I think everyone has a different situation. For Vladimir, it made total sense to get a greenhouse based on his growing conditions. Steve and Nomen and Pranab, I very much appreciate the insights because my husband and I are NOT handy - lol. (I think that's what you meant to type). All of the maintenance would fall on me (I don't have much time at all) or I'd have to pay someone. I also do not have a big yard at all. Our lot is about .2 acres and my kids need the precious space to run and play...plus we have a swing set. I do however have space and light in my house (although a bit crowded). My sunroom has essentially become an attached greenhouse with the extra lights. I can manage with that and a few other areas. Steve, I liked your comment and am always interested in learning, so you did not need to delete it. We all have to work with our growing conditions, life situations, and budget to make things work.

That is why I suggest not getting a greenhouse if the money is not their to run a greenhouse of "usable" size unless you really like to tinker with mechanics.

I hate to see people get overwhelmed because they bit off to much and burned out. If we look at past citrus'ers that went gangbusters we notice that most of them are gone. There are a bunch of oldies that stayed well with in their comfort level and are still here and those that got overwhelmed and are gone. I don't know if they still have their trees or not, but I hope they do and are just silent now.

Quoted : My sunroom has essentially become an attached greenhouse with the extra lights.

In concern of your plant budget and plant success I ask questions With or with out sky lights? Sky lights would provide additional and ample lighting in return for less bulb burning time less bulb burning time equates to lower out of pocket each month. If no sky lights On brightest winter days the closer to the glass the brighter and stronger IR rays the plant will feel and remain warm enough for a longer duration of time than one may think

From Central Mass attached are 180 inch wide window sill space X 2 windows during winter X 3 180 inch from Mid spring to early fall.

That's correct the hoop house is a job and at times it requires more than one person to handle the task it needs but the inside of this adobe is a hobby Today and for every day untill mid March it avgs takes three days of out side colder days with lesser brighter sun to cool (even the smaller) INSIDE sill sitting pots here with no added lighting. At times I turn an entire tray to re warm by moving them inward The closer to sill pots by a 180 degrees are now deeper inside resulting in the warmer pots once deeper inside are becoming cooler when closer to the sill

An attached sun room equates to meaning your sunroom is a shared heat system that still requires times of ventilation.

If I told you where my citrus are right now and how little sun and added lighting and added heat they are getting you'd be in shock. Just know that they are inside my house and are very budget low

Ques what, i don't have a greenhouse and i don't want one. I have too many other things to worry about. Growing fruits the proper way is just part of my agenda. Now here is the sad part, all my fruit producing tree's are all flowering and my whole house smells pretty good to say the least.

One question I have always had is, is supplemental light in a greenhouse really necessary for citrus in winter? With my plan for a greenhouse I just need bombproof heat protection and want to maximize the natural sun as much as possible. It is incredibly sunny here in winter for the most part, so would supplemental light really be necessary for my trees to either sustain growth or just hold til spring?

It depends on what you want your plants to do in the winter I think Hobby. Warmth and high light will keep them growing. Lower temps and light and they will go semi-dormant. You will know if you need supplemental light in the winter if you want to keep your plants actively growing. It just will not be sunny and warm in there and your trees will just stop growing and will start to shed leaves and flowers they can no longer support with the reduced light and temperatures. My greenhouse, although it is in the open air, does not get much sun during these short day months. Not only are the days short but many are very cloudy where I live from November to March. It is surprising how shadows from buildings and trees a block away will cast long shadows on the greenhouse because the sun is so low in the sky. But, there is more light in there than in my house where I often have to turn on the lights to see well during the day. It is seldom bright and sunny when I am in the greenhouse during these months, but those warm and bright hours are so wonderful! It was a surprise to me when I first built mine that it was not always bright and sunny during the winter months. Some days are sunny and bright for a couple of hours, but most are not. However, I still enjoy being in there on those cloudy days as I have citrus, camellias, orchids, hibiscus, etc. in full bloom while my outdoor gardens are dormant. My trees react to the short, cloudy periods by slowly dropping leaves they can no longer support with the reduced light levels. They also drop much of their fruitlets and flowers during the shortest days. But by mid February they again start blooming, sending out new leaf growth, and produce little fruitlets again as the days get longer. The past few years I have added some supplemental lighting a couple hours before sunrise and several hours after sunset and I think the additional hours of light help extend their blooming period. Maybe if I added more lumens I could extend it more. But for now this is how much I choose to spend on supplemental lighting. This year though we have had several weeks of cloudy days in a row and much lower light levels and I have had much more leaf drop on some of my trees since. I think some trees are just more sensitive to the lower light levels as some of my trees drop leaves more than others. Also it takes longer for the growing medium to dry out even using the 5-1-1 mix. I like to have my trees bloom during the winter months so I try to keep the roots above 55°F but below 68°F to give them their needed cool hours. I think my supplemental lighting helps to prolong their blooming period but it is not as bright as sunny daylight nor as warm. It probably is not necessary for me to run the supplemental lighting but I often like to go in there at night to enjoy the fragrance while I check to make sure everything is working correctly and clean up some leaf drop I might not have had time to do during the day. I love my greenhouse and now wonder why I delayed building it for a long while. Yes, there is maintenance work, sometimes panic when a furnace stops working on a cold weekend or holiday night when no help is available, but I love being in there enjoying my plants. It can be an expensive hobby, but you just need to rearrange your priorities in life if you can. It is hard to generalize about growing in a greenhouse as I think each one's conditions is different and where you live and how it is situated on your site makes a big difference. You mostly learn by experience how and what you can grow in it and decide what you expect of your plants. To me it has been worth my time and expense over the past 25 years and has given me so many pleasurable hours for my plants and myself. I have been constantly reading about greenhouse operation and growing for years before and after I built mine. The learning is part of the fun. Comparing other people's experiences is helpful but what they do does not always work for you in your greenhouse. Observing your plants and how they react to different growing conditons can sometimes be heartbreaking when you lose one but so rewarding when you get things right and your plants thrive.

Cory

I get about the same amount of sun as Cory. I do not provide supplemental light in my GH and keep the temps at 60F. Some trees have dropped leaves but many have blossomed and are setting fruit. Some are also putting out new growth.

After reading a lot, but not all of the threads, I thought it might be helpful to throw in the experiences I've had the past few years. I live outside Denver, Co and put a 16x32, 28' tall greenhouse off my kitchen. It is passive solar, 8' heat sink 32x8, all low E double pane glass, 2 sides, 6 skylights, 3 operable, and a couple of mid level windows on NE wall. Temp. control is not an issue. Stays above 45 degrees in temps down to 10 below and below 90 in temps above 100 in the summer just by opening the 3 skylights. It has a dirt floor and trees are planted in the soil. The biggest problem is lighting. As well as humidity control. Citrus needs a minimum of 8 hours/day direct sunlight, according to experts I've read, and my experience would verify that. In colder temps the humidity creates a perfect environment for mold or fungus, but can be controlled with scoria as a mulch. I have attached a photo of my lime tree to show that this time of year it is important to keep things correct for its' needs. This tree has been blooming for 3 months, and still is, and is setting fruit as well. Allowing the change in hours of light/day and temps. make things work as nature intended. Following the fertilizing schedule the tree prefers helps as well. This tree was planted three and one half years ago and started at two and one half feet tall. It is now, 12-15' tall and in the last 2 mo.'s has put on more than 40 limes and counting. I have lost my lemon, and avocado trees as well as one orange. A second orange is starting to do better now that I have added grow lights to supplement the lack of direct sunlight. Jury is still out however.

Dww, that is a nice setup! Beautiful tree! Thank you for sharing your experience and nice to meet you. That lime tree looks incredibly healthy.

Nomen, let me answer your questions: the room does not have a skylight because there is another room (my son's room) directly above it. However, it has windows on three sides and receives lots of light from the east and west. When it gets too warm in there, I just open up a few of the windows (they are all casement windows). It has a separate heat pump/AC unit, but I have only turned it on once this winter when it was nearing single digits. There is a sliding glass door to my house that I can shut or open some to roughly control the temps. I have been leaving it partly open some this winter and it usually is 55-56 in the mornings, but once I turn on the lights, it rises to the 60s. I have a digital thermometer that records the high and low for a 24 hour period along with RH. Right now it is 68 and the low last night was 61 (it has been warm here). The RH now is 49%. There is also a ceeling fan that I can turn on to circulate the air although I don't like using it because we have parakeets that fly around in the afternoon and I am afraid my kids will forget to turn off the fan. If I just open two windows on opposite sides of the room, the air flow is fine. The trees in there are quite happy. I have cheap floor lamps with 23 watt 6500 cfl bulbs to help with lighting the interior trees. I also have a few trees adjacent to my kitchen in another sunroom/breakfast nook with more casement windows...then I have four trees in my son's room right above the sunroom where there are also lots of windows. I bought six lights today to improve a few darker areas. I calculated out for now with 42, 23 watt cfls running for 12 hours/day that it will cost me just over $8/month and my electric bill is right on target with that. We also had solar panels recently installed that may help a bit, although my electric bill is really not bad at all.

This will be my final design. The top will be 2 feet higher next fall. There will be a south vertical glass wall that the current top comes down to rest on. Final size 22 Ft by 6 Ft with a sloped roof going fro 7 Ft to 11 Ft. The south wall will be fixed in place as well as the East and West end caps. The roof will be set in place in fall and removed in spring.

FUKUSHU----------------------FUKUSHU------------------------MEIWA----------------------NZL

-------------------SWEETLEE TANGERINE----------------------------------NZL---------------------

Larger trees in north row to be espaliered on north wall with 10 Ft head room

NZL==New Zealand lemonade.

6b Steve

That's a great plan Steve!!

Thanks Laura

It will take about 8 hours to set up and 3 hours to take down each year. It will be a big savings from the more than 40 hours it now takes.

Thanks for the bulb info: I calculated an additional $ 11.69 per moth at .10 per KW this total does not include grid delivery rates that apply and only covers apx cost of bulbs ( not including heaters and fan(s)). A PLUS or a maybe just to be prepared Assuming you had your AC on every day of the warmer summer months 24 X 7 the cost of bulbs replacing the AC electric use is less cost per month. Yes that is correct any number of solar panels will off set some of the operating cost through out a house the higher the number of solar panels also decreases out of pocket cost to the grid.

You are adding 996 of added wattage for 12 hours per day Not to be confused as an equal value of BTU's per 12 hours a day as the actual BTU would actually be more while bulbs are on Understand that BTU is a measurement of thermal units moving in the air ( Note your fans) wattage is heat As both heat and moving air combined are a measurement of BTU. Any given X value of BTU is the assigned number to indicate a value of how both heat and air move efficiently in a specified size of space.

You also stated this : It has a separate heat pump/AC unit..... You have an air handling unit somewhere in your house ( most likely it's in the attic ) and one or more air compressors ( at ground level somewhere close to an exterior wall that's not to close to any exit entry door ) In short concerning this type of heat Nice .. very nice

I mentioned that I don't use any CFL bulbs before and get zero wattage from them . If your wanting to be more in the budget awareness mode look into longer lasting slightly higher priced LED bulbs for a lower out of pocket cost over the ( Hmmm) long run ? Anyhoo it's less time than one might think.

From me even with LED It's still not possible to match the outside sun light and climatic conditions that citrus are capable of handing inside of a home. Or to say why wake a sleeping baby ? Both are a challenge I choose not to take if knowing I will fail.

PS I don't have that many citrus here just the three unless to count the olive then it's five

I pay about $850 per year to be hooked up on the energy grid. I pay about$800 per year on all the gas and electric cost plus the transportation cost of that energy. For me to use more electric on my plants is of very little increase in my utility cost so I go ahead and pay the low price for the extra heat and electric. There is no reason to be environmental or conserve in Cincinnati. Once you pay the enormous monthly hook up fees you might as well burn, burn, burn because it is only a slightly higher charge for the additional energy.

^6b Steve

If your looking for good grow LED lighting this is where I get mine. www.talltreesled.com

I have been using these for over three years. Effective and not expensive to operate.

Thanks dww, those are nice lights but I am using living areas that will return to normal once March hits so I can't hang anything from the ceiling.

I was referencing the Mini-E-29W, which is a fixture bulb as opposed to the larger hanging fixtures.

Seems the ( either attached or unattached) hot house plans have changed for the OP by reasoning of budget, space or other brings more inside growing info to the thread

https://www.amazon.com/Grow-Light-Bulb-Vemotix-Plant/dp/B01HU4PAN0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1483066433&sr=8-2&keywords=led+bulbs+vemotix

Although not as self cooling efficient and are a little more lower end in comparison to the top shelf of good better best of the E-29 led are tip top high. The current link would also be just as portable as the E 29 led during your time of need and would cost the same to operate

Whats really on that slightly lower shelf of tip top high of BEST. IMO Example one red diode may dull down it's fullest effective spectrum brightness sooner while all other red diodes remain effective or one or more blue diode might be less effective sooner than all the other diodes I cant determine at this time as to what diode will do what sooner or later as they have only been in operation for two winter seasons and are performing as stated on the page

Amazon: It's a little difficult for me to trust them big guys 100% @ 100% of the time for every product that they offer and would lean toward favoring the E 29 LED as the better buy even though it is at a higher price you get more Example two Chances are if one or more from amazon had to be exchanged for reason of a diode failure OR maybe the built in self cooling slows down or dies out a pro-rated charge may be in the finer print of the warranty. I don't read fine print and wont play this for that with the big guy knowing there are still enough smaller guys that are willing to do more with out the this for that BS They NEED TO.

I think you should try at least two of either Amazon LED OR the E 29 LED as a tester. Keep em both casting near any particular but bigger citrus of yours replacing two of the current bulbs you have casting on it now with the same timing. Also consider that the LEDs suggested are built in self cooling you might want to try an area that is not so close to the operating fan(s) I think you will be happy enough to go all in later at either price.

I have been quietly skulking in the shadows watching this discussion :>) I understand that extra rules are necessary in more densely populated areas because my lack of knowledge or attention to detail in my project could lead to a fire that can impact my neighbors. That being said, I still think it's a shame that regulations have gotten to the point that they have a significant impact on a family's decision to build a greenhouse....and certainly affects the cost of contractors. Ok, that's off my shoulders now and I feel much better! Laura, I saw that you had a list of reasons why the greenhouse just didn't make sense now but I think you can keep some of your costs down by doing some research or enlisting a friend who knows some basics about electrical circuits. You might also consider doing some basic framing and have glass panes installed in framed openings rather than buying pre-fab windows. Clearly, those options won't solve the yard space points you recognized but it's food for thought for future and for others who may be hunting ideas here.

All good ideas John! Perhaps in the future I'll consider it again.

Good info everyone! Thanks Cory and V, I didn't think I would need supplemental light. It is SO bright here even in winter, you need sunglasses everyday even when it's overcast because of the big sky. I come from the West Coast originally and it is so dark and gloomy there in comparison, additional lighting there would be ideal I think.

And awesome set up Colorado person! That is amazing!

hobbyartisan: What is the daylight duration during winter? From what I gather you folks can have pretty short days and supplemental lighting would be helpful. You probably also get much colder during winter and so heating/insulation could be an issue too. In my opinion a lean-to greenhouse is a better option.

The poor guys on the greenhouse forum right here next door would love to hear from you guys. They don't get heartily anything to read. I really feel sory for them.

That is because citrus trees are so problematic and hard to grow that this is the only forum that gets enough entries to make it worth reading or posting to.

come-on Ponc,I started with Page about 8 years ago and now have about 24 tree's in all sizes, having kill one yet.

Bob Don't take my comment to seriously It was made mainly for laughs. However my statement on citrus trees contains a lot of truth to it. The average life of a potted citrus tree is about 1 year. This is largely because they don't go dormant in the cold months which causes root/water conflicts. I lost over 300 trees during my learning curve. I am holding rock solid with near zero problems. Best of luck with your trees.

6b Steve

Steve, where did you get your figure for the average life of a potted citrus?

Hey Vladimir. I think he means the average life of a tree is 1 year for most beginners and those not educated to care for them properly. In fact I'm going to say less than that. That was the average life span of mine until I discovered the containers forums!! Happy new year to all

Steve, i got you bead but i know what you are saying. People buy tree's whatever tree and them on auto, thinking nothing happens to them.

Before i buy a tree i find out what they need and if i cannot grow it to full maturity i will not get it.That said i did bought a couple subtropicals fruit tree's that i can make them grow with all the knowledge i collected through the years of collecting info.

Mike, where have you been? You've been pretty quiet of late. Are you OK?

Mike got my statement as I meant for it. If the potted trees do well there is no reason it can't last close to a century

Hi tropic, currently in the darkest days of the year we have light between 830 and 530... so 9 hours of pretty full light. I agree that more light would be helpful but if I am planning a greenhouse that can stave off -40 degree cold then all my energies and dollars have to be focussed on that and supplemental lighting becomes less important. If people can grow citrus outside on the dark and gloomy west coast then I certainly can too without lights in a greenhouse.

Good idea about the lean-to but we are on 40 acres and want to spread out a bit! Also I have a wackload of trees so I will need a big one. I plan to wait for a greenhouse until we can tie it into a house reno so we may end up with some type of sunroom for some of my trees.

It is so helpful to hear everyone's ideas and feedback.

Hobby When temps fall that low no one can feel the difference between -40F and -40C so I wont ask.

6b Steve

Hobby: I was thinking lot less light than that. 9 hrs is pretty good.If I had time/money I would consider a longish structure where front half facing sun is glazed with panels and the back half is insulated extremely well. I was also thinking that the back part can be separate room for storage, workshop, etc. So there would be a wall (uninsulated) running along the centre peak lengthwise and painted white to reflect all the light back. I can think of many uses of the room in the back including overwintering dormant outdoor potted plants, housing the heating system and others. You could easily fit a 1000+gallon rainwater storage that can also act as large thermal mass to stabilize the temperature. Add a couple of solar panels to keep batteries charged and supply power to all sensors, alarms, etc.

Every winter, like probably everyone else, I dream of a greenhouse. So I spend a good bit of time thinking about it and finding out what others are doing/thinking. We converted our front porch to a sort of a sun room. It is 9x13 and it is still not enough. I really enjoy it since we get to see the plants while we are home. BTW we also get may be 9 hrs of sun because of our urban setting. But effectively we get even less because about about 60% is glass and the rest is opaque. So it also has 900W of light. But the plants could easily add another 1000W :(

the difference between -40F and -40C is. - 40 C = is = to apx 3 F colder than -40 F ( with zero wind chill factor).

At these temps( -40 C or -40 F) there is no need to ask. ANY citrus (and all of it's soil) is frozen regardless of how many of hours of artificial or natural lighting it got.

If one flips -40 C and - 40 F to the positive side ( + 40 C + 40 F) most anyone would feel a very big difference as + 40 F is still subject to wind chill factors and + 40 C isn't. IMO most anyone would notice a MUCH longer natural lighting time at 40 C as well.

I imagine most would be in some concern with citrus being more difficult to maintain with constant 40 F temps for prolonged times than warmer and longer lighting times @ 40 C.

Good suggestions Tropic, actually I had been kicking around the idea of having it built into a hill. So the long side would face southwest and be backed into a hill. I was thinking that would really help protect from our whipping northerly winter winds as well as provide some ground insulation? We have the perfect hill at the back of the property right by our shop, which would be perfect for a rainwater catchment system. Good suggestion on that!

I have a huge sunroom too but it only provides about 10 degrees C protection from the outside temps so useless for me as a year round grow room. I called to get an estimate to upgrade to insulated glass and I think the guy said it would be crazy, like 50k!! I bet yours is great, perfect for your winters! We would love to see a pic of yours!

I'm with you Steve, exactly my thinking :).

Vladimir, I appreciate your kind thoughts and in asking where I have been..Shows that someone can always miss you around here)

I have been around but everyone is doing such a good job with helping out here, I see no need for me to take part at times, especially when tired unless I see some kind of info given that could harm a tree or incorrect info...Good job and thanks again.

Hobby, I have a greenhouse in my back yard, 16 X 20 double poly inflated, roll up sides, hoop structure. I shut it down end of Nov. and fire it up first of March. We have a wood boiler so a water line runs to the greenhouse and thru a radiator with a furnace fan installed behind it to circulate the heat. You are right about the light, no supplement needed, but it takes too much wood to heat at minus 40 so I have to move my citrus into the basement for the 4 months.

I worked in a commercial tree farm greenhouse for quite a few years, we had both plastic and glass. For my money I would not use glass ( at least for the roof) in our area. We were constantly replacing panes and dealing with falling glass in those houses till finally they were eliminated all together. I am not sure if the ground heaving with the extreme cold and so slight lifting and twisting of the metal that holds the glass contributed to the problem, or if it was the style of the structure, but it was not fun in there in the spring with the new seedlings to tend.

Your idea of into the hill sounds great, I would love one like that, beauty and function.

Tropic, great suggestion about building it down a bit... however, your suggestion about building below the frost line is rather adorable... the ground can freeze here like 8 feet down depending on snowpack lol ;). But I could still see an advantage to a bit of ground insulation so a couple feet down is a great idea.

Hi Ubro! Thanks so much great tips! Can you post a pic of your hoop house someday? I would love to see it! I will definitely be getting some type of commercial greenhouse in my future so for now I will dream and consider all of your and others' great suggestions like Laura.

In the meantime, I have my 2 hobby sized greenhouses for late spring/early fall and want to build a recycled window greenhouse like Jinny's as well. Actually this weekend we hit paydirt and found a guy getting rid of a great assortment of windows which we grabbed. A lot of them are the same so building the frame will be easier.

I don't think pics are posting properly right now.

It doesn't have to beautiful to work

Greenhouse and bucket lights · More Info

Last two pics did not show up at all.

Hobby, I was afraid you are going to tell me where the frost line is? Wow 8ft. You folks must deep foundations to avoid the frost heave. I wonder if a foundation for a greenhouse at say 2-3 ft will work. I have no idea. In any case, no harm dreaming.

tropic: deep foundations to avoid the frost heave

After perking an area the depth of a foundation depends on two things

1) Primarily the weight load on top A heavier load on top would require a deeper foundation or better known as a deeper footing

2) Frost line depth relative to a persons zone.

Walls are on the footing and are flush - 1/4 inch inner to it's outer ends

Depth of any solid form foundation is considered as operational with FOUR inch solid footing buried Six inches lower than the frost line and would have at least SIX foot walls but the same depth footing would also allow for eight to ten foot walls of foundation depending on the height weight and size of the structure that's going to be on the foundation.

Options for a no wall height are also considered but would be considered for single floor slabs and would need to be deeper than four inches Not considered in this comment is the possible use of an elevated foundation such as an exterior porch would have.

All aside the avg depth of any foundation is considered operational @ four to six inches below any frost line relative to the structure on it.

Perking is a controlled operation( test) of how quickly water moves to avoid any heaving ,sinking, swelling of a foundation and it's structure.

http://greenhouseinthesnow.com/index.html

Thought this link may be of interest to everyone, particularly Hobbyartisan. Beneath the pictures is an article about their inground geothermal greenhouse.

Cory

The greenhouse is best at about 2 feet below the ground. The pots don't need light. From this point up you are best with glass for heat and light for the foliage. Since no light come from the north The greenhouse should go up against the south wall of your warm house. This will cut the heating costs in half or more.

Thanks for the link - very informative. Bolivians have a name for it - "Walipini". Good source of interesting ideas. The link Cory posted a very sophisticated version harnessing geothermal energy. I have looked at these over the years for learning purposes but beyond my ability to invest.

@cory: I've been meaning to stop by his operation, but I've just never gotten around to it... maybe this summer. Either way, I have some major competition for the title of "The Nebraska Citrus Grower"!

Props to him for managing to pull this off. I wonder how his setup stands up to grapefruit-sized hail, though. I guess what's why he didn't use glass!

-Tom