to $20.00.

I am hoping that in Spring of 2017, when all the mulch comes into the big box stores has a better quality of material I can use. Being that it is so late in the year and they don't stock very much of the mulch products, when Spring hits.. I can find something then.

I haven't given up my hunt and I am hopeful something will be found eventually.

Happy Holidays to you as well.

Sandra, try Southwest Fertilizer. It's inside the loop, but they have lots of good stuff.

Ask them for the Soil Amendment by Landscaper's Pride. They had a huge pallet last month. They also have FP

Sandra, as you noticed winter is a bad time to scout for pine bark. Do you have Agway close by? In these parts (Pittsburgh) they have to order it. Although in bags, it is superb since it is mostly the right size for 511. The dust fraction is fairly small. I can dig up the numbers on proportions of the size ranges for you if you are interested. Obviously cannot beat a bulk supply in terms of cost but I find them to be quite inconsistent. But I am still looking. As you will find out eventually that no single source is reliable over time.

Litterbuggy, I always sift the PB. I sift out the small stuff with 1/8 inch screen and the large stuff using 1/2 inch screen. Have not found a 3/8 screen yet. For 511 I add some of the fines back depending on the plant. Often it is just a replacement for the peat for me. So my 511 is faster draining since it has lot less of the fines. Excess fines go into other projects in the garden.

Andi,

I am familiar with SW Fertizer. I buy different stuff from them. I went there a few weeks back and the only stuff I saw were bags of Landscapers Pride pine bark mulf, of which to me looked too small in size. I will make another trip tomorrow and see if the have "Soil Amendment".

As for an Agway, here in the state of Texas there is none to be found.. I have already researched that route as well in hopes that we did have one.

I am not giving up, though....

i went there about 4 weeks ago. they didn't have Soil Amendment outside but it was hidden. I asked them if they had it, and they said they'd go to the back to bring it out.

i only opened 1 bag of soil amendment, and all the particles were 1/8in to 1/2in. almost none of it went through my 1/8in screen

Sandra - You seem to be focusing on the term "Mulch", which really isn't what you want. Ask for PB Fines, nuggets , or ask straight out for the size you're looking for - 1/4", 1/2", 3/8" etc... Agrade of PB w/ the least amount of sap wood.

LB - This first pic is from a bag of "SoilPep" PB fines from a Bonsai nursery.

Well.... This site wont allow me to post pics right now, so I'll try later. GRRRRR!!

Rob

Keep trying, Rob, eventually the photo loader will give in.

Andi, I wonder if you could use that 'soil amendment' in a modified 5-1-1 and make up for the lack of bark fines by using more peat? Maybe Al will come by and render an opinion.

I actually do think I'll have better luck in the spring. We have a Ewing's Landscaping and a John Deere and several Agway-type farm supply stores in town, so surely one of them will have something I can use!

LB - yes you can make up for lack of real fine bark with a bit more peat. So may be 5-1-1.5 should work for bark-perlite-peat mix.

Bark should be sifted when it fairly on the dry side. Otherwise the small stuff clings to the bigger pieces.

5-1-1 uses pine bark 1/8 to 1/2in. Fines smaller than 1/8 will reduce drainage by raising pwt

Edit: I was confused. Dust up to 3/8 or 1/2in

I believe Al's 511 calls for dust to 3/8. Dust to 1/2 will also work. Although if the dust fraction is too much then it defeats the purpose. So the assumption is that dust fraction is fairly small. How small? Not sure. Perhaps less than 15% should work. That will keep larger sized components above 75% (bark + perlite) of the final mix.

Andi,

So, I called SW Fert. and asked if they have "Soil Amendment" he proceeds to give me names of Azomite & other stuff I never heard of.

After going through my spew about wanting a product with pine... he then tells me he has something but they call it " Soil Conditioner " .

So, now another quest to head out there and see what this is... keeping my fingers crossed that what he calls Soil Conditioner is what can be used. He did specify that it contained Pine particles. We shall see

That sounds like what I bought. I posted pictures of the soil in another thread.

Here is the description on the manufacturer website:

"Landscapers Pride Soil Conditioner is a screened pine product. It can be mixed with sandy soils to improve structure, compacted soils to loosen, or with regular soil to maintain proper texture."

I made one small.batch of 5-1-1 but probably will make 3-1-1 for the spring due to needing more water retention since this is Houston

Sandra,

What will you be making with the pine bark Fines? The coming spring will be my first try using pbf mix and I'm wondering about others experience in the Houston region. One other user commented that we may need more water retention

I posted quotes about this by Al upthread on 10/28 @ 10:36; I've got a whole file of stuff pulled from the 5-1-1 threads I found in forum searches.

I suspect that Al's advice evolved over time, but the bottom line seems to be that total fines under 1/8" should be less than 20% or so of the mix, but that if peat will be used you should limit pine fines to 10% of the mix...or the total pine bark...but the two numbers would be about the same because the bark fines make up so much of the mix.

To go on a little rant, I'm not sure why we need particles any smaller than 1/8" in 5-1-1. Peat should slow drainage enough and allow the bark to absorb moisture, but maybe the mix would be too fast without it.

LB: Once I used a 510 mix without peat and without the PB fines below 1/8 for a bougainvillea. I had to water it twice a day even at 80F temp. But the growth was stunning. 511 has quite a bit of larger stuff between 1/4 and 1/2 and that leads to larger air spaces. These larger air spaces will be subject to wild swings in moisture content of that empty space and the fine feeder roots can easily stress out. The smaller particles fill a bit of those spaces to negate some of that moisture loss.

The larger components of 511 makes it last a little longer and in a pinch can be used for two seasons. I have tried 510 mix with particles in 1/8-1/4 range. In my limited experiments it performs superior to regular 511 but it is a strictly one season mix.

In the gritty mix the particles are in a tighter range between 1/8 and 1/4 and the spaces are smaller and evenly distributed. It is a far superior mix but for larger plants the weight becomes an issue.

Andi,

I have 3 Avocado trees that I wanted to place in those large wine barrel pots from Lowes and I also have a good size mango tree that needs to be placed in a larger pot as well. I know now is not too much of a good time to be doing this, but I also have a greenhouse that keeps my plants warm through our crazy winters.

I will be winter sowing vegetables in a few weeks and then they will be transplanted into container buckets in the Spring time. For these reasons is why I was looking to find a good quality Bark I could use for all my plants.

TOC, I assume you mean 5 parts bark (without dust), no peat, and one part perlite, which would definitely need lots of watering, probably more than a 5-1-1 mix with peat and without bark dust.

Sandra, the reason to repot at midsummer is day length, not temperature, because light duration is what increases energy production to help the plants recover faster. You might do fine if you provided bright enough light for summer-day-length durations, but that's just a guess.

I think I'm in business.

Pine Bark - "SoilPep"

Less than 50% bark, very small, but good for GM.

The bark I got from the "Bulk Sand & Gravel" Co. sifted down to 3 sizes. (It was called their "Supreme Mix" or something.)

The first two would be ok for 5:1:1, the smallest for Bonsai.

Josh has a video on youtube showing his method of making 5:1:1. Instead of peat, he uses "FoxFarm Ocean Forest" Potting Soil, Pine Bark, and "Coarse Perlite".

So yes, there's a lot of different names for Pine Bark additives, but ideally you want something w/ the least amount of sap wood, and fine particles. Al Say's the fines are alright, but you never know what they are. The "Gritty Mix", and the "5:1:1 can be used in those ratios, but they're really just a basic recipe for you to convert into a soil mix adapted for your environment.

The ratios aren't written in stone. Dirt? Maybe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixp_UI6AfwU

Rob

P.S. Pine Bark is always the hardest ingredient to find. Good luck, and don't stop looking. I found my supplier during the Winter time.

It was Winter, in the mid to upper 30's. On yet another search for the elusive Pine Bark, my Mom even accompanied me.

There was a big storm moving in while we were there, and it snowed that night. So luckily I got dry bark. lol

Rob

LB: You are right - 510 with no peat and no PB fines. Super fast draining mix. Very hard to keep up with watering.

Rob: That is a perfect pile of bark. In my car I can fit 16 5 gallon buckets if I can find a source like that. I have hauled wood chips and regular mulch a few times.

I went twice. You can see in the first (undisturbed) & last pics above where I was scooping from. I was doing a hard target search for areas with the least amount of sap wood, and in some places the bark was damp just a few inch's in. As my Mom watched me; she thought I was crazy. To her (especially in the cold), bark is bark!

Ahhh, Good times.

Rob