With the changes in the ownership and format of the website over the years and with the current popularity of social media and blogs, many of the former old time professional members have drifted elsewhere :-) There are still a few that show up from time to time (Nandina is one....me also) but most of the others have been gone for ages. Kind of a shame, as we used to generate some pretty good discussions!! And with far less of a focus on free design services, which are seldom the slightest bit successful anyway, due to distance and lack of understanding of the physicalities of the actual site. And often unappreciated at that.

The good news is there is now a new crop of professionals that visit, some very regularly, and offer some great advice. But those long, involved discussions about design principles, dilemmas and techniques unfortunately seem to be a thing of the past.

"... which are seldom the slightest bit successful ..."

I know I am a primary perpetrator of what you call "free design" but I must disagree with you here, Gardengal, on this claim. To the contrary, I don't believe that what I am giving is "free design." It is free IDEAS. And the reason I put them in graphic form is for teaching and education. Most others giving advice here tend to stick with verbal advice. But when it comes to discussing layout and arrangement, it is absolutely true that a picture is worth a thousand words and it is this efficiency I am trying to accomplish. Many times, when I hear OPs describe their existing conditions, I am struck by how unintelligible the descriptions are. One can't even begin to understand what is on the site and how everything fits together. In the same regard, while some of the advice given verbally is good, solid advice, often when it comes to the categories of layout and arrangement, it can be extremely difficult to understand and often the reader ends up with a lack of clarity. I can't imagine that words alone are more helpful than a picture. All I'm doing is trying to make ideas easier to understand. As far as how you measure success of the communication, I'm not sure. I measure it by if the recipient seems to appreciate, understand and be thankful for it ... which I would say happens a lot. Then there are a few cases where people have come back after a period of time and demonstrated what they have accomplished. They don't in every case follow the advice, but in those cases where they have, they have made some great progress. Nor do I imagine in ANY case that anyone has suffered because of seeing ideas in pictorial form. (Though this claim has been made in the past by some of those people who no longer visit!)

As a designer, imagine that you could not use graphics. Describe the landscape you wish to have built and hand that description to the contractor as their guide to performing the work. How is that going to work out? I think it would be exasperating!

It's the case that giving advice here is not cumulative. People don't know what has been said before so they cannot build on it. Therefore, I am often in the position of needing to repeat myself, ad nauseum. Honestly, it is too troublesome to say all the basics from scratch each and every time someone needs to hear it. Therefore, unless something is necessary for making progress within the thread, I tend to let it go. One of those things is that with almost every free idea I give, it is necessary for the OP to work out the details in PLAN VIEW. I'm giving an idea based on one perspective and not every important thing will show or can be shown. Neither can all possible options be shown in a single picture. The OP must take the idea and make into something that works and is useful and pleasing to them. I am helping the OP, not doing their work for them. It is up to them to do their own work and I am not obligated to prod them into doing it.

If one would review the sum of sketches I submit, they would see a clear and obvious theme that is consistent from one to the next. I am not trying to convey how a person can have the most unusual, unique, personalized, elaborate, palace-worthy landscape. I'm merely trying to convey a few very simple ideas that would improve landscapes, in general, over what is considered the accepted standard (which I have a generally low opinion of.)

"Many of the questions seem to be so particular that they could only be addressed on site."

Well, Ojo, it is actually through the magic of pictures and some words that the site comes to the forum. There are literally thousands of questions that have been answered satisfactorily through this method.

I seem to have opened a can of worms although I was not attacking anyone or their approach to answering questions my observation was based on one or two visits a few years back and comparing that with what I see here now.

Ojo, it is not that you opened a can of worms or that I feel "attacked." You said something I disagreed with ("... questions could only be addressed on site ... ") and I am merely giving argument that that may not be the case. That's what happens on a forum. People say things and other people react and even other people evaluate and judge without commenting at all. As well, I am explaining where and how I disagree with a claim that Gardengal made. But it doesn't mean there is any disrespect or dislike for her, or that I am saying anything with hostile intentions. We just disagree. She's making her point and I'm making my counterpoint. It's what is done in a forum. Other than that, I respect Gardengal for all the great advice -- some of it is tremendous, actually -- that she gives. (The way I look at it is that much of her advice saves me time since I only need to say, "ditto," if anything at all.)

I meant no offence - I didn't see any pf your drawings on the page I looked at and if I was interested I would search some out

no offense taken. Toward anyone.

I don't find Garden Web on most of the forums anywhere near the same as it was a few years ago. It seems to have developed a "bully" mentality. There are a few I still enjoy, but landscaping is not one of them.

Yard, I hope you know how much I admire your generous contributions to this forum and I DO believe they add considerable value. And I'm sure quite a lot of help for those who do elect to heed your advice. My comments were really directed more at the homeowner posters who - for the most part - DO post here looking for free design help. I am sure the vast majority of them are looking for far more than the suggestions or words of wisdom you offer..........and it has been that way since I first joined these forums nearly 20 years ago :-) And while a few do come back and post the "afters" of the changes they have made, most do not. And just as many seem to argue with the suggestions made or ignore or overlook the fundamental aspects of landscape design - like layout and flow - over the 'finishings' of plant selection and placement. How many times have you/we suggested redoing a walkway to enlarge, enhance or make more welcoming in approach only to be summarily denounced as not in "the budget for this year" when that is obviously what the immediate focus should be on??

It may be that I approach the notion of landscape design a bit differently, but I really have difficulty in understanding how it can be successfully accomplished by remote. There is so much so dependent on a visual, in-person survey of the property that simply cannot be replaced with photographs. And a satisfactory and purposeful layout is front and center - the actual design "plan" - with the specific plant selection and layout pretty much incidental to the overall plan. And that is lacking in maybe 85% of the requests for "design" assistance that this forum receives.

Ojo, do not be alarmed or feel concerned about this back and forth and difference of opinion/outlook :-)) This is exactly the type of discussion I miss from the old days!! I think it is a benefit to all concerned when we communicate our approaches to how we view our craft. It helps to clarify and confirm - at least in our own minds if no one else - our attitudes and design sensibilites.

"It seems to have developed a "bully" mentality. There are a few I still enjoy, but landscaping is not one of them."

Then why did you feel the need to post here? If you feel that 'bullying' is a common issue now on this forum, then you must not have participated or visited much in the "old days" :-) Many of the previous professional members did not hold back at all in their criticisms and while I would not term it bullying per se, they did have a pretty sharp tongue. Or typing fingers :-)

That IS what I mean gardengal and I thought it was an answer to the OP ojo as to why people have left. You have just made my point.

There is big difference between bullying and constructive criticism, even if it is not couched in the most diplomatic terms :-) An integral and essential part of the design process is the critique - designers are extremely used to it and tend to develop thick skins in its application. Personally, there is nothing I have seen posted on this forum recently that could possibly be construed as bullying........you may interpret things differently.

Thanks for the kind words. I know what you mean, G-gal, about what seems like some laziness and ingratitude on the part of some OPs looking for "free advice." I chalk that up to the fact that some of them are so "green" about the subject of landscape that they don't know how to think about it or form the questions. I can't really begrudge them for that. And this is a place where one would expect counsel at no cost. It seems that some few just doesn't know it has limitations. Most don't seem to know there is another necessary step beyond where I try to take them .... ("Thank you! I will go buy plants now!") .... that Ideas must be converted into the form of a plan.

Most people who come here don't have the expectation of a high-dollar, professional result. Nevertheless, if they employ advice from the forum, they are likely to improve upon what they otherwise would have done. If they have expectations of professional results, they would need to go to a professional and have the resources to do it. Or they would need a proclivity for design and some serious dedication to fast learning and the ability to distinguish good from bad. Another contingent may be those who come here only to get help thinking through ideas, and get them organized in their own mind before they engage with a professional. It doesn't matter to me as I'm just trying to get my same simple, little ideas across to whoever will listen.

Insofar as design by remote being possible or not, I absolutely believe it is. I dabble in it occasionally, with good results, but it has limitations. A client may have needs too complex to be accomplished. And what information the client is capable of providing is a main drawback. Most are not compliant without laborious, detailed, hand-holding instructions. For me, it is much more time consuming in order to get to the end result. And on account of that, presently, I don't view it as economically viable. It's just do-able. That said, I believe that with future technological advances, combined with the miracle of the Internet, it will happen and it will become a standard operating procedure. This is a nut I would love to crack but am convinced that it's going to be tougher than it first appears, and the nutcracker will be an expensive one. Just my take.

Gardengal, I say "double ditto"! What Sherry is calling bullying right here is not bullying at all, but a mere friendly explanation! Gardengal's explanation is right on about the constructive criticism process. It's necessary. People come here trying to convince others that bad ideas are good. They must be set straight. Actually, often they cannot be set straight, but future readers should know that that is how it went down. I will admit that on a few occasions I've said things in not the kindest way but it is not habitual or ill-intended. Sometimes it's a poor attempt at humor (which never seems to translate properly properly on the Web ... why is that ....??) or a male PMS moment. That's life.

LOL!! Despite all my strong feelings to the contrary, I am about to undertake my first remote design.......who'd a thunk?? I am only doing so as a personal favor to the owner of the nursery I am associated with - he has a very good hunting/fishing friend living in Alaska (!?!) that wants to outdo his neighbor re: landscaping :-) Fortunately it is in a very mild coastal location not terrifically different from my own climate otherwise, I wouldn't have a clue what plants might work best. And I have been presented with a pretty full compliment of photographs of the site but have yet to meet my client. That in fact will not happen until I turn over the design(s) when he comes to town for a visit at Christmas!

This is NOT an ideal situation under any circumstances in my opinion but one does what one must to keep the boss (sort of) happy.

Despite advancing technology, I still have sincere reservations about how well designing by remote will work. The two major components that I believe technology cannot easily replace is the personal interaction with the client - Skype just doesn't cut it - and the actual in-person site assessment.

I was going to ask if people preferred the new to the old but Sherry's post about bullying settles that. I see the accusation of bullying thrown at people with a strong POV over on Hot Topics too, There does appear to be a difference between 2 pro's talking and the publics conception of this subject.

If anywhere on GW, the Hot Topics forum generates some bullying. But that is mostly due to the tone and words used as well as the subject matter, which by definition is controversial. But it is a far cry from the discourse and exchanges of opinions that one finds with the landscape design discussions!

A huge help in remote design, GG, is, as we see here, photos that show complete, connected scenes from far left to far right, or 180*s .... not just snapshots coming from every which angle. In addition, it must be batteries of scenes taken from several/many different viewpoints. Depending on the size and complexity of the site it can run from 50, to more than a couple hundred photos, all of which must be reassembled into panoramas. It's time consuming but having it is necessary and a huge help. And computer/camera generated panoramas I find to be worthless due to distortion and severe shrinkage. Of course it's EASIER to visit the site. The client must provide quality photos. Grade issues are another problem entirely. Not many clients have capability to work with that unless only a minor suggestion is needed.

lol! The "good old days" were something of a mixed bag, as I recall. I still have archived threads from 2008 that included inkognito, laag, and other. Since we were building a house at the time, I was a regular in many Gardenweb forums and Landscaping definitely had a reputation for "not suffering fools" at all. I lurked a long time before posting in there.

The previous poster who mentioned "bullying" does not have a clue as to what that really looks like in one of these forums if she thinks gardengal's polite commentary fits into that category. To this day, I have a marked appreciation and respect for gardengal and her many helpful, knowledgeable comments. I am sorry I never got to know nandina or Yardvaark, who also seem very knowledgeable.

It was nice to have the old threads like the one that was done on a master gardening plan that lasted for six months. However, it is my personal feeling that the Lanscaping forum has become more professional, friendly, and helpful than it was in the past.

Here are some of my favorite posts from the past:

"I am so glad I
found this forum. I need a landscape really, really fast that is
low-maintenance, comes in different pretty colors
but is, you know, adaptable. It has to be rugged and tough, because I have
three kids and five dogs, but also
elegant enough for when I entertain corporate clients. I don’t have much time
for weeding or watering, so please factor
that in. Did I mention I need this ASAP? What do you have for me?"

Concrete.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

" I understand that members here are a "friggin’ pain" and often "loony." I am also told that people here are cold and mean and will make me pay for advice. Is there any truth to this?"

Sadly, there is. We tell people that so that they will stop pestering us with requests to landscape their lot, which allows us to actually get in some gardening time. Ok, just kidding. Actually, the terms you mention are corruptions by lay persons of the words "frigipan" and "loamy." These refer to soil condition, not our members. Well, at least not to most of them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Why don’t people respond to my posts?"

There could be several reasons
why people do not respond to your posts, but the most likely one is that you
are probably not using correct Landscape Design
language. For instance, unlike other forums, we do not "post" a reply here, we
"compost." In the same vein, witticisms here are not
"humorous," they are "humus." Please consult the Landscape
Design forum glossary for more information.

Another reason people may
not be responding to your posts… erhm… composts is that they may be too vague. Please note that this is a Landscape Design
forum, not a Landscape DIY forum. If you write in asking our long-suffering denizens to
landscape your front yard for you, without any sign of effort or forethought on
your part, they will not find this
humus. They will ignore you and think you are a cad…. or not. It depends on who answers your post first.
To avoid this fate, a) post only on the full moon when all but our most
tolerant members are out enjoying a
bacchanal or b) do some research, apply some thought, and ask more focused
questions.

I have picked up a lot of great tips here from Yardvark and Gardengal plus others and didn't frequent this forum in the 'good old days'.

I thank all of the professionals that offer advice here for free.

Me too, PKponder. I have lurked and posted here for many many years and now understand (I think) basic landscape concepts. BUT, 1) understanding basic landscaping concepts and 2) the ABILITY to apply same to one's own yard are two very different things. It's easy to see someone else's problems, but not one's own. I live in an extremely rural area of Missouri and would never have searched for a professional landscaper (I'm not even sure there IS one less than 100 miles from here) to come help me.

After we bought this house about 4 years ago, I posted a picture and yardvaark very generously worked his magic through both word explanations as well as posting a picture of my house with his suggestions in place. Oh my! For some reason, the issues seem really clear when seen through someone else's eyes!

No, he made no particular plant/tree/shrub suggestions, just shapes and sizes strategically placed to make my yard look cohesive and attractive. I continue to work towards his general plan - I have his sketch saved on my desktop - and am forever grateful for the free help.

I try to pay this forward as best I can. I am not a pro, but I do know a lot about perennials and shrubs hardy to my area that I can share. I have seeds and divisions I can share, too.

One problem that seems to stand out as a read these responses to my OP and that is, as is often the case what words mean. If I were a professional Landscape designer and saw a forum with that heading I would expect to find questions and answers pertaining to design I know am a pedant so I don't need that pointing out but in these responses gardening - landscaping - and design have all been lumped together as one subject. I think this is how most people see it incidentally but maybe those people mentioned above who no longer post here saw it differently. This my take away anyway.

I am thankful for this forum. I did not know the difference between gardening and landscaping design prior to one year ago. I am trying to catch up. Read everything I can.

On my first post, I was expecting responses to suggest a tweak and was told that the whole idea was WRONG. I was not offended. Did not feel bullied. I couldn't change that project, but each after that are a little better. Yardvaark's renderings very helpful, his posts with Alison and Craig on their projects show the evolution of a plan, and are educational tools. I have copied Yardvaard's drawing of the "Basic Plan" and refer to it almost DAILY. Used it in our condo meeting to try to succinctly get the idea across. Yardvaark - royalty???

Yardvaark, Gardengal, NHBabs, Kitasei, Emmarene, and so many others teach me something new everyday. It is usually on Landscape Design, sometimes gardening or landscaping.

I also study and post to Trees, Shrubs, Annual, Perennial, Bulbs forums for specifics where some of the above mentioned plus others are very responsive.

Am I a landscape designer? NO! Am I doing a better job? i hope so.

Thank you for this forum

April

I really enjoy this forum. I not only had my questions answered by Yardvaark, but I also love to read the questions and answers posted by others. I have learned a lot from this forum!

I am not a landscape designer, but over many years of reading here I've learned an enormous amount about design in contrast to gardening. I really appreciate all those willing to tutor and discuss both basic principles of design and the actual application of design to specific landscapes. I also really enjoy when someone posts photos of the process and final product as follow-ups to the before photos since seeing the transformations allows me to see possibilities in my own yard and landscape.

I am going through severe withdrawal due to the decreased activity. I wish there was a Landscape Design for the feeble course that I could take over the winter.

It appears that some of the old LD forum members do still stop by here, if not to post or comment, at least to lurk :-) One of the "likes" on a an upthread posting was from a well-respected and extremely talented forum member who we see very occasionally posting here. Would be great if these folks would see their way to contributing again but suspect that the usual stuff asked/presented on these forums exceeds their tolerance levels.

Dalton, there are any number of decent landscape design texts catering to the homeowner (rather than the professionals) that are available online or at your larger bookstores that may help relieve your winter boredom :-) And could very well generate additional design methodology questions that could stimulate some interesting dialog. LMK if you would like some titles.

Gardengal - Thank you, I would love some suggestions! I promise to try to generate some methodology questions.

We don't have a 5 year or overall plan including vetted problems and goals, we have more of an area by area. So I assume #1 on the agenda will be a plotting of the whole area? I have survey maps, google earth was just by a few months ago, some areas hand plotted on paper. 5 acres. 5 bldgs. Slopes. Or will area by area do?

Dalton, if you are new to the design process, 5 acres is a LOT to try and deal with at once!! That amount of real estate is a challenge for even very experienced designers. I'd suggest you tackle it it section by section, prioritizing what areas should be attacked first, but always keeping in mind how everything may mesh together down the road. At the very least I might map out the whole property and use this very basic base map to do your goal setting and arranging of spaces that may be dedicated to activities other than just a cultivated garden. But then focus on the most cultivated areas - generally those immediately surrounding your home - to approach first and do your initial design planning.

There's a bunch of DIY landscape design books out there that will get you educated in the process and start you in the right direction. The ones I've listed just happen to be a few I have on hand and are all available through Amazon. I'm sure there's others and someone may chime in with ones that have worked well for them.

Better Homes and Gardens, New Complete Guide to Landscaping.

Creative Home Landscaping, Ortho Books

Fine Gardening Design Guides, Landscaping Your Home.

And while the titles of this series always makes me cringe, I would also suggest Landscaping for Dummies or Landscaping Basics for Dummies :-)) I haven't looked at these two personally but the entire 'For Dummies' series is really very good regardless of subject and despite the unfortunate name!!

All three of the texts I listed (and I'd guess the two Dummies texts also) will go through the initial design process in much the same format - base map, site evaluation and analysis, bubble diagram, conceptual plan(s) and then preliminary and final plan. Going through all of these is cumbersome and time consuming, especially the first four steps, but I'd urge you not to skip steps or shortchange the process. It is really a very valuable exercise and one that you will learn a great deal from.

btw, the three books I listed will also discuss various landscaping materials and processes (i.e., installing types of hardscapes) as well as providing plant lists. If I had to pick one I favored most, I'd probably go with the BHG text - I've used it in the design classes I've taught.

Well, that assignment should keep you busy through winter!! And we'll expect to hear back from you on your progress and with a bunch of questions ;-))

gardengal - Do not think your post was in vain. I am moving forward slowly.